Loan car - insurance query

[NSS89]

The initial message was deleted from this topic on 22 March 2024 at 18:23

[sticks090460]

Legally you’ve been driving a car without insurance, for which you could be fined up to £1,000, get points on your licence or a ban, and have your future insurance premiums increase as a result.

[rs4andrew]

I think you were covered by their insurance, and due to the circumstances around the car rejection they have decided to try pass on the accident to your insurance. As if they claim on their fleet/trader/courtesy car policy it could massively hike up their renewals.

[vikingaero]

Some traders policies have high excesses because they can either repair cheaply in-house of have access to preferential repair rates. Seems like the dealer is trying to reclaim costs.

Although your policy may not have had a Driving Other Cars extension, check the wording/policy documents to see if the Insured Vehicle is your vehicle AND any vehicle loaned to you whilst your vehicle is in for repair.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

NSS89 said:

Naively I didn’t query if the loan car needed to be insured by me and I just assumed it was insured under their traders policy. At no point did they tell me I needed to insure it or ask me if my own insurance covers me hence my assumption.

Yup, very naive. You're the driver; it's not their job to tell you you need to insure it (although decent customer service would dictate they should have done), it's 100% your job to ask.

I'm afraid legally, you haven't got a leg to stand on.

[NSS89]

rs4andrew said:

I think you were covered by their insurance, and due to the circumstances around the car rejection they have decided to try pass on the accident to your insurance. As if they claim on their fleet/trader/courtesy car policy it could massively hike up their renewals.

These are exactly my thoughts. They’ve been very dishonest and disingenuous throughout so don’t expect any less from them to be honest.

[NSS89]

vikingaero said:

Some traders policies have high excesses because they can either repair cheaply in-house of have access to preferential repair rates. Seems like the dealer is trying to reclaim costs.

Although your policy may not have had a Driving Other Cars extension, check the wording/policy documents to see if the Insured Vehicle is your vehicle AND any vehicle loaned to you whilst your vehicle is in for repair.

I bought the car for my partner so was only a named driver on the insurance policy hence not having cover on any loaned/hire vehicle.

[NSS89]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Yup, very naive. You're the driver; it's not their job to tell you you need to insure it (although decent customer service would dictate they should have done), it's 100% your job to ask.

I'm afraid legally, you haven't got a leg to stand on.

So there is no responsibility on the dealer to check or make it clear? Sign a document of some sort as you would when loaning a car from a franchised dealer for example? I just find it hard to believe they can loan someone a 30k car and not worry about it being insured or not.

I did ask the delivery driver (one of their workers) when he dropped the car off and he just said “yeah it’s already insured” but I can’t prove that conversation ever happened.

[SkodaIan]

Have you checked whether the loan vehicle shows up as taxed on the Gov website? You could also check for insurance on AskMID.

AskMID isn't 100% reliable on group policies, but if the car isn't taxed it means they've lent you a car from stock which shouldn't have been on the road without trade plates (and most likely won't have been insured without them either).

[J4CKO]

Thats pretty dodgy of them to go loaning cars to customers without mentioning insurances if it is not included, as that car could be loaned out a couple of hours at a time and who is going to piss about getting it insured, its a courtesy car so the implication is its ready to drive, as a courtesy to the customer.

But, it is up to us all to not assume and check, get it in writing as its our license that will get six points, same as if its got bald tyres then its three points per tyre. If you are driving it on the road, then its your responsibility to ensure its all legal.

[NSS89]

SkodaIan said:

Have you checked whether the loan vehicle shows up as taxed on the Gov website? You could also check for insurance on AskMID.

AskMID isn't 100% reliable on group policies, but if the car isn't taxed it means they've lent you a car from stock which shouldn't have been on the road without trade plates (and most likely won't have been insured without them either).

Yeah this is going back a few months but I did check on the day they handed it over to me and it was showing as insured on AskMID which made me think no problems.

As mentioned above it’s only becoming an issue now because I’m rejecting their car so they’re trying to recover their costs.

I don’t understand why they want my insurance docs though, unless they think I’m lying about it not covering me?

[TREMAiNE]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

NSS89 said:

Naively I didn’t query if the loan car needed to be insured by me and I just assumed it was insured under their traders policy. At no point did they tell me I needed to insure it or ask me if my own insurance covers me hence my assumption.

Yup, very naive. You're the driver; it's not their job to tell you you need to insure it (although decent customer service would dictate they should have done), it's 100% your job to ask.

I'm afraid legally, you haven't got a leg to stand on.

I'd disagree completely.
You would 100% expect what is effectively a courtesy car to be insured by the providing dealership. I can't say I have ever had to insure one separately.

At the very least, the dealer should have told the OP that in this instance it was his responsibility to insure the car.

[MrBen.911]

NSS89 said:

I did ask the delivery driver (one of their workers) when he dropped the car off and he just said “yeah it’s already insured” but I can’t prove that conversation ever happened.

This is the important point, that you hadn't mentioned before.

I would suggest you respond to them telling them that you didn't have any insurance in place on their loan car as their employee had told you it was insured when they dropped it off. As such, you expect them to deal with the claim under their insurance.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

TREMAiNE said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

NSS89 said:

Naively I didn’t query if the loan car needed to be insured by me and I just assumed it was insured under their traders policy. At no point did they tell me I needed to insure it or ask me if my own insurance covers me hence my assumption.

Yup, very naive. You're the driver; it's not their job to tell you you need to insure it (although decent customer service would dictate they should have done), it's 100% your job to ask.

I'm afraid legally, you haven't got a leg to stand on.

I'd disagree completely.
You would 100% expect what is effectively a courtesy car to be insured by the providing dealership. I can't say I have ever had to insure one separately.

At the very least, the dealer should have told the OP that in this instance it was his responsibility to insure the car.

Find me the law or legislation that says that. Look up the offence of driving with no insurance and tell me where the exception is for driving a garage courtesy car. There is one get out for driving without insurance where you are entitled to assume it's insured, and that's driving a company vehicle provided by your full time employer on an ongoing basis. That's it.

We can all expect better customer service than the OP received, and think we should be told, or asked to cover the car, but it ain't gonna get you off a no insurance charge or out of a civil claim for damages on a car you were driving without insurance.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

NSS89 said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Yup, very naive. You're the driver; it's not their job to tell you you need to insure it (although decent customer service would dictate they should have done), it's 100% your job to ask.

I'm afraid legally, you haven't got a leg to stand on.

So there is no responsibility on the dealer to check or make it clear? Sign a document of some sort as you would when loaning a car from a franchised dealer for example? I just find it hard to believe they can loan someone a 30k car and not worry about it being insured or not.

I did ask the delivery driver (one of their workers) when he dropped the car off and he just said “yeah it’s already insured” but I can’t prove that conversation ever happened.

I don't believe there's a legal requirement. The garage could argue "everyone should know it's their responsibility as the driver to ensure the car they are driving is insured". And it is.

The bit about the delivery driver is new info you're drip feeding in.

[NSS89]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

I don't believe there's a legal requirement. The garage could argue "everyone should know it's their responsibility as the driver to ensure the car they are driving is insured". And it is.

The bit about the delivery driver is new info you're drip feeding in.

The only reason I didn’t mention it in the first place is I have no proof of that conversation ever taking place and the dishonesty the dealer has already displayed in my dealings with them makes me believe they will flat out deny that was ever said.

[TREMAiNE]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

TREMAiNE said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

NSS89 said:

Naively I didn’t query if the loan car needed to be insured by me and I just assumed it was insured under their traders policy. At no point did they tell me I needed to insure it or ask me if my own insurance covers me hence my assumption.

Yup, very naive. You're the driver; it's not their job to tell you you need to insure it (although decent customer service would dictate they should have done), it's 100% your job to ask.

I'm afraid legally, you haven't got a leg to stand on.

I'd disagree completely.
You would 100% expect what is effectively a courtesy car to be insured by the providing dealership. I can't say I have ever had to insure one separately.

At the very least, the dealer should have told the OP that in this instance it was his responsibility to insure the car.

Find me the law or legislation that says that. Look up the offence of driving with no insurance and tell me where the exception is for driving a garage courtesy car. There is one get out for driving without insurance where you are entitled to assume it's insured, and that's driving a company vehicle provided by your full time employer on an ongoing basis. That's it.

We can all expect better customer service than the OP received, and think we should be told, or asked to cover the car, but it ain't gonna get you off a no insurance charge or out of a civil claim for damages on a car you were driving without insurance.

I am not debating what the law is, that's black and white.
But what I am saying, is that in every instance I've ever known, the courtesy car provider has insured the vehicle.
Whilst I am sure not written in stone, I imagine that is industry standard.

Whilst there is definitely a case that OP should be responsible for at least asking the question (which, it turns out, he did), I'd also argue that the dealer should have also made it clear that their car was not covered by their insurance.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

TREMAiNE said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

TREMAiNE said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

NSS89 said:

Naively I didn’t query if the loan car needed to be insured by me and I just assumed it was insured under their traders policy. At no point did they tell me I needed to insure it or ask me if my own insurance covers me hence my assumption.

Yup, very naive. You're the driver; it's not their job to tell you you need to insure it (although decent customer service would dictate they should have done), it's 100% your job to ask.

I'm afraid legally, you haven't got a leg to stand on.

I'd disagree completely.
You would 100% expect what is effectively a courtesy car to be insured by the providing dealership. I can't say I have ever had to insure one separately.

At the very least, the dealer should have told the OP that in this instance it was his responsibility to insure the car.

Find me the law or legislation that says that. Look up the offence of driving with no insurance and tell me where the exception is for driving a garage courtesy car. There is one get out for driving without insurance where you are entitled to assume it's insured, and that's driving a company vehicle provided by your full time employer on an ongoing basis. That's it.

We can all expect better customer service than the OP received, and think we should be told, or asked to cover the car, but it ain't gonna get you off a no insurance charge or out of a civil claim for damages on a car you were driving without insurance.

I am not debating what the law is, that's black and white.

Exactly. Read what I wrote, and read what you wrote.

Me: I'm afraid legally, you haven't got a leg to stand on.
You: I'd disagree completely.