Making brake lines - how to stop this
Discussion
Hi,
I'm making some new brake lines which is going pretty well except for the damage the flaring tool does to the pipe to grip it for flaring. Just wondering if anyone had any genius ideas on how to stop it?
I've use a few tools from a cheap ebay kit (rubbish), a more expensive draper hand flaring (only any good for copper lines) to my current sealey vice mounted pipe flarer (great and will do the Kunifer lines). All tools damage the lines in the same way which I presume will lead to corrosion or a fixing that gets stuck and twists the line if I ever want to remove it in the future.
I'm making some new brake lines which is going pretty well except for the damage the flaring tool does to the pipe to grip it for flaring. Just wondering if anyone had any genius ideas on how to stop it?
I've use a few tools from a cheap ebay kit (rubbish), a more expensive draper hand flaring (only any good for copper lines) to my current sealey vice mounted pipe flarer (great and will do the Kunifer lines). All tools damage the lines in the same way which I presume will lead to corrosion or a fixing that gets stuck and twists the line if I ever want to remove it in the future.
AlexGSi2000 said:
I don't think the damage if you call it that is enough to warrant worrying about.
It wont induce any corrosion as there is no surface coating on the line, it is made of the copper aluminum mix.
So any corrosion would take place at the same rate as the rest of the line.
'Kunifer' is a solid copper nickel alloy, not coated or plated, it doesn't corrode as such, although the surface does darken through oxidisation and even develops verdigris over time.It wont induce any corrosion as there is no surface coating on the line, it is made of the copper aluminum mix.
So any corrosion would take place at the same rate as the rest of the line.
But the only way to avoid that clamping damage is to buy a better quality flaring tool; I use a 'Sykes Pickavant 270 Series' (capstan) on the bench, and a hand-held 'Sykes Pickavant Flaremaster2' for on-the-car flaring. Both leave clamping witness marks, but nothing like as brutal as the OP's.
This is flaring tool i am using:
https://www.sealey.co.uk/product/5637193396/brake-...
it isn't so bad on copper but worse on Kunifer stuff.
Copper is much easier to work with, is it much worse than Kunifer?
https://www.sealey.co.uk/product/5637193396/brake-...
it isn't so bad on copper but worse on Kunifer stuff.
Copper is much easier to work with, is it much worse than Kunifer?
Personally, I would never use pure copper, IMHO it is far too soft.
That Sealey looks like a rip-off of the Sykes Pickavant capstan but without the capstan!
From the image of your pipe, it seems to have 'teeth' in the clamping area whereas the Sykes ones are smooth, they clamp simply by being of slightly smaller diameter.
Please post an image of the insides of the two clamp pieces.
That Sealey looks like a rip-off of the Sykes Pickavant capstan but without the capstan!
From the image of your pipe, it seems to have 'teeth' in the clamping area whereas the Sykes ones are smooth, they clamp simply by being of slightly smaller diameter.
Please post an image of the insides of the two clamp pieces.
I think it is the tool you are using, I have used an SP hand flarer for 15+ years & never seen this.
For those that decry copper I will say that it has been on sale for many, many years & in use for those years by many many garages & home users, so if it were sub-standard in ANY way it would not be so widely used today.
For those that decry copper I will say that it has been on sale for many, many years & in use for those years by many many garages & home users, so if it were sub-standard in ANY way it would not be so widely used today.
E-bmw said:
I think it is the tool you are using, I have used an SP hand flarer for 15+ years & never seen this.
For those that decry copper I will say that it has been on sale for many, many years & in use for those years by many many garages & home users, so if it were sub-standard in ANY way it would not be so widely used today.
I didn't say that it was sub-standard or unsafe, just that I don't like it and won't use it. My opinion, my choice. Furthermore, I believe it to be the choice of amateurs as, on the face of it, it appears easier to work with. For those that decry copper I will say that it has been on sale for many, many years & in use for those years by many many garages & home users, so if it were sub-standard in ANY way it would not be so widely used today.
As a professional working on customers' cars, I like all my repairs to look neat and 'factory', and that copper stuff is so soft that it is actually more difficult to get smooth curves and perfectly straight sections with it.
E-bmw said:
For those that decry copper I will say that it has been on sale for many, many years & in use for those years by many many garages & home users, so if it were sub-standard in ANY way it would not be so widely used today.
I'm not saying it has never happened, but it's extremely rare in my experience to see pure copper brake lines in production because they are so expensive, weak and prone to work hardening. Lines in production will usually be cunifer, steel, aluminium. Even replacement lines described as copper will usually be cunifer or sometimes even copper coated steel. No doubt there are armies of DIYers and small shops using pure copper pipe to make up their own lines because it's so much easier to work with than the other options, but it still isn't a great choice IMO.GreenV8S said:
E-bmw said:
For those that decry copper I will say that it has been on sale for many, many years & in use for those years by many many garages & home users, so if it were sub-standard in ANY way it would not be so widely used today.
I'm not saying it has never happened, but it's extremely rare in my experience to see pure copper brake lines in production because they are so expensive, weak and prone to work hardening. Lines in production will usually be cunifer, steel, aluminium. Even replacement lines described as copper will usually be cunifer or sometimes even copper coated steel. No doubt there are armies of DIYers and small shops using pure copper pipe to make up their own lines because it's so much easier to work with than the other options, but it still isn't a great choice IMO.steveo3002 said:
GreenV8S said:
E-bmw said:
For those that decry copper I will say that it has been on sale for many, many years & in use for those years by many many garages & home users, so if it were sub-standard in ANY way it would not be so widely used today.
I'm not saying it has never happened, but it's extremely rare in my experience to see pure copper brake lines in production because they are so expensive, weak and prone to work hardening. Lines in production will usually be cunifer, steel, aluminium. Even replacement lines described as copper will usually be cunifer or sometimes even copper coated steel. No doubt there are armies of DIYers and small shops using pure copper pipe to make up their own lines because it's so much easier to work with than the other options, but it still isn't a great choice IMO.Just because other countries ban it doesn't make it in any way not up to the task. It has a BS for it and is tested to the extremes of any requirements for the task it is designed to do.
Lots of things are banned in certain countries, but used legally in others, so I personally have no issue to using it as have many others for a very long time.
steveo3002 said:
so why not get kunifer ? cant afford the extra £2 a roll?
given the option a - copper its okay and cheap , or b - kunifer thats a better , no downsides , minimal cost difference ?
If it isn't broken don't change it.given the option a - copper its okay and cheap , or b - kunifer thats a better , no downsides , minimal cost difference ?
Edited by steveo3002 on Friday 15th March 09:02
I have plenty of copper in stock so I use copper.
ETA.
In actual fact this is the standard that Cunifer conforms to:
90/10 Copper Nickel, which conforms to BS 2871 part 3, CN102 as well as BS EN 12451.1999 (source Automec)
I'll bet you can't guess what standard copper pipe conforms to?
Thick-walled copper 20swg which conforms to BS 2871 part 3, CN102 as well as BS EN 12451.1999. (source Automec)
Edited by E-bmw on Friday 15th March 09:43
E-bmw said:
if it is properly formed & adequately supported in service it can't bend
Pipes always flex between mounting points due to vibration and shock loads - it's unavoidable. The mounting points and shape need to give a long enough fatigue life for the vehicle. Mounting points that were designed for steel/cunifer might be sufficient for pure copper, but they might not be.GreenV8S said:
E-bmw said:
if it is properly formed & adequately supported in service it can't bend
Pipes always flex between mounting points due to vibration and shock loads - it's unavoidable. The mounting points and shape need to give a long enough fatigue life for the vehicle. Mounting points that were designed for steel/cunifer might be sufficient for pure copper, but they might not be.Personally, I always ensure all supports are fitted correctly so as to minimise any issues & have never had any.
Supports are generally barely more than 6" apart so I don't think there is any real danger of the pipe being able to work harden in service significantly & as the standards applied to copper seem to be the same as cunifer, I rest assured that I am not storing up any issues for the future.
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