Discussion
Evening all.
I'm suffering with HAVS (hand/arm vibration syndrome, sometimes known as vibration white finger). It's been diagnosed by the healthcare provider that my employer uses, as 'late stage 3'. It affects all fingers and both hands (I used the sanders ambidextrously)
I've used vibrating sanders heavily in my employment, the most recently of which was during a 6-8 month period in 2022, when some days I'd spend much of the work day solidly using them, at times for 2+hrs with no break.
I noticed how bad my hands were getting as the weather got colder that Autumn, and pointed it out at my work medical. They investigated, and even after they started investigating it, my then-manager tried to get me back onto the job where I was using the sanders - obviously I refused. They're now at the stage where it affects my quality of life quite dramatically. I don't have to be exposed to cold for long at all for my hands to become numb, which is then followed by pain. Cars and coffee events in anything other than summer, I just tend to not bother any more as I just end up in pain. I can't work on my cars for 6-8 months of the year without being in pain. Even as I sit here typing this, in my 26 degree living room, all of my fingers are cold.
I'm at the stage of signing the paperwork with my union-provided law firm to initiate a claim. I'm very hesitant to, as after speaking to my solicitor she explained that she expected the amount awarded to be 'under £10k'. As someone in my 20s, this is going to affect me and detract from my quality of life for potentially 60+ years. I feel that this amount is pretty insulting.
From a quick Google, the amounts potentially awarded for my level of severity are much higher than the sub-£10k I've been told. I know that because my solicitor is provided by the union, I get to keep 100% of any damages, and another solicitor is going to take their cut.
I'm just wondering if it's worth looking into going through another solicitor, or do I just commit to going ahead with this claim?
I'm suffering with HAVS (hand/arm vibration syndrome, sometimes known as vibration white finger). It's been diagnosed by the healthcare provider that my employer uses, as 'late stage 3'. It affects all fingers and both hands (I used the sanders ambidextrously)
I've used vibrating sanders heavily in my employment, the most recently of which was during a 6-8 month period in 2022, when some days I'd spend much of the work day solidly using them, at times for 2+hrs with no break.
I noticed how bad my hands were getting as the weather got colder that Autumn, and pointed it out at my work medical. They investigated, and even after they started investigating it, my then-manager tried to get me back onto the job where I was using the sanders - obviously I refused. They're now at the stage where it affects my quality of life quite dramatically. I don't have to be exposed to cold for long at all for my hands to become numb, which is then followed by pain. Cars and coffee events in anything other than summer, I just tend to not bother any more as I just end up in pain. I can't work on my cars for 6-8 months of the year without being in pain. Even as I sit here typing this, in my 26 degree living room, all of my fingers are cold.
I'm at the stage of signing the paperwork with my union-provided law firm to initiate a claim. I'm very hesitant to, as after speaking to my solicitor she explained that she expected the amount awarded to be 'under £10k'. As someone in my 20s, this is going to affect me and detract from my quality of life for potentially 60+ years. I feel that this amount is pretty insulting.
From a quick Google, the amounts potentially awarded for my level of severity are much higher than the sub-£10k I've been told. I know that because my solicitor is provided by the union, I get to keep 100% of any damages, and another solicitor is going to take their cut.
I'm just wondering if it's worth looking into going through another solicitor, or do I just commit to going ahead with this claim?
Foremost, I am sorry to hear of your situation and the effect this is having on you. I work in a role where I try to stop this happening to people like yourself.
Do you know if your employer has reported your case of HAVS to the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) under the Reporting of Injuries Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulation (RIDDOR)? You should receive a copy to your home address.
Info here:
https://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/occupational-disease...
You are likely to be sent for more detailed testing too.
Having dealt with a few HAVS claims over the years, lots will be taken into account, including the affect on your personal life, your ability to work etc. the 10k you mentioned seems low, however there are many factors that will be considered. It may be worth seeking a solicitor that specialises in occupational health and HAVS claims.
Your employer should also have made you aware of the risks from HAVS and had risk assessments in place to monitor your vibration exposure levels each day. You haven’t mentioned any monitoring and the fact you’re now experiencing HAVS suggests this was inadequate. So there is likely to be an investigation into the company and potential prosecution and fine there too as well as your civil case.
Do you know if your employer has reported your case of HAVS to the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) under the Reporting of Injuries Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulation (RIDDOR)? You should receive a copy to your home address.
Info here:
https://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/occupational-disease...
You are likely to be sent for more detailed testing too.
Having dealt with a few HAVS claims over the years, lots will be taken into account, including the affect on your personal life, your ability to work etc. the 10k you mentioned seems low, however there are many factors that will be considered. It may be worth seeking a solicitor that specialises in occupational health and HAVS claims.
Your employer should also have made you aware of the risks from HAVS and had risk assessments in place to monitor your vibration exposure levels each day. You haven’t mentioned any monitoring and the fact you’re now experiencing HAVS suggests this was inadequate. So there is likely to be an investigation into the company and potential prosecution and fine there too as well as your civil case.
Edited by BlindedByTheLights on Sunday 24th March 22:29
Thank you for the quick reply!
I'm not aware of it being reported under RIDDOR despite being diagnosed officially in January last year. I've certainly had nothing in the post aside from a copy of the report drawn up by the doctor at work.
I'm not familiar with the legal system at all, so forgive my ignorance, but who actually calculates the claim amount? I assume the solicitor calculates it and then presents it to my employer?
I'm not aware of it being reported under RIDDOR despite being diagnosed officially in January last year. I've certainly had nothing in the post aside from a copy of the report drawn up by the doctor at work.
I'm not familiar with the legal system at all, so forgive my ignorance, but who actually calculates the claim amount? I assume the solicitor calculates it and then presents it to my employer?
Jaaack said:
Thank you for the quick reply!
I'm not aware of it being reported under RIDDOR despite being diagnosed officially in January last year. I've certainly had nothing in the post aside from a copy of the report drawn up by the doctor at work.
I'm not familiar with the legal system at all, so forgive my ignorance, but who actually calculates the claim amount? I assume the solicitor calculates it and then presents it to my employer?
You may find this useful as it sets out the process:I'm not aware of it being reported under RIDDOR despite being diagnosed officially in January last year. I've certainly had nothing in the post aside from a copy of the report drawn up by the doctor at work.
I'm not familiar with the legal system at all, so forgive my ignorance, but who actually calculates the claim amount? I assume the solicitor calculates it and then presents it to my employer?
https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/...
Through your Union Insurance you may be able to choose different solicitors so worth seeing if there are specialist if you’re not happy with the current allocated solicitors.
It terms of who decides the amount, this depends where in the process it gets to. The employers solicitors may make an offer to your solicitors, this is what usually happens. If there isn’t an agreement then it may go to court and the court can award damages. This is separate to any criminal investigation the HSE may undertake and any prosecution and fine resulting from this.
Edited by BlindedByTheLights on Sunday 24th March 22:50
HAVS scores for all equipment should be available for any staff using them I believe. Each one will have a time limit on it for its use, but that's as far as my knowledge goes.
We have the have them built into our risk assessments at work for equipment we use, so your employer should have also done the same I'd imagine.
We have the have them built into our risk assessments at work for equipment we use, so your employer should have also done the same I'd imagine.
no help with your civil claim, i'm afraid, but please make sure this is reported to the HSE (I have a vested interest) just to protect others in future. The healthcare provider should have told your employer that this is RIDDOR reportable but if they haven't you can contact the CAT team here https://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/tell-us-about-a-hea...
This sounds very serious (btw there is no late stage 3 but there is late stage 2 or stage 3 HAVS - stage 3 is considered disabling) and to have reached either stage in your 20s is very concerning. As an indication, the highest vibration sanders - random-orbital or DA - should never be used for more than an hour and a quarter in any single day.
This sounds very serious (btw there is no late stage 3 but there is late stage 2 or stage 3 HAVS - stage 3 is considered disabling) and to have reached either stage in your 20s is very concerning. As an indication, the highest vibration sanders - random-orbital or DA - should never be used for more than an hour and a quarter in any single day.
If my experience of HSE and RIDDOR is representative, the chances of the employer being hauled up for not reporting an incident that falls under RIDDOR is about zero.
A failure to report under RIDDOR has more value as evidence of the employers cavalier attitude than anything else.
Just to add, union solicitor is probably Thompson's Law. I would seriously think about one that will provide rehabilitation as part of their service as just financial recompense will not improve your condition which is ultimately what you want.
I believe solicitor fees under no win no fee agreements are capped at 25%.
A failure to report under RIDDOR has more value as evidence of the employers cavalier attitude than anything else.
Just to add, union solicitor is probably Thompson's Law. I would seriously think about one that will provide rehabilitation as part of their service as just financial recompense will not improve your condition which is ultimately what you want.
I believe solicitor fees under no win no fee agreements are capped at 25%.
Edited by FMOB on Friday 12th April 15:15
I can't help with the problem but i would think very, very carefully about using the Union in bringing a claim. This would be dependent on which Union it is and how big your company is (are there permanent Union reps on site ?).
I spoke to someone last year that was convinced "the Union" had got them a great deal in an injury claim for something that will potentially affect them the rest of their life. The company used a taxi to bring them to work where they were unable to do their normal job for over a year due to the injury which led me to believe the incident wasn't reported to the HSE and the accident was due to a working practice that would have seen anyone in just about any organisation in the UK removed from site for sanctioning it.
The sum they received was so small i initially thought i had misheard. Go and see a private Solicitor for an initial consultation at least, many moons ago i did that and it didn't cost me a penny. The Lawyer billed the insurance company for their time and i received the full amount claimed, was only a few k but it brought about a physical change that ensured the same accident couldn't happen again.
I spoke to someone last year that was convinced "the Union" had got them a great deal in an injury claim for something that will potentially affect them the rest of their life. The company used a taxi to bring them to work where they were unable to do their normal job for over a year due to the injury which led me to believe the incident wasn't reported to the HSE and the accident was due to a working practice that would have seen anyone in just about any organisation in the UK removed from site for sanctioning it.
The sum they received was so small i initially thought i had misheard. Go and see a private Solicitor for an initial consultation at least, many moons ago i did that and it didn't cost me a penny. The Lawyer billed the insurance company for their time and i received the full amount claimed, was only a few k but it brought about a physical change that ensured the same accident couldn't happen again.
Hi OP
Firstly, sorry to hear of your diagnosis and the problems/restrictions that arise from it.
I'd be very surprised if any solicitor could put an accurate valuation on your case at present.
By way of background I was a solicitor specialising in industrial diseases for 15 years before calling to the bar a few years ago. I still have a predominantly industrial disease caseload, including HAVS claims. The below is for general assistance.
While a diagnosis from an occupational health provider is normally the starting point for most claims, it is usual to instruct a report from an independent vascular surgeon or a hand surgeon for the purposes of the claim. The staging made by the OH doctor is unlikely to be the evidence relied upon for the purposes of your claim.
I suspect that the solicitor you have spoken to may also have been managing your expectations, HAVS claims can be very difficult and there are often significant difficulties in being able to prove liability, causation and quantum. Bear in mind that the compensation and court process is an adversarial one and there will often be experts both for the claimant and the defendant giving different opinions. Often the experts will look to see if there are any other potential causes for your symptoms as well.
Even from the information you have provided so far there are a few factors that I would identify as being potentially problematic, typically a HAVS client is much older that you - you are very young firstly to have developed HAVs and secondly the question is what is your likely total exposure both over your working life. While sanders are vibrating tools, the vibration produced means it takes many hours of use in a day get to either Exposure Action Level or the Exposure Limit Level which are the thresholds for civil negligence.
There can also be issues as HAVS is a cumulative condition and any and all vibration exposure will have contributed towards it, this means when pursing a claim, to recover full value all of your negligent employers need to be pursued - this is not always possible if they are out of business or didn't have insurance. It can get more complicated if some exposure falls below the threshold for negligence or if you have significant exposure through self employment as no recovery can be made for that part of your exposure.
The point where an accurate valuation can be made is when your claim has been fully investigated and your solicitors have medical reports and know what the likely impact of your condition will be in terms of any wage loss or restriction on the labour market. Please bear in mind if you are googling that any significant awards you might find invariable include these, which are very fact dependant and one person may recover a significant amount for wage loss while another person with the same injury might get none at all, for example consider a broken ankle and the effect upon a labourer as compared to a home office worker.
In broad terms, lawyers when valuing the injury element of a case will often look to a book called the Judicial College Guidelines for the Assessment of General Damages in Personal Injury Cases. The most recent version was published a few weeks ago and it sets a range for HAVS from £3,650 to £46,900 - where you fall on that scale would depend on the medical evidence in your case - what you actually receive can be a very different story as that involves taking into account the various risks and issues that arise in your case!
You are entitled to instruct a lawyer of your choice, you don't need to go with the Union but if you are looking elsewhere do ask them what their cut provides, are they going to instruct the proper experts at an early stage, is there funding for a court action if needed (it probably will be) and what about protection from adverse costs in general and in particular what happens if you fail to beat a part 36 offer (formal offer in court). I would also beware of lawyers that from the off - throw around large figures before making investigations - IMHO lawyers tend to be a conservative lot and those with experience know that any number you give to a client tends to be fixated on and it's better to be pessimistic and get more than promise the earth and then have to talk the case down at a later stage!
Firstly, sorry to hear of your diagnosis and the problems/restrictions that arise from it.
I'd be very surprised if any solicitor could put an accurate valuation on your case at present.
By way of background I was a solicitor specialising in industrial diseases for 15 years before calling to the bar a few years ago. I still have a predominantly industrial disease caseload, including HAVS claims. The below is for general assistance.
While a diagnosis from an occupational health provider is normally the starting point for most claims, it is usual to instruct a report from an independent vascular surgeon or a hand surgeon for the purposes of the claim. The staging made by the OH doctor is unlikely to be the evidence relied upon for the purposes of your claim.
I suspect that the solicitor you have spoken to may also have been managing your expectations, HAVS claims can be very difficult and there are often significant difficulties in being able to prove liability, causation and quantum. Bear in mind that the compensation and court process is an adversarial one and there will often be experts both for the claimant and the defendant giving different opinions. Often the experts will look to see if there are any other potential causes for your symptoms as well.
Even from the information you have provided so far there are a few factors that I would identify as being potentially problematic, typically a HAVS client is much older that you - you are very young firstly to have developed HAVs and secondly the question is what is your likely total exposure both over your working life. While sanders are vibrating tools, the vibration produced means it takes many hours of use in a day get to either Exposure Action Level or the Exposure Limit Level which are the thresholds for civil negligence.
There can also be issues as HAVS is a cumulative condition and any and all vibration exposure will have contributed towards it, this means when pursing a claim, to recover full value all of your negligent employers need to be pursued - this is not always possible if they are out of business or didn't have insurance. It can get more complicated if some exposure falls below the threshold for negligence or if you have significant exposure through self employment as no recovery can be made for that part of your exposure.
The point where an accurate valuation can be made is when your claim has been fully investigated and your solicitors have medical reports and know what the likely impact of your condition will be in terms of any wage loss or restriction on the labour market. Please bear in mind if you are googling that any significant awards you might find invariable include these, which are very fact dependant and one person may recover a significant amount for wage loss while another person with the same injury might get none at all, for example consider a broken ankle and the effect upon a labourer as compared to a home office worker.
In broad terms, lawyers when valuing the injury element of a case will often look to a book called the Judicial College Guidelines for the Assessment of General Damages in Personal Injury Cases. The most recent version was published a few weeks ago and it sets a range for HAVS from £3,650 to £46,900 - where you fall on that scale would depend on the medical evidence in your case - what you actually receive can be a very different story as that involves taking into account the various risks and issues that arise in your case!
You are entitled to instruct a lawyer of your choice, you don't need to go with the Union but if you are looking elsewhere do ask them what their cut provides, are they going to instruct the proper experts at an early stage, is there funding for a court action if needed (it probably will be) and what about protection from adverse costs in general and in particular what happens if you fail to beat a part 36 offer (formal offer in court). I would also beware of lawyers that from the off - throw around large figures before making investigations - IMHO lawyers tend to be a conservative lot and those with experience know that any number you give to a client tends to be fixated on and it's better to be pessimistic and get more than promise the earth and then have to talk the case down at a later stage!
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