Fatal Accident: How long should road remain closed?
Discussion
This: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-674775... happened near me.
Accident happened at 1515. Road still closed 6 hours later. What are they doing that takes so long? I get that they want enough evidence to ensure the driver goes down for a long time, but what are they actually likely to be doing?
Accident happened at 1515. Road still closed 6 hours later. What are they doing that takes so long? I get that they want enough evidence to ensure the driver goes down for a long time, but what are they actually likely to be doing?
After all the Police investigation I suspect they often need an engineer to assess damage to the road, certify as safe or repair things and then sign off. It could take a few hours to extract someone from a car…especially if other people involved.
Someone dies….i don’t think hassle for us being late or having a detour compares.
Someone dies….i don’t think hassle for us being late or having a detour compares.
Voldemort said:
This: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-674775... happened near me.
Accident happened at 1515. Road still closed 6 hours later. What are they doing that takes so long? I get that they want enough evidence to ensure the driver goes down for a long time, but what are they actually likely to be doing?
Can be all kinds of things.Accident happened at 1515. Road still closed 6 hours later. What are they doing that takes so long? I get that they want enough evidence to ensure the driver goes down for a long time, but what are they actually likely to be doing?
The full investigation will take a great deal of time, it'll take time for the investigation strands to get called out & attend.
The initial response is about preserving life & the scene, the majority of (forensic) evidence gathering is done after that. Then when that's finished you might have to have repairs before it can be re-opened.
DirktheDaring said:
As long as it takes to do whatever is needed, being made late for a meeting or getting home in time for tea is insignificant and insensitive.
I was very careful not to say that I'm at all concerned by the inconvenience. I didn't want to raise that kettle of fish at all. I want to know why they need 6 hours - and counting - to do what they have to do?
Voldemort said:
but what are they actually likely to be doing?
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Voldemort said:
This: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-674775... happened near me.
Accident happened at 1515. Road still closed 6 hours later. What are they doing that takes so long? I get that they want enough evidence to ensure the driver goes down for a long time, but what are they actually likely to be doing?
Police accident investigators, like other parts of the police are rather thin on the ground. So it could be there was/is nobody available to start the investigation. Accident happened at 1515. Road still closed 6 hours later. What are they doing that takes so long? I get that they want enough evidence to ensure the driver goes down for a long time, but what are they actually likely to be doing?
t again' but someone has beaten me to it.x type said:
I was going to link the programme too. Very interesting, but often sad and sometimes infuriating show that will give some insight into what goes on after a fatal accident. Turkish91 said:
By the state of that Shogun in the picture on BBC news, one would assume the fatality is the passenger. Surprised they’ve posted that up on there to be honest!
Driver arrested for being unfit due to drugs, unlikely he had a passenger. I have a horrible feeling it'll be somebody waiting for a bus. 
I stopped doing AI 20+ years ago, but looking at that scene, I can understand why it's still shut 6 hours later. Just a few factors:
1. Dual carriageway with a grass central reservation. Lots to survey - I doubt the Police are using point cloud surveys so it's total station and bloke with a prism. You'd be surprised how inaccurate the OS Mastermap can be so sometimes you can't just drop your scene plan on it.
2. Someone has to do a fingertip search of that central reservation for trace evidence.
3. Entrapments or victim underneath vehicle but certified dead.
4. Waiting for hook - they've got to fight their way through the traffic to get there to recover the vehicles
5. Waiting for AI and vehicle examiner. You might want to interrogate the ECUs at the scene rather than worry about them losing their volatile memory after a day or so with the battery disconnected.
6. Waiting for photographer
7. Possibly waiting for CSE - if the AI isn't trusted to recover his own samples.
8. Waiting for SIO (Came after my time, but they're bound to be stuck in a meeting somewhere) and gathering the rest of the troops.
9. Waiting for everything to be out of the way so you can have a final mooch about and make sure you've not missed anything because after a few thousand disgruntled drivers pass through, you're not going to find something you need
It was so much harder in my day. Total stations had just come in but the idea of ECUs with useful data wasn't, so you were limited to damage assessments, playing golf with pedestrians and any marks that the driver had kindly left for you to work from.
I once closed off 2 lanes (and three on occasion) out of 3 on the M25 on a Bank Holiday weekend (sorry everyone) for 16 hours, so 6 is nothing.
1. Dual carriageway with a grass central reservation. Lots to survey - I doubt the Police are using point cloud surveys so it's total station and bloke with a prism. You'd be surprised how inaccurate the OS Mastermap can be so sometimes you can't just drop your scene plan on it.
2. Someone has to do a fingertip search of that central reservation for trace evidence.
3. Entrapments or victim underneath vehicle but certified dead.
4. Waiting for hook - they've got to fight their way through the traffic to get there to recover the vehicles
5. Waiting for AI and vehicle examiner. You might want to interrogate the ECUs at the scene rather than worry about them losing their volatile memory after a day or so with the battery disconnected.
6. Waiting for photographer
7. Possibly waiting for CSE - if the AI isn't trusted to recover his own samples.
8. Waiting for SIO (Came after my time, but they're bound to be stuck in a meeting somewhere) and gathering the rest of the troops.
9. Waiting for everything to be out of the way so you can have a final mooch about and make sure you've not missed anything because after a few thousand disgruntled drivers pass through, you're not going to find something you need
It was so much harder in my day. Total stations had just come in but the idea of ECUs with useful data wasn't, so you were limited to damage assessments, playing golf with pedestrians and any marks that the driver had kindly left for you to work from.
I once closed off 2 lanes (and three on occasion) out of 3 on the M25 on a Bank Holiday weekend (sorry everyone) for 16 hours, so 6 is nothing.
carlove said:
x type said:
I was going to link the programme too. Very interesting, but often sad and sometimes infuriating show that will give some insight into what goes on after a fatal accident. The one on the M4 with the family in the red car (Fiesta?) demonstrates it best. They needed to capture all of the marks on the road - which needs really close and finely detailed examination. Yes, they then used technology to capture a 3D digital scan, but by itself that wouldn't have picked out the marks on the road. The net result of this investigation was that they were able to prove that the van driver had been on the hard shoulder for a fair distance and that it wasn't some kind of last minute swerve, so he wouldn't have been able to claim that he swerved to avoid another car or anything like that.
The time spent is totally justified in my opinion.
DirktheDaring said:
As long as it takes to do whatever is needed, being made late for a meeting or getting home in time for tea is insignificant and insensitive.
Sorry to pick on you, other people made the same point, but you must have a limit? Road shut for 12 hours, 24? how about shut for a week, maybe a month? At what point does it stop being insignificant and insensitive?Voldemort said:
I was very careful not to say that I'm at all concerned by the inconvenience.
Yes you were. I'm not sure whether people have literacy issues or just deliberately misinterpret things so that they can enjoy putting the boot in, but I do know that the only way you could have avoided that sort of response is to write I understand their work is more important than my convenience in bold text both above and below your post.sixor8 said:
Driver arrested for being unfit due to drugs, unlikely he had a passenger. I have a horrible feeling it'll be somebody waiting for a bus.
The victim, was indeed a pedestrianhttps://westleedsdispatch.com/stanningley-road-ped...
Voldemort said:
This: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-674775... happened near me.
Accident happened at 1515. Road still closed 6 hours later. What are they doing that takes so long? I get that they want enough evidence to ensure the driver goes down for a long time, but what are they actually likely to be doing?
Traffic cop so some idea of what I'm talking about...Accident happened at 1515. Road still closed 6 hours later. What are they doing that takes so long? I get that they want enough evidence to ensure the driver goes down for a long time, but what are they actually likely to be doing?
As soon as the road is opened you lose the chance go and find that missing bit of evidence.
First few hours will be dealing with injuried parties. This takes time.
If people are arrested at the scene you'll need to arrange transport. That's two officers per prisoner. I recently nicked three for death by dangerous as we couldn't prove there and then who the driver was. Officers had to come from 40 miles away.
Accident investigation teams are called out straight away. This will take hours for them to do what they do. I don't understand what they do (as much as they explain it to me).
Lighting can be an issue. It's dark from 5pm now. They wouldn't have started until its dark.
Search for personal items.
Search for medical kit left at the scene.
Search for body parts/tissue/blood. Family members will attend as soon as they can and you do not want evidence of blood left at the scene. This can take hours.
Get permission from the coroner to move the body. Wait for undertakers.
Vehicle recovery.
That would be for a fairly simple fatal. Six hours is fairly quick I'd say.
Add in multiple fatalities, a fail to stop element and its even longer.
I've probably missed some bits but they are the main reasons. It isn't just because we can. We get hassle from above to get it opened ASAP. They are politely told no.
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