Boat charter cancelled - refund not forthcoming
Discussion
My OH and I are members of a diving club, and we arranged a boat charter for a group of ten in Wales. The firm we booked with have been operating for a while, mostly doing training, but they have expanded their operations and now have two boats. They advertise online and you can book individual spaces on the boat. We booked the whole boat for two days.
About three weeks before the booking, they contacted us to suggest we rearrange it for another weekend, as the visibility was going to be bad. I do not know anybody who can predict this three weeks in advance, so there was clearly another reason. We told them we still wanted to keep that date. As we got closer to the date of the booking, the forecast was showing strong winds, so we had to accept their offer to rearrange.
When the date of the rearranged booking was approaching, they contacted us again with the same story about visibility. Again, we said we wanted to go ahead. They then said the wind would be too strong. The forecast this time was showing next to no wind at all, so we insisted on keeping the booking.
The dive operator has a very impressive internet and social media profile, but we have been hearing bad things about them. We had a feeling they might not fulfil our booking, so we met everybody at our club the Thursday before and shared our concerns.
We had been given instruction to arrive at their premises at 8:30 am on Saturday for a 9:30 ropes-off. We were there at 8:20 and there was nobody there. 8:30 came and still nobody. We started trying to call them as we got to 9:00 and got no answer.
At 9:05, a van arrived with two women in it. One was the business owner, and the other she introduced as the skipper. We were told to drive to the marina to unload kit onto trolleys, and bring the cars back to park.
What happened next was nothing short of a pantomime. First of all, they could not find their own boat. She had to make a phone call to find out where it was. We began loading kit onto it and noticed there were no lines to tie stuff to seats, and she did not know where she wanted us to store our second cylinder.
The boat is quite small, and has a tiny wheelhouse. They both got in the wheelhouse and shut the door behind them, which seemed odd. They emerged about 15 minutes later and told us the engine won't start. They demonstrated turning the ignition to the on position, waiting for the buzzer to stop, and pressing the start button. The engine did not crank. They kept doing this repeatedly and did not lift the engine cover once..
We began unloading our kit, and when we came back for the second trolley load, she told us they had found a loose cable under the seat and got the engine running. She told us they did not want to take divers out until it had been tested. Before leaving, she agreed to a refund and asked us to email her with bank details.
On the 6th September, she sent the following email:
"Please find attached for refund of dive spaces 2nd & 3rd September. Please expect this to enter you account within the next 5 working days."
The attached document is a remittance for the refund of 8 spaces over two days. The total amount is £900. We have paid £1,125.
Two people did not come along on the day of the booking as they had colds, so it is clear she has not included them. We disagree with this as we booked the whole boat. How we fill those spaces is irrelevant, and she would not have been able to deliver the service had they been present.
We have emailed her to challenge this and advise her we have still not been paid the amount in the remittance. She now says she has told the accountant to refund us, and we will be paid the amount stated by the 29th September.
We have sent a formal letter before action giving her 14 days to refund us. That deadline is the 2nd October.
The letter was sent by Royal Mail Signed For and as an attachment to an email, in which we have made it clear our preference is to settle the matter amicably. She has responded stating her reasons for only a partial refund:
The owner's mother is shown on the website as a co-director and skipper. The woman she introduced as skipper is also listed as such on the website, as is a youngish lad. The owner says she is a Yachtmaster and Advanced Powerboat Instructor.
I sent a message to a WhatsApp group for dive clubs and was put in contact with somebody who booked with them two months prior to us. They pulled the same stunt as us, but he is a HGV mechanic, and offered his assistance. He told me there was no power at the solenoid on the starter motor, so he hot-wired it and got it going. He said the young lad who was skippering did not have a clue what he was doing. He dropped divers in with the prop spinning, which as well as the obvious danger, means they are separated on the surface if there is a delay between them dropping in. On the way back into the marina, he hit the outboard motor of a boat in a neighbouring berth. He also said the life raft was in the wheelhouse and out of date.
I heard somebody operating a boat in Scotland was booked with them. We know him very well, and he has an excellent operation. He is a member of a club where he is based and they booked with this outfit. I gave him a call to warn him what to expect, and he said he had been having doubts too. They cancelled on them, saying it was too windy, which he says was not the case. I am also aware she married the girl who she said was our skipper the same day as his booking.
I suspect the people they say are skippers do not have commercial endorsements, and/or the boat is not coded as required under the MCA's Small Commercial Vessel scheme. Both the bloke with a boat in the same marina and the guy from the other club commented that there is no way the skippers they saw in action could hold a commercial endorsement.
I am not expecting our refund (or the partial refund they have offered), so it is looking like County Court is likely.
The rest of the group are clearly annoyed, and one person in particular is extremely upset. Some have said they want compensating for their travel and accommodation, and other expenses. The terms and conditions on their website state:
" If Rob-Dog Divers is required to cancel a booking for any reason it will use reasonable endeavours to provide a suitable alternative booking date for the customer. Lying-b
d Divers liability in this instance shall be limited to the cost of the booking and in the event a suitable alternative booking date cannot be agreed it shall refund the cost of the booking to the customer."
The bit in bold is fairly standard, and I would have thought perfectly enforceable in most circumstances, however, our argument is that they were fully aware they could not fulfil our booking well in advance, so are liable for our other losses.
It is difficult for me to prove that they do not have the minimum skipper qualifications and commercial coding, as there is no public record.
I am currently pondering our next steps. I was considering a response whereby I put my suspicions to them and ask them to prove they have the requisite skipper qualifications and coding. I am sure they will refuse.
If this went to county court, could we make an application for the court to rule they must provide this information?
If they did, and we could prove they could not have legally put to sea, is it likely we would be awarded damages for our other expenses?
If they are taking money for bookings they know they cannot fulfil, is this not a criminal matter too?
Any other advice would be appreciated.
About three weeks before the booking, they contacted us to suggest we rearrange it for another weekend, as the visibility was going to be bad. I do not know anybody who can predict this three weeks in advance, so there was clearly another reason. We told them we still wanted to keep that date. As we got closer to the date of the booking, the forecast was showing strong winds, so we had to accept their offer to rearrange.
When the date of the rearranged booking was approaching, they contacted us again with the same story about visibility. Again, we said we wanted to go ahead. They then said the wind would be too strong. The forecast this time was showing next to no wind at all, so we insisted on keeping the booking.
The dive operator has a very impressive internet and social media profile, but we have been hearing bad things about them. We had a feeling they might not fulfil our booking, so we met everybody at our club the Thursday before and shared our concerns.
We had been given instruction to arrive at their premises at 8:30 am on Saturday for a 9:30 ropes-off. We were there at 8:20 and there was nobody there. 8:30 came and still nobody. We started trying to call them as we got to 9:00 and got no answer.
At 9:05, a van arrived with two women in it. One was the business owner, and the other she introduced as the skipper. We were told to drive to the marina to unload kit onto trolleys, and bring the cars back to park.
What happened next was nothing short of a pantomime. First of all, they could not find their own boat. She had to make a phone call to find out where it was. We began loading kit onto it and noticed there were no lines to tie stuff to seats, and she did not know where she wanted us to store our second cylinder.
The boat is quite small, and has a tiny wheelhouse. They both got in the wheelhouse and shut the door behind them, which seemed odd. They emerged about 15 minutes later and told us the engine won't start. They demonstrated turning the ignition to the on position, waiting for the buzzer to stop, and pressing the start button. The engine did not crank. They kept doing this repeatedly and did not lift the engine cover once..
We began unloading our kit, and when we came back for the second trolley load, she told us they had found a loose cable under the seat and got the engine running. She told us they did not want to take divers out until it had been tested. Before leaving, she agreed to a refund and asked us to email her with bank details.
On the 6th September, she sent the following email:
"Please find attached for refund of dive spaces 2nd & 3rd September. Please expect this to enter you account within the next 5 working days."
The attached document is a remittance for the refund of 8 spaces over two days. The total amount is £900. We have paid £1,125.
Two people did not come along on the day of the booking as they had colds, so it is clear she has not included them. We disagree with this as we booked the whole boat. How we fill those spaces is irrelevant, and she would not have been able to deliver the service had they been present.
We have emailed her to challenge this and advise her we have still not been paid the amount in the remittance. She now says she has told the accountant to refund us, and we will be paid the amount stated by the 29th September.
We have sent a formal letter before action giving her 14 days to refund us. That deadline is the 2nd October.
The letter was sent by Royal Mail Signed For and as an attachment to an email, in which we have made it clear our preference is to settle the matter amicably. She has responded stating her reasons for only a partial refund:
Lying tt said:
t said: Having looked at what was sent - the amount would have been calculated on the number that was logged going out on the boat for the dive plan on that day. This was listed as 7 and therefore was the reason why 7 spaces had been refunded for both days.
The option was given for the second day to be refunded to you as a good will gesture for the inconvenience of the first day, despite the vessel being fully operational having undergone checks throughout the cancelled day. In general this would usually have been given as credit.
We can either refund you as per the notice for the 7 spaces on each day, or we can refund the 7 spaces for the first day and credit the group for the 2nd day in full to rebook. The option is your choice, please let me know so I can amend this and amend the refund from being sent to you.
I'm not sure why it is now seven; there were eight present. The option was given for the second day to be refunded to you as a good will gesture for the inconvenience of the first day, despite the vessel being fully operational having undergone checks throughout the cancelled day. In general this would usually have been given as credit.
We can either refund you as per the notice for the 7 spaces on each day, or we can refund the 7 spaces for the first day and credit the group for the 2nd day in full to rebook. The option is your choice, please let me know so I can amend this and amend the refund from being sent to you.
Our Response said:
Thank you for your response.
I do not agree with your statements nor believe them to be a legitimate basis on which to withhold our refund.
I confirmed in writing on the 30-AUG-2023 we were retaining the whole boat for 10 divers, as per the two payments made to Lying bd Divers for the weekend. How the group chose to utilise those spaces was entirely up to us and had no impact on your delivery of the booked service nor would have resulted in any loss of revenue to you were we not to utilise them in full. I therefore reiterate our position that it is unreasonable for you to withhold payment for any part of the booking.
In addition, you stated on the 02-SEP-2023 that, not knowing the cause of the fault which prevented you from operating the boat on the 02-SEP-2023 and the suspected vandalism, you thought it was unlikely within the limited time available that the boat would be functioning and safe to take to sea on the 03-SEP-2023. On that basis you would refund us both days. A credit was not offered at the time and we accepted the refund.
We do not wish to accept a credit now and simply wish to be refunded our costs for a booking which you were unable to fulfil.
I do not agree with your statements nor believe them to be a legitimate basis on which to withhold our refund.
I confirmed in writing on the 30-AUG-2023 we were retaining the whole boat for 10 divers, as per the two payments made to Lying b
d Divers for the weekend. How the group chose to utilise those spaces was entirely up to us and had no impact on your delivery of the booked service nor would have resulted in any loss of revenue to you were we not to utilise them in full. I therefore reiterate our position that it is unreasonable for you to withhold payment for any part of the booking.In addition, you stated on the 02-SEP-2023 that, not knowing the cause of the fault which prevented you from operating the boat on the 02-SEP-2023 and the suspected vandalism, you thought it was unlikely within the limited time available that the boat would be functioning and safe to take to sea on the 03-SEP-2023. On that basis you would refund us both days. A credit was not offered at the time and we accepted the refund.
We do not wish to accept a credit now and simply wish to be refunded our costs for a booking which you were unable to fulfil.
Lying tt said:
t said: Being the skipper on the day, my suggestion was that we did not take the vessel out despite me getting it operation on the first day. I stated that we would take the vessel out and undergo checks to ensure that it was fit for the following day - which is was. I gave you the option to either await for us to confirm this in the evening or cancel - which you chose to cancel.
The cancellation would be for those involved in the booking, who were actually there on site. We will not continue to negotiate the matter, as I have clearly outlined our position.
The amount stated on the remittance will be refunded to you, and cover the spaces refunded for those who were there for both days. You can expect this to be within your account as mentioned by the 29th from our accountants.
Over the course of this month, I have been hearing a few stories about them. I know somebody who berths a small sailing boat in the same marina, and he is also a diving instructor. I rang him and asked if he knew anything about a certain dive outfit operating out of the same marina. He then proceeded to give me a load of horror stories, and told me they were berthed on the same pontoon as him. The week before our booking, the owner's mother was at the helm and hit at least three other boats, putting a big gouge in one of them. He told me they have been given the nickname the 'Pinball Wizards', as they just bounce off everything in the marina. The cancellation would be for those involved in the booking, who were actually there on site. We will not continue to negotiate the matter, as I have clearly outlined our position.
The amount stated on the remittance will be refunded to you, and cover the spaces refunded for those who were there for both days. You can expect this to be within your account as mentioned by the 29th from our accountants.
The owner's mother is shown on the website as a co-director and skipper. The woman she introduced as skipper is also listed as such on the website, as is a youngish lad. The owner says she is a Yachtmaster and Advanced Powerboat Instructor.
I sent a message to a WhatsApp group for dive clubs and was put in contact with somebody who booked with them two months prior to us. They pulled the same stunt as us, but he is a HGV mechanic, and offered his assistance. He told me there was no power at the solenoid on the starter motor, so he hot-wired it and got it going. He said the young lad who was skippering did not have a clue what he was doing. He dropped divers in with the prop spinning, which as well as the obvious danger, means they are separated on the surface if there is a delay between them dropping in. On the way back into the marina, he hit the outboard motor of a boat in a neighbouring berth. He also said the life raft was in the wheelhouse and out of date.
I heard somebody operating a boat in Scotland was booked with them. We know him very well, and he has an excellent operation. He is a member of a club where he is based and they booked with this outfit. I gave him a call to warn him what to expect, and he said he had been having doubts too. They cancelled on them, saying it was too windy, which he says was not the case. I am also aware she married the girl who she said was our skipper the same day as his booking.
I suspect the people they say are skippers do not have commercial endorsements, and/or the boat is not coded as required under the MCA's Small Commercial Vessel scheme. Both the bloke with a boat in the same marina and the guy from the other club commented that there is no way the skippers they saw in action could hold a commercial endorsement.
I am not expecting our refund (or the partial refund they have offered), so it is looking like County Court is likely.
The rest of the group are clearly annoyed, and one person in particular is extremely upset. Some have said they want compensating for their travel and accommodation, and other expenses. The terms and conditions on their website state:
" If Rob-Dog Divers is required to cancel a booking for any reason it will use reasonable endeavours to provide a suitable alternative booking date for the customer. Lying-b
d Divers liability in this instance shall be limited to the cost of the booking and in the event a suitable alternative booking date cannot be agreed it shall refund the cost of the booking to the customer."The bit in bold is fairly standard, and I would have thought perfectly enforceable in most circumstances, however, our argument is that they were fully aware they could not fulfil our booking well in advance, so are liable for our other losses.
It is difficult for me to prove that they do not have the minimum skipper qualifications and commercial coding, as there is no public record.
I am currently pondering our next steps. I was considering a response whereby I put my suspicions to them and ask them to prove they have the requisite skipper qualifications and coding. I am sure they will refuse.
If this went to county court, could we make an application for the court to rule they must provide this information?
If they did, and we could prove they could not have legally put to sea, is it likely we would be awarded damages for our other expenses?
If they are taking money for bookings they know they cannot fulfil, is this not a criminal matter too?
Any other advice would be appreciated.
Edit: Accidently named the lying bds.
ds.Edited by Ganglandboss on Monday 25th September 14:58
You appear to know the next steps - you've essentially done the Letter Before Action, and your next step would be to issue proceedings.
As soon as you get a judgement, make sure you get this escalated to the high court and "proper" bailiffs involved - they have an asset that it looks like could be seized, but many others will be doing the same as you so the quicker you act the sooner you can get a judgement!
As soon as you get a judgement, make sure you get this escalated to the high court and "proper" bailiffs involved - they have an asset that it looks like could be seized, but many others will be doing the same as you so the quicker you act the sooner you can get a judgement!
I would get the £900 quid and cut my losses.
The normal reason for people pissing about when it comes to providing refunds is that they don't have the money.
I strongly suspect if you were to take legal action these are the sorts of people who would not even show up at court. When you have the judgement they won't pay because they can't afford to.
Take whatever you can get back and don't overthink it. Chalk it up to experience and move on. If they're serious about the £900 and you actually get that back then the difference isn't anything to cry about.
Put out warnings about these people when the opportunity comes up.
The normal reason for people pissing about when it comes to providing refunds is that they don't have the money.
I strongly suspect if you were to take legal action these are the sorts of people who would not even show up at court. When you have the judgement they won't pay because they can't afford to.
Take whatever you can get back and don't overthink it. Chalk it up to experience and move on. If they're serious about the £900 and you actually get that back then the difference isn't anything to cry about.
Put out warnings about these people when the opportunity comes up.
ingenieur said:
I would get the £900 quid and cut my losses.
The normal reason for people pissing about when it comes to providing refunds is that they don't have the money.
I strongly suspect if you were to take legal action these are the sorts of people who would not even show up at court. When you have the judgement they won't pay because they can't afford to.
Take whatever you can get back and don't overthink it. Chalk it up to experience and move on. If they're serious about the £900 and you actually get that back then the difference isn't anything to cry about.
Put out warnings about these people when the opportunity comes up.
If I've read it right, £900 as opposed to £1125, the above suggestion is spot on ( assuming you can actually get the £900)The normal reason for people pissing about when it comes to providing refunds is that they don't have the money.
I strongly suspect if you were to take legal action these are the sorts of people who would not even show up at court. When you have the judgement they won't pay because they can't afford to.
Take whatever you can get back and don't overthink it. Chalk it up to experience and move on. If they're serious about the £900 and you actually get that back then the difference isn't anything to cry about.
Put out warnings about these people when the opportunity comes up.
Look at the disaster they seem to be, who else have they messed about, not paid etc.
Be first in the queue because if what you write is accurate, they queue will be very long, very quickly and they don't sound like a gilt edged company
I think you'd be crazy to go to court over £225.
I would bank the £900.
Then I would be talking to trading standards, the MCA and anyone else who can make their lives a misery.
After checking that your own club's position is absolutely bullet proof in terms of HSE best practice etc.
I'm not sure that the Dive Leader or whatever isn't reposnsible for ensuring the boat is run properly etc?
A quiet word with the right people in BSAC or whoever your national body is might be in order.
I would bank the £900.
Then I would be talking to trading standards, the MCA and anyone else who can make their lives a misery.
After checking that your own club's position is absolutely bullet proof in terms of HSE best practice etc.
I'm not sure that the Dive Leader or whatever isn't reposnsible for ensuring the boat is run properly etc?
A quiet word with the right people in BSAC or whoever your national body is might be in order.
Ganglandboss said:
My OH and I are members of a diving club, and we arranged a boat charter for a group of ten in Wales. The firm we booked with have been operating for a while, mostly doing training, but they have expanded their operations and now have two boats. They advertise online and you can book individual spaces on the boat. We booked the whole boat for two days.
About three weeks before the booking, they contacted us to suggest we rearrange it for another weekend, as the visibility was going to be bad. I do not know anybody who can predict this three weeks in advance, so there was clearly another reason. We told them we still wanted to keep that date. As we got closer to the date of the booking, the forecast was showing strong winds, so we had to accept their offer to rearrange.
When the date of the rearranged booking was approaching, they contacted us again with the same story about visibility. Again, we said we wanted to go ahead. They then said the wind would be too strong. The forecast this time was showing next to no wind at all, so we insisted on keeping the booking.
The dive operator has a very impressive internet and social media profile, but we have been hearing bad things about them. We had a feeling they might not fulfil our booking, so we met everybody at our club the Thursday before and shared our concerns.
We had been given instruction to arrive at their premises at 8:30 am on Saturday for a 9:30 ropes-off. We were there at 8:20 and there was nobody there. 8:30 came and still nobody. We started trying to call them as we got to 9:00 and got no answer.
At 9:05, a van arrived with two women in it. One was the business owner, and the other she introduced as the skipper. We were told to drive to the marina to unload kit onto trolleys, and bring the cars back to park.
What happened next was nothing short of a pantomime. First of all, they could not find their own boat. She had to make a phone call to find out where it was. We began loading kit onto it and noticed there were no lines to tie stuff to seats, and she did not know where she wanted us to store our second cylinder.
The boat is quite small, and has a tiny wheelhouse. They both got in the wheelhouse and shut the door behind them, which seemed odd. They emerged about 15 minutes later and told us the engine won't start. They demonstrated turning the ignition to the on position, waiting for the buzzer to stop, and pressing the start button. The engine did not crank. They kept doing this repeatedly and did not lift the engine cover once..
We began unloading our kit, and when we came back for the second trolley load, she told us they had found a loose cable under the seat and got the engine running. She told us they did not want to take divers out until it had been tested. Before leaving, she agreed to a refund and asked us to email her with bank details.
On the 6th September, she sent the following email:
"Please find attached for refund of dive spaces 2nd & 3rd September. Please expect this to enter you account within the next 5 working days."
The attached document is a remittance for the refund of 8 spaces over two days. The total amount is £900. We have paid £1,125.
Two people did not come along on the day of the booking as they had colds, so it is clear she has not included them. We disagree with this as we booked the whole boat. How we fill those spaces is irrelevant, and she would not have been able to deliver the service had they been present.
We have emailed her to challenge this and advise her we have still not been paid the amount in the remittance. She now says she has told the accountant to refund us, and we will be paid the amount stated by the 29th September.
We have sent a formal letter before action giving her 14 days to refund us. That deadline is the 2nd October.
The letter was sent by Royal Mail Signed For and as an attachment to an email, in which we have made it clear our preference is to settle the matter amicably. She has responded stating her reasons for only a partial refund:
The owner's mother is shown on the website as a co-director and skipper. The woman she introduced as skipper is also listed as such on the website, as is a youngish lad. The owner says she is a Yachtmaster and Advanced Powerboat Instructor.
I sent a message to a WhatsApp group for dive clubs and was put in contact with somebody who booked with them two months prior to us. They pulled the same stunt as us, but he is a HGV mechanic, and offered his assistance. He told me there was no power at the solenoid on the starter motor, so he hot-wired it and got it going. He said the young lad who was skippering did not have a clue what he was doing. He dropped divers in with the prop spinning, which as well as the obvious danger, means they are separated on the surface if there is a delay between them dropping in. On the way back into the marina, he hit the outboard motor of a boat in a neighbouring berth. He also said the life raft was in the wheelhouse and out of date.
I heard somebody operating a boat in Scotland was booked with them. We know him very well, and he has an excellent operation. He is a member of a club where he is based and they booked with this outfit. I gave him a call to warn him what to expect, and he said he had been having doubts too. They cancelled on them, saying it was too windy, which he says was not the case. I am also aware she married the girl who she said was our skipper the same day as his booking.
I suspect the people they say are skippers do not have commercial endorsements, and/or the boat is not coded as required under the MCA's Small Commercial Vessel scheme. Both the bloke with a boat in the same marina and the guy from the other club commented that there is no way the skippers they saw in action could hold a commercial endorsement.
I am not expecting our refund (or the partial refund they have offered), so it is looking like County Court is likely.
The rest of the group are clearly annoyed, and one person in particular is extremely upset. Some have said they want compensating for their travel and accommodation, and other expenses. The terms and conditions on their website state:
" If Rob-Dog Divers is required to cancel a booking for any reason it will use reasonable endeavours to provide a suitable alternative booking date for the customer. Lying-bd Divers liability in this instance shall be limited to the cost of the booking and in the event a suitable alternative booking date cannot be agreed it shall refund the cost of the booking to the customer."
The bit in bold is fairly standard, and I would have thought perfectly enforceable in most circumstances, however, our argument is that they were fully aware they could not fulfil our booking well in advance, so are liable for our other losses.
It is difficult for me to prove that they do not have the minimum skipper qualifications and commercial coding, as there is no public record.
I am currently pondering our next steps. I was considering a response whereby I put my suspicions to them and ask them to prove they have the requisite skipper qualifications and coding. I am sure they will refuse.
If this went to county court, could we make an application for the court to rule they must provide this information?
If they did, and we could prove they could not have legally put to sea, is it likely we would be awarded damages for our other expenses?
If they are taking money for bookings they know they cannot fulfil, is this not a criminal matter too?
Any other advice would be appreciated.
Any chance of a summary?About three weeks before the booking, they contacted us to suggest we rearrange it for another weekend, as the visibility was going to be bad. I do not know anybody who can predict this three weeks in advance, so there was clearly another reason. We told them we still wanted to keep that date. As we got closer to the date of the booking, the forecast was showing strong winds, so we had to accept their offer to rearrange.
When the date of the rearranged booking was approaching, they contacted us again with the same story about visibility. Again, we said we wanted to go ahead. They then said the wind would be too strong. The forecast this time was showing next to no wind at all, so we insisted on keeping the booking.
The dive operator has a very impressive internet and social media profile, but we have been hearing bad things about them. We had a feeling they might not fulfil our booking, so we met everybody at our club the Thursday before and shared our concerns.
We had been given instruction to arrive at their premises at 8:30 am on Saturday for a 9:30 ropes-off. We were there at 8:20 and there was nobody there. 8:30 came and still nobody. We started trying to call them as we got to 9:00 and got no answer.
At 9:05, a van arrived with two women in it. One was the business owner, and the other she introduced as the skipper. We were told to drive to the marina to unload kit onto trolleys, and bring the cars back to park.
What happened next was nothing short of a pantomime. First of all, they could not find their own boat. She had to make a phone call to find out where it was. We began loading kit onto it and noticed there were no lines to tie stuff to seats, and she did not know where she wanted us to store our second cylinder.
The boat is quite small, and has a tiny wheelhouse. They both got in the wheelhouse and shut the door behind them, which seemed odd. They emerged about 15 minutes later and told us the engine won't start. They demonstrated turning the ignition to the on position, waiting for the buzzer to stop, and pressing the start button. The engine did not crank. They kept doing this repeatedly and did not lift the engine cover once..
We began unloading our kit, and when we came back for the second trolley load, she told us they had found a loose cable under the seat and got the engine running. She told us they did not want to take divers out until it had been tested. Before leaving, she agreed to a refund and asked us to email her with bank details.
On the 6th September, she sent the following email:
"Please find attached for refund of dive spaces 2nd & 3rd September. Please expect this to enter you account within the next 5 working days."
The attached document is a remittance for the refund of 8 spaces over two days. The total amount is £900. We have paid £1,125.
Two people did not come along on the day of the booking as they had colds, so it is clear she has not included them. We disagree with this as we booked the whole boat. How we fill those spaces is irrelevant, and she would not have been able to deliver the service had they been present.
We have emailed her to challenge this and advise her we have still not been paid the amount in the remittance. She now says she has told the accountant to refund us, and we will be paid the amount stated by the 29th September.
We have sent a formal letter before action giving her 14 days to refund us. That deadline is the 2nd October.
The letter was sent by Royal Mail Signed For and as an attachment to an email, in which we have made it clear our preference is to settle the matter amicably. She has responded stating her reasons for only a partial refund:
Lying tt said:
t said: Having looked at what was sent - the amount would have been calculated on the number that was logged going out on the boat for the dive plan on that day. This was listed as 7 and therefore was the reason why 7 spaces had been refunded for both days.
The option was given for the second day to be refunded to you as a good will gesture for the inconvenience of the first day, despite the vessel being fully operational having undergone checks throughout the cancelled day. In general this would usually have been given as credit.
We can either refund you as per the notice for the 7 spaces on each day, or we can refund the 7 spaces for the first day and credit the group for the 2nd day in full to rebook. The option is your choice, please let me know so I can amend this and amend the refund from being sent to you.
I'm not sure why it is now seven; there were eight present. The option was given for the second day to be refunded to you as a good will gesture for the inconvenience of the first day, despite the vessel being fully operational having undergone checks throughout the cancelled day. In general this would usually have been given as credit.
We can either refund you as per the notice for the 7 spaces on each day, or we can refund the 7 spaces for the first day and credit the group for the 2nd day in full to rebook. The option is your choice, please let me know so I can amend this and amend the refund from being sent to you.
Our Response said:
Thank you for your response.
I do not agree with your statements nor believe them to be a legitimate basis on which to withhold our refund.
I confirmed in writing on the 30-AUG-2023 we were retaining the whole boat for 10 divers, as per the two payments made to Lying bd Divers for the weekend. How the group chose to utilise those spaces was entirely up to us and had no impact on your delivery of the booked service nor would have resulted in any loss of revenue to you were we not to utilise them in full. I therefore reiterate our position that it is unreasonable for you to withhold payment for any part of the booking.
In addition, you stated on the 02-SEP-2023 that, not knowing the cause of the fault which prevented you from operating the boat on the 02-SEP-2023 and the suspected vandalism, you thought it was unlikely within the limited time available that the boat would be functioning and safe to take to sea on the 03-SEP-2023. On that basis you would refund us both days. A credit was not offered at the time and we accepted the refund.
We do not wish to accept a credit now and simply wish to be refunded our costs for a booking which you were unable to fulfil.
I do not agree with your statements nor believe them to be a legitimate basis on which to withhold our refund.
I confirmed in writing on the 30-AUG-2023 we were retaining the whole boat for 10 divers, as per the two payments made to Lying b
d Divers for the weekend. How the group chose to utilise those spaces was entirely up to us and had no impact on your delivery of the booked service nor would have resulted in any loss of revenue to you were we not to utilise them in full. I therefore reiterate our position that it is unreasonable for you to withhold payment for any part of the booking.In addition, you stated on the 02-SEP-2023 that, not knowing the cause of the fault which prevented you from operating the boat on the 02-SEP-2023 and the suspected vandalism, you thought it was unlikely within the limited time available that the boat would be functioning and safe to take to sea on the 03-SEP-2023. On that basis you would refund us both days. A credit was not offered at the time and we accepted the refund.
We do not wish to accept a credit now and simply wish to be refunded our costs for a booking which you were unable to fulfil.
Lying tt said:
t said: Being the skipper on the day, my suggestion was that we did not take the vessel out despite me getting it operation on the first day. I stated that we would take the vessel out and undergo checks to ensure that it was fit for the following day - which is was. I gave you the option to either await for us to confirm this in the evening or cancel - which you chose to cancel.
The cancellation would be for those involved in the booking, who were actually there on site. We will not continue to negotiate the matter, as I have clearly outlined our position.
The amount stated on the remittance will be refunded to you, and cover the spaces refunded for those who were there for both days. You can expect this to be within your account as mentioned by the 29th from our accountants.
Over the course of this month, I have been hearing a few stories about them. I know somebody who berths a small sailing boat in the same marina, and he is also a diving instructor. I rang him and asked if he knew anything about a certain dive outfit operating out of the same marina. He then proceeded to give me a load of horror stories, and told me they were berthed on the same pontoon as him. The week before our booking, the owner's mother was at the helm and hit at least three other boats, putting a big gouge in one of them. He told me they have been given the nickname the 'Pinball Wizards', as they just bounce off everything in the marina. The cancellation would be for those involved in the booking, who were actually there on site. We will not continue to negotiate the matter, as I have clearly outlined our position.
The amount stated on the remittance will be refunded to you, and cover the spaces refunded for those who were there for both days. You can expect this to be within your account as mentioned by the 29th from our accountants.
The owner's mother is shown on the website as a co-director and skipper. The woman she introduced as skipper is also listed as such on the website, as is a youngish lad. The owner says she is a Yachtmaster and Advanced Powerboat Instructor.
I sent a message to a WhatsApp group for dive clubs and was put in contact with somebody who booked with them two months prior to us. They pulled the same stunt as us, but he is a HGV mechanic, and offered his assistance. He told me there was no power at the solenoid on the starter motor, so he hot-wired it and got it going. He said the young lad who was skippering did not have a clue what he was doing. He dropped divers in with the prop spinning, which as well as the obvious danger, means they are separated on the surface if there is a delay between them dropping in. On the way back into the marina, he hit the outboard motor of a boat in a neighbouring berth. He also said the life raft was in the wheelhouse and out of date.
I heard somebody operating a boat in Scotland was booked with them. We know him very well, and he has an excellent operation. He is a member of a club where he is based and they booked with this outfit. I gave him a call to warn him what to expect, and he said he had been having doubts too. They cancelled on them, saying it was too windy, which he says was not the case. I am also aware she married the girl who she said was our skipper the same day as his booking.
I suspect the people they say are skippers do not have commercial endorsements, and/or the boat is not coded as required under the MCA's Small Commercial Vessel scheme. Both the bloke with a boat in the same marina and the guy from the other club commented that there is no way the skippers they saw in action could hold a commercial endorsement.
I am not expecting our refund (or the partial refund they have offered), so it is looking like County Court is likely.
The rest of the group are clearly annoyed, and one person in particular is extremely upset. Some have said they want compensating for their travel and accommodation, and other expenses. The terms and conditions on their website state:
" If Rob-Dog Divers is required to cancel a booking for any reason it will use reasonable endeavours to provide a suitable alternative booking date for the customer. Lying-b
d Divers liability in this instance shall be limited to the cost of the booking and in the event a suitable alternative booking date cannot be agreed it shall refund the cost of the booking to the customer."The bit in bold is fairly standard, and I would have thought perfectly enforceable in most circumstances, however, our argument is that they were fully aware they could not fulfil our booking well in advance, so are liable for our other losses.
It is difficult for me to prove that they do not have the minimum skipper qualifications and commercial coding, as there is no public record.
I am currently pondering our next steps. I was considering a response whereby I put my suspicions to them and ask them to prove they have the requisite skipper qualifications and coding. I am sure they will refuse.
If this went to county court, could we make an application for the court to rule they must provide this information?
If they did, and we could prove they could not have legally put to sea, is it likely we would be awarded damages for our other expenses?
If they are taking money for bookings they know they cannot fulfil, is this not a criminal matter too?
Any other advice would be appreciated.
Edit: Accidently named the lying bds.
ds.Edited by Ganglandboss on Monday 25th September 14:58
Sounds like you’ve unfortunately got a bad set of people and if the £900 is genuinely on offer, take it and think yourself lucky. Isn’t that only £20 loss each?
On the refund for people, I can see it both ways. If you booked 10 aeroplane tickets, 8 turned up to the airport but had to get off the plane. I don’t think I would expect a refund for the 2 who never got on the plane.
If you booked a Xmas lunch and payment was required in advance, 2 didn’t turn up but the oven broke on the day. I wouldn’t expect the 2 who didn’t turn up to get a refund.
Now, I realise you are saying you booked the whole boat so it’s up to you. I do understand that argument too, but as is often the way, what does your actual booking say in terms of no shows?
On the refund for people, I can see it both ways. If you booked 10 aeroplane tickets, 8 turned up to the airport but had to get off the plane. I don’t think I would expect a refund for the 2 who never got on the plane.
If you booked a Xmas lunch and payment was required in advance, 2 didn’t turn up but the oven broke on the day. I wouldn’t expect the 2 who didn’t turn up to get a refund.
Now, I realise you are saying you booked the whole boat so it’s up to you. I do understand that argument too, but as is often the way, what does your actual booking say in terms of no shows?
TLDR in full, but this is one of the reasons why I doubt I’ll bother with many UK sea dives again once my PFO is fixed. Maybe the odd trip on whatever Bob Anderson’s latest boat is called, but other than that I’ll be sticking to caves and warm foreign stuff with decent vis.
Final nail in the coffin for me was that p*nis in Eastbourne, and this episode of yours just brings back less than wonderful memories.
Final nail in the coffin for me was that p*nis in Eastbourne, and this episode of yours just brings back less than wonderful memories.
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned 'contract' yet. In other words, what was promised vs what was delivered.
My thought - but I'm not a lawyer - is that the contract concerns the whole sum and can't be divided up. The contract was breached because the boat wasn't fit for purpose, so all the money is due. I think they're just trying to grab a bit back, and we know they can use false reasoning because of the 'visibility' nonsense. That was when they should have said 'We haven't got a boat, here's your money back'.
If you accept £900 is it on condition you waive any right to the remaining £225?
Their statement 'We will not continue to negotiate the matter' seems defensive. I might respond 'This is not a matter of negotiation, it's a matter of contract law'. You have to be black and white. The risk is that they say 'Well fk you, sue us', you then have to go legal, and there's always a chance you might lose.
Which reminds me, did you pay by credit card? That would give you a useful out-of-court option.
My thought - but I'm not a lawyer - is that the contract concerns the whole sum and can't be divided up. The contract was breached because the boat wasn't fit for purpose, so all the money is due. I think they're just trying to grab a bit back, and we know they can use false reasoning because of the 'visibility' nonsense. That was when they should have said 'We haven't got a boat, here's your money back'.
If you accept £900 is it on condition you waive any right to the remaining £225?
Their statement 'We will not continue to negotiate the matter' seems defensive. I might respond 'This is not a matter of negotiation, it's a matter of contract law'. You have to be black and white. The risk is that they say 'Well f
k you, sue us', you then have to go legal, and there's always a chance you might lose.Which reminds me, did you pay by credit card? That would give you a useful out-of-court option.
Not a lawyer either. I feel the pain.
Definitely get the £900, but do not accept this as full and final settlement I.e. you are accepting the £900 instead of full amount. I would not refer to that in writing or verbally, just wait for the £900 to come in, and if it does, pounce afterwards.
I would then go to small claims court (sorry I dont know where you are located but it may not be England). You have a strong case, and would be doing everyone a favour.
Or....if you can't get your money, get your money's worth. Slate their operation everywhere you can especially social media. It will cost them more than £225..
Good luck with it.
Definitely get the £900, but do not accept this as full and final settlement I.e. you are accepting the £900 instead of full amount. I would not refer to that in writing or verbally, just wait for the £900 to come in, and if it does, pounce afterwards.
I would then go to small claims court (sorry I dont know where you are located but it may not be England). You have a strong case, and would be doing everyone a favour.
Or....if you can't get your money, get your money's worth. Slate their operation everywhere you can especially social media. It will cost them more than £225..
Good luck with it.
(It is difficult for me to prove that they do not have the minimum skipper qualifications and commercial coding, as there is no public record.).
I beg to differ on this, just searching for small boat certification reveals a plethora of references by the UK government for registration of small commercial boats, it must have a valid BSS, and or small commercial vessel certificate,
workboat certificate, pilot boat certificate etc.
Some certificates can be used instead of a boatmasters’ licence, including STCW certificates of competency and certificates awarded by the Royal Yachting Association.
Contacting any of these organisations would elicit information regarding validity of certification.
At the very least the operators should have certification available for review/verification, and insurance for whatever liability is required.
Any organisations that issues a certificate will have a register of the certification issued and to whom it was issued.
All the above should be checked/verified before proceeding with any hiring.
I beg to differ on this, just searching for small boat certification reveals a plethora of references by the UK government for registration of small commercial boats, it must have a valid BSS, and or small commercial vessel certificate,
workboat certificate, pilot boat certificate etc.
Some certificates can be used instead of a boatmasters’ licence, including STCW certificates of competency and certificates awarded by the Royal Yachting Association.
Contacting any of these organisations would elicit information regarding validity of certification.
At the very least the operators should have certification available for review/verification, and insurance for whatever liability is required.
Any organisations that issues a certificate will have a register of the certification issued and to whom it was issued.
All the above should be checked/verified before proceeding with any hiring.
In my non legal opinion
I can't see a magistrate being asked to rule on a contract despite getting bogged down in skipper licences.
It will be irrelevant, and will just cloud the issue imo potentially losing high ground with the judge.
Assuming none of the divers are hard pressed for the immediate cash refund (the only diver I knew had no end of hobbies to separate him from his ample means) I would fight it. After all, the £900 is still very much hypothetical.
The fact this outfit aren't qualified should be pursued through another means I think.
Trying to chip you down on the refund when you clearly rented the whole boat is just ignorant. What have they delivered to enjoy that extra cash?
I can't see a magistrate being asked to rule on a contract despite getting bogged down in skipper licences.
It will be irrelevant, and will just cloud the issue imo potentially losing high ground with the judge.
Assuming none of the divers are hard pressed for the immediate cash refund (the only diver I knew had no end of hobbies to separate him from his ample means) I would fight it. After all, the £900 is still very much hypothetical.
The fact this outfit aren't qualified should be pursued through another means I think.
Trying to chip you down on the refund when you clearly rented the whole boat is just ignorant. What have they delivered to enjoy that extra cash?
Racing Newt said:
Contacting any of these organisations would elicit information regarding validity of certification.
Wouldn't they just say 'because DPA/GDPR' and refuse?My boat has a BSS cert but I can't imagine the EA would tell anyone else that it did or didn't. But it's not relevant to the case; BSS or not the boat wasn't provided and that's what matters.
Ganglandboss said:
My OH and I are members of a diving club, and we arranged a boat charter for a group of ten in Wales. The firm we booked with have been operating for a while, mostly doing training, but they have expanded their operations and now have two boats. They advertise online and you can book individual spaces on the boat. We booked the whole boat for two days.
About three weeks before the booking, they contacted us to suggest we rearrange it for another weekend, as the visibility was going to be bad. I do not know anybody who can predict this three weeks in advance, so there was clearly another reason. We told them we still wanted to keep that date. As we got closer to the date of the booking, the forecast was showing strong winds, so we had to accept their offer to rearrange.
When the date of the rearranged booking was approaching, they contacted us again with the same story about visibility. Again, we said we wanted to go ahead. They then said the wind would be too strong. The forecast this time was showing next to no wind at all, so we insisted on keeping the booking.
The dive operator has a very impressive internet and social media profile, but we have been hearing bad things about them. We had a feeling they might not fulfil our booking, so we met everybody at our club the Thursday before and shared our concerns.
We had been given instruction to arrive at their premises at 8:30 am on Saturday for a 9:30 ropes-off. We were there at 8:20 and there was nobody there. 8:30 came and still nobody. We started trying to call them as we got to 9:00 and got no answer.
At 9:05, a van arrived with two women in it. One was the business owner, and the other she introduced as the skipper. We were told to drive to the marina to unload kit onto trolleys, and bring the cars back to park.
What happened next was nothing short of a pantomime. First of all, they could not find their own boat. She had to make a phone call to find out where it was. We began loading kit onto it and noticed there were no lines to tie stuff to seats, and she did not know where she wanted us to store our second cylinder.
The boat is quite small, and has a tiny wheelhouse. They both got in the wheelhouse and shut the door behind them, which seemed odd. They emerged about 15 minutes later and told us the engine won't start. They demonstrated turning the ignition to the on position, waiting for the buzzer to stop, and pressing the start button. The engine did not crank. They kept doing this repeatedly and did not lift the engine cover once..
We began unloading our kit, and when we came back for the second trolley load, she told us they had found a loose cable under the seat and got the engine running. She told us they did not want to take divers out until it had been tested. Before leaving, she agreed to a refund and asked us to email her with bank details.
On the 6th September, she sent the following email:
"Please find attached for refund of dive spaces 2nd & 3rd September. Please expect this to enter you account within the next 5 working days."
The attached document is a remittance for the refund of 8 spaces over two days. The total amount is £900. We have paid £1,125.
Two people did not come along on the day of the booking as they had colds, so it is clear she has not included them. We disagree with this as we booked the whole boat. How we fill those spaces is irrelevant, and she would not have been able to deliver the service had they been present.
We have emailed her to challenge this and advise her we have still not been paid the amount in the remittance. She now says she has told the accountant to refund us, and we will be paid the amount stated by the 29th September.
We have sent a formal letter before action giving her 14 days to refund us. That deadline is the 2nd October.
The letter was sent by Royal Mail Signed For and as an attachment to an email, in which we have made it clear our preference is to settle the matter amicably. She has responded stating her reasons for only a partial refund:
The owner's mother is shown on the website as a co-director and skipper. The woman she introduced as skipper is also listed as such on the website, as is a youngish lad. The owner says she is a Yachtmaster and Advanced Powerboat Instructor.
I sent a message to a WhatsApp group for dive clubs and was put in contact with somebody who booked with them two months prior to us. They pulled the same stunt as us, but he is a HGV mechanic, and offered his assistance. He told me there was no power at the solenoid on the starter motor, so he hot-wired it and got it going. He said the young lad who was skippering did not have a clue what he was doing. He dropped divers in with the prop spinning, which as well as the obvious danger, means they are separated on the surface if there is a delay between them dropping in. On the way back into the marina, he hit the outboard motor of a boat in a neighbouring berth. He also said the life raft was in the wheelhouse and out of date.
I heard somebody operating a boat in Scotland was booked with them. We know him very well, and he has an excellent operation. He is a member of a club where he is based and they booked with this outfit. I gave him a call to warn him what to expect, and he said he had been having doubts too. They cancelled on them, saying it was too windy, which he says was not the case. I am also aware she married the girl who she said was our skipper the same day as his booking.
I suspect the people they say are skippers do not have commercial endorsements, and/or the boat is not coded as required under the MCA's Small Commercial Vessel scheme. Both the bloke with a boat in the same marina and the guy from the other club commented that there is no way the skippers they saw in action could hold a commercial endorsement.
I am not expecting our refund (or the partial refund they have offered), so it is looking like County Court is likely.
The rest of the group are clearly annoyed, and one person in particular is extremely upset. Some have said they want compensating for their travel and accommodation, and other expenses. The terms and conditions on their website state:
" If Rob-Dog Divers is required to cancel a booking for any reason it will use reasonable endeavours to provide a suitable alternative booking date for the customer. Lying-bd Divers liability in this instance shall be limited to the cost of the booking and in the event a suitable alternative booking date cannot be agreed it shall refund the cost of the booking to the customer."
The bit in bold is fairly standard, and I would have thought perfectly enforceable in most circumstances, however, our argument is that they were fully aware they could not fulfil our booking well in advance, so are liable for our other losses.
It is difficult for me to prove that they do not have the minimum skipper qualifications and commercial coding, as there is no public record.
I am currently pondering our next steps. I was considering a response whereby I put my suspicions to them and ask them to prove they have the requisite skipper qualifications and coding. I am sure they will refuse.
If this went to county court, could we make an application for the court to rule they must provide this information?
If they did, and we could prove they could not have legally put to sea, is it likely we would be awarded damages for our other expenses?
If they are taking money for bookings they know they cannot fulfil, is this not a criminal matter too?
Any other advice would be appreciated.
If you paid by credit card provider, take it up with them.About three weeks before the booking, they contacted us to suggest we rearrange it for another weekend, as the visibility was going to be bad. I do not know anybody who can predict this three weeks in advance, so there was clearly another reason. We told them we still wanted to keep that date. As we got closer to the date of the booking, the forecast was showing strong winds, so we had to accept their offer to rearrange.
When the date of the rearranged booking was approaching, they contacted us again with the same story about visibility. Again, we said we wanted to go ahead. They then said the wind would be too strong. The forecast this time was showing next to no wind at all, so we insisted on keeping the booking.
The dive operator has a very impressive internet and social media profile, but we have been hearing bad things about them. We had a feeling they might not fulfil our booking, so we met everybody at our club the Thursday before and shared our concerns.
We had been given instruction to arrive at their premises at 8:30 am on Saturday for a 9:30 ropes-off. We were there at 8:20 and there was nobody there. 8:30 came and still nobody. We started trying to call them as we got to 9:00 and got no answer.
At 9:05, a van arrived with two women in it. One was the business owner, and the other she introduced as the skipper. We were told to drive to the marina to unload kit onto trolleys, and bring the cars back to park.
What happened next was nothing short of a pantomime. First of all, they could not find their own boat. She had to make a phone call to find out where it was. We began loading kit onto it and noticed there were no lines to tie stuff to seats, and she did not know where she wanted us to store our second cylinder.
The boat is quite small, and has a tiny wheelhouse. They both got in the wheelhouse and shut the door behind them, which seemed odd. They emerged about 15 minutes later and told us the engine won't start. They demonstrated turning the ignition to the on position, waiting for the buzzer to stop, and pressing the start button. The engine did not crank. They kept doing this repeatedly and did not lift the engine cover once..
We began unloading our kit, and when we came back for the second trolley load, she told us they had found a loose cable under the seat and got the engine running. She told us they did not want to take divers out until it had been tested. Before leaving, she agreed to a refund and asked us to email her with bank details.
On the 6th September, she sent the following email:
"Please find attached for refund of dive spaces 2nd & 3rd September. Please expect this to enter you account within the next 5 working days."
The attached document is a remittance for the refund of 8 spaces over two days. The total amount is £900. We have paid £1,125.
Two people did not come along on the day of the booking as they had colds, so it is clear she has not included them. We disagree with this as we booked the whole boat. How we fill those spaces is irrelevant, and she would not have been able to deliver the service had they been present.
We have emailed her to challenge this and advise her we have still not been paid the amount in the remittance. She now says she has told the accountant to refund us, and we will be paid the amount stated by the 29th September.
We have sent a formal letter before action giving her 14 days to refund us. That deadline is the 2nd October.
The letter was sent by Royal Mail Signed For and as an attachment to an email, in which we have made it clear our preference is to settle the matter amicably. She has responded stating her reasons for only a partial refund:
Lying tt said:
t said: Having looked at what was sent - the amount would have been calculated on the number that was logged going out on the boat for the dive plan on that day. This was listed as 7 and therefore was the reason why 7 spaces had been refunded for both days.
The option was given for the second day to be refunded to you as a good will gesture for the inconvenience of the first day, despite the vessel being fully operational having undergone checks throughout the cancelled day. In general this would usually have been given as credit.
We can either refund you as per the notice for the 7 spaces on each day, or we can refund the 7 spaces for the first day and credit the group for the 2nd day in full to rebook. The option is your choice, please let me know so I can amend this and amend the refund from being sent to you.
I'm not sure why it is now seven; there were eight present. The option was given for the second day to be refunded to you as a good will gesture for the inconvenience of the first day, despite the vessel being fully operational having undergone checks throughout the cancelled day. In general this would usually have been given as credit.
We can either refund you as per the notice for the 7 spaces on each day, or we can refund the 7 spaces for the first day and credit the group for the 2nd day in full to rebook. The option is your choice, please let me know so I can amend this and amend the refund from being sent to you.
Our Response said:
Thank you for your response.
I do not agree with your statements nor believe them to be a legitimate basis on which to withhold our refund.
I confirmed in writing on the 30-AUG-2023 we were retaining the whole boat for 10 divers, as per the two payments made to Lying bd Divers for the weekend. How the group chose to utilise those spaces was entirely up to us and had no impact on your delivery of the booked service nor would have resulted in any loss of revenue to you were we not to utilise them in full. I therefore reiterate our position that it is unreasonable for you to withhold payment for any part of the booking.
In addition, you stated on the 02-SEP-2023 that, not knowing the cause of the fault which prevented you from operating the boat on the 02-SEP-2023 and the suspected vandalism, you thought it was unlikely within the limited time available that the boat would be functioning and safe to take to sea on the 03-SEP-2023. On that basis you would refund us both days. A credit was not offered at the time and we accepted the refund.
We do not wish to accept a credit now and simply wish to be refunded our costs for a booking which you were unable to fulfil.
I do not agree with your statements nor believe them to be a legitimate basis on which to withhold our refund.
I confirmed in writing on the 30-AUG-2023 we were retaining the whole boat for 10 divers, as per the two payments made to Lying b
d Divers for the weekend. How the group chose to utilise those spaces was entirely up to us and had no impact on your delivery of the booked service nor would have resulted in any loss of revenue to you were we not to utilise them in full. I therefore reiterate our position that it is unreasonable for you to withhold payment for any part of the booking.In addition, you stated on the 02-SEP-2023 that, not knowing the cause of the fault which prevented you from operating the boat on the 02-SEP-2023 and the suspected vandalism, you thought it was unlikely within the limited time available that the boat would be functioning and safe to take to sea on the 03-SEP-2023. On that basis you would refund us both days. A credit was not offered at the time and we accepted the refund.
We do not wish to accept a credit now and simply wish to be refunded our costs for a booking which you were unable to fulfil.
Lying tt said:
t said: Being the skipper on the day, my suggestion was that we did not take the vessel out despite me getting it operation on the first day. I stated that we would take the vessel out and undergo checks to ensure that it was fit for the following day - which is was. I gave you the option to either await for us to confirm this in the evening or cancel - which you chose to cancel.
The cancellation would be for those involved in the booking, who were actually there on site. We will not continue to negotiate the matter, as I have clearly outlined our position.
The amount stated on the remittance will be refunded to you, and cover the spaces refunded for those who were there for both days. You can expect this to be within your account as mentioned by the 29th from our accountants.
Over the course of this month, I have been hearing a few stories about them. I know somebody who berths a small sailing boat in the same marina, and he is also a diving instructor. I rang him and asked if he knew anything about a certain dive outfit operating out of the same marina. He then proceeded to give me a load of horror stories, and told me they were berthed on the same pontoon as him. The week before our booking, the owner's mother was at the helm and hit at least three other boats, putting a big gouge in one of them. He told me they have been given the nickname the 'Pinball Wizards', as they just bounce off everything in the marina. The cancellation would be for those involved in the booking, who were actually there on site. We will not continue to negotiate the matter, as I have clearly outlined our position.
The amount stated on the remittance will be refunded to you, and cover the spaces refunded for those who were there for both days. You can expect this to be within your account as mentioned by the 29th from our accountants.
The owner's mother is shown on the website as a co-director and skipper. The woman she introduced as skipper is also listed as such on the website, as is a youngish lad. The owner says she is a Yachtmaster and Advanced Powerboat Instructor.
I sent a message to a WhatsApp group for dive clubs and was put in contact with somebody who booked with them two months prior to us. They pulled the same stunt as us, but he is a HGV mechanic, and offered his assistance. He told me there was no power at the solenoid on the starter motor, so he hot-wired it and got it going. He said the young lad who was skippering did not have a clue what he was doing. He dropped divers in with the prop spinning, which as well as the obvious danger, means they are separated on the surface if there is a delay between them dropping in. On the way back into the marina, he hit the outboard motor of a boat in a neighbouring berth. He also said the life raft was in the wheelhouse and out of date.
I heard somebody operating a boat in Scotland was booked with them. We know him very well, and he has an excellent operation. He is a member of a club where he is based and they booked with this outfit. I gave him a call to warn him what to expect, and he said he had been having doubts too. They cancelled on them, saying it was too windy, which he says was not the case. I am also aware she married the girl who she said was our skipper the same day as his booking.
I suspect the people they say are skippers do not have commercial endorsements, and/or the boat is not coded as required under the MCA's Small Commercial Vessel scheme. Both the bloke with a boat in the same marina and the guy from the other club commented that there is no way the skippers they saw in action could hold a commercial endorsement.
I am not expecting our refund (or the partial refund they have offered), so it is looking like County Court is likely.
The rest of the group are clearly annoyed, and one person in particular is extremely upset. Some have said they want compensating for their travel and accommodation, and other expenses. The terms and conditions on their website state:
" If Rob-Dog Divers is required to cancel a booking for any reason it will use reasonable endeavours to provide a suitable alternative booking date for the customer. Lying-b
d Divers liability in this instance shall be limited to the cost of the booking and in the event a suitable alternative booking date cannot be agreed it shall refund the cost of the booking to the customer."The bit in bold is fairly standard, and I would have thought perfectly enforceable in most circumstances, however, our argument is that they were fully aware they could not fulfil our booking well in advance, so are liable for our other losses.
It is difficult for me to prove that they do not have the minimum skipper qualifications and commercial coding, as there is no public record.
I am currently pondering our next steps. I was considering a response whereby I put my suspicions to them and ask them to prove they have the requisite skipper qualifications and coding. I am sure they will refuse.
If this went to county court, could we make an application for the court to rule they must provide this information?
If they did, and we could prove they could not have legally put to sea, is it likely we would be awarded damages for our other expenses?
If they are taking money for bookings they know they cannot fulfil, is this not a criminal matter too?
Any other advice would be appreciated.
Edit: Accidently named the lying bds.
ds.Edited by Ganglandboss on Monday 25th September 14:58
If you didn't, do so in future.
Thanks for the replies.
A few have advised cutting our losses at £900, and that is what I would probably do. My difficulty is it is not just our money, but eight other people. We collected their money and handed it over to these crooks, so we need to show we are fighting to get it returned.
Most have accepted it, but one of the newer club members seems to be avoiding us.
We sent them a letter before action and she responded, saying she has told her accountant to issue a refund. We have challenged the amount, but has told us she will not negotiate, and the money would be paid by the 29th September. This has not happened. The deadline date on our letter before action is this coming Tuesday, so it is looking like we will be taking her to court.
I have emailed my concerns about their qualifications and SCV coding to the MCA.
I have also reported her to Gwynedd Trading Standards. To do this, you have to go through Citizens Advice; they were pretty helpful.
I have also got some insider information from PADI. There is a lot of positive media about how she was the youngest person to become a PADI Course Director (this is their most senior instructor rating). It seems she has had a big falling out with them over service delivery, and I note all their branding has been removed from her website, premises and van. She is showing as a PADI dive centre on the PADI website, and I notice she is still offering PADI instructor training. I emailed PADI about this and they have confirmed there is an ongoing investigation into quality management at both her business and her wife's business.
I have also spoken to one of the group I said had booked with them on her wedding day. She is refusing to refund them and instead offering credit against another booking. It seems that amongst that group was the chairman of BSAC, so I am hoping he might be able to provide some support.
I had a look at the information from Companies House a while back. They do not have much in the way of tangible assets, or cash in hand or at bank.
I have just checked again, and it seems she has a second directorship. The one we are dealing with has her and her mother as the only directors. The second is with her wife, and was only incorporated two days ago. I am wondering if she is gearing up to transfer the assets to this new firm and wind the other one up.
A few have advised cutting our losses at £900, and that is what I would probably do. My difficulty is it is not just our money, but eight other people. We collected their money and handed it over to these crooks, so we need to show we are fighting to get it returned.
Most have accepted it, but one of the newer club members seems to be avoiding us.
We sent them a letter before action and she responded, saying she has told her accountant to issue a refund. We have challenged the amount, but has told us she will not negotiate, and the money would be paid by the 29th September. This has not happened. The deadline date on our letter before action is this coming Tuesday, so it is looking like we will be taking her to court.
I have emailed my concerns about their qualifications and SCV coding to the MCA.
I have also reported her to Gwynedd Trading Standards. To do this, you have to go through Citizens Advice; they were pretty helpful.
I have also got some insider information from PADI. There is a lot of positive media about how she was the youngest person to become a PADI Course Director (this is their most senior instructor rating). It seems she has had a big falling out with them over service delivery, and I note all their branding has been removed from her website, premises and van. She is showing as a PADI dive centre on the PADI website, and I notice she is still offering PADI instructor training. I emailed PADI about this and they have confirmed there is an ongoing investigation into quality management at both her business and her wife's business.
I have also spoken to one of the group I said had booked with them on her wedding day. She is refusing to refund them and instead offering credit against another booking. It seems that amongst that group was the chairman of BSAC, so I am hoping he might be able to provide some support.
I had a look at the information from Companies House a while back. They do not have much in the way of tangible assets, or cash in hand or at bank.
I have just checked again, and it seems she has a second directorship. The one we are dealing with has her and her mother as the only directors. The second is with her wife, and was only incorporated two days ago. I am wondering if she is gearing up to transfer the assets to this new firm and wind the other one up.
I think you are need to look at the whole picture,the other party saying her accountant will sort the refund out is a big red flag but who knows.
The important thing is to focus getting the £900 and whoever moans can take it up with the boat company, I’m sure someone will raise some point about agency and liability and you acted and are liable but who’s going to pursue you for 1/8th of £225.
It’s too late but I’d have got my money before going near trading standards, also this could just be a straight bad customer service matter as opposed to something else.
Make getting that £900 priority one
The important thing is to focus getting the £900 and whoever moans can take it up with the boat company, I’m sure someone will raise some point about agency and liability and you acted and are liable but who’s going to pursue you for 1/8th of £225.
It’s too late but I’d have got my money before going near trading standards, also this could just be a straight bad customer service matter as opposed to something else.
Make getting that £900 priority one
CraigyMc said:
If you paid by credit card provider, take it up with them.
I think we can assume not, because he's been asked that three times to no avail.OP is entirely at the mercy of the company and beating around in irrelevant bushes. Trading Standards won't get him his money back so it's court and then - if they owe over £1K (I think that's the minimum amount) - escalate to High Court to get paid.
Edited by Simpo Two on Sunday 1st October 21:01
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