Registering as Historic (and other things)

[Lotobear]

I bought a 1968 Elan as a lockdown project which had been off the road for well over 30 years hence pre SORN. It's a restoration in progress - 80% of the way there but probably a year from hitting the road.

I've just moved house so have registered the new address on the V5 online. All good.

However I should really register it as a historic and SORN it too. In addition I've done a colour change.

I'm worried about hitting them with too many changes/requests in one go - are there any pitfalls in doing so or things to avoid. The car is 100% kosher BTW and nothing to hide, no major changes save for colour.

[aeropilot]

I'd wait until you are closer to getting on the road to notify colour change, maybe when you take it off SORN prior to going back on road?
Although, they may hold that up and ask for photo evidence etc.,etc, so if you don't want to risk any delays in getting it on the road when the time comes, maybe do the colour change when you put it on SORN?

Edited by aeropilot on Monday 4th November 13:21

[ARHarh]

I don't know the answer to this but thought I would mention it. As it has changed owners, admittedly some time ago, should it not have been sorned then. As tax ends when the car changes owner does the sorned status not change then as well. I know it was pre sorn days when it was last used. Don't take the chance would be my view.

[OutInTheShed]

ARHarh said:

I don't know the answer to this but thought I would mention it. As it has changed owners, admittedly some time ago, should it not have been sorned then. As tax ends when the car changes owner does the sorned status not change then as well. I know it was pre sorn days when it was last used. Don't take the chance would be my view.

Indeed.
AIUI, if you have a V5 for it, you need to SORN it or tax it and insure it.

Change of keeper deletes the SORN.

Or was it not UK registered?
In which case there is a different path to follow.

[Lotobear]

...just checked online and tax was due in 1991 so it shows a 'untaxed' status.

...so I guess my first step is to SORN it once the new V5 comes back, do the colour change and then register as historic when I 'tax' it. I managed to do this (heritage status) at my local post office with a previous car so can hopefully do this again without some clerk at DVLA getting 'jobsworth' about it all.

[TaurusMexico]

OutInTheShed said:

Change of keeper deletes the SORN.

My understanding of the process here is that as the car was taken off the road prior to any requirement to declare SORN then there is still no liability to declare SORN as there was no previous tax/SORN to cancel. I also suspect that you will find it nigh on impossible to declare as SORN at this stage (although happy to be proven wrong).

Once you get the new V5c back with the change of address I'd perhaps get that sent off with the change of colour. Whilst this MIGHT trigger a letter from DVLA requiring further info you shouldn't run into too many issues as you say that it's all unmodified apart from the change of colour (and I'm sure you can provide them with photos to demonstrate this if necessary).

The advantage of doing this in advance of taxing the car is to get the paperwork out of the way and pre-empt any potential for delays.

Unless things have changed...you won't be able to get the status changed to "Historic" until you're ready to tax the car as that appears to be a separate process to any other changes and is still dealt with via the Post Office counter rather than online/direct with DVLA.

[Lotobear]

TaurusMexico said:

OutInTheShed said:

Change of keeper deletes the SORN.

My understanding of the process here is that as the car was taken off the road prior to any requirement to declare SORN then there is still no liability to declare SORN as there was no previous tax/SORN to cancel. I also suspect that you will find it nigh on impossible to declare as SORN at this stage (although happy to be proven wrong).

Once you get the new V5c back with the change of address I'd perhaps get that sent off with the change of colour. Whilst this MIGHT trigger a letter from DVLA requiring further info you shouldn't run into too many issues as you say that it's all unmodified apart from the change of colour (and I'm sure you can provide them with photos to demonstrate this if necessary).

The advantage of doing this in advance of taxing the car is to get the paperwork out of the way and pre-empt any potential for delays.

Unless things have changed...you won't be able to get the status changed to "Historic" until you're ready to tax the car as that appears to be a separate process to any other changes and is still dealt with via the Post Office counter rather than online/direct with DVLA.

Thanks for this - yes, I think this is correct as it aligns with my memory of what happened with a previous car which had been off road before SORN came in, and why I never SORNED that one either.

And I recall 'taxing' the car when it was ready for the road and doing the historic registration together at the local PO.

I have plenty of photos so hoepfully I can satisfy them if they get awkward.

Thanks for all the comments/help!

[OutInTheShed]

TaurusMexico said:

My understanding of the process here is that as the car was taken off the road prior to any requirement to declare SORN then there is still no liability to declare SORN as there was no previous tax/SORN to cancel. I also suspect that you will find it nigh on impossible to declare as SORN at this stage (although happy to be proven wrong).
.....

My understanding, from people who've imported bikes from abroad, is that once you apply for a V5, i.e. 'become the keeper', you must, in theory, tax and insure or SORN. Tax may be at zero rate. However a lot slips through the cracks at DVLC.

If it didn't have a previous V5C, then it might be off the system and you couldn't use the automatic process to get a new V5C or declare SORN, so you'd be in the murky areas of waiting for manual paperwork?

Are we talking about a car that's been untaxed long enough not to have a current -style V5C, or has been 'in the trade'?
As distinct from a car that's fully on the DVLA system just listed as 'not taxed or SORN'?

There are old vehicles lying about, which are 'dormant' to the point of DVLA not knowing if they still exist or not, vehicles which haven't been taxed or had a change of keeper recorded for avery long time. Then you're into proving the identity and all that before getting a V5C.

[TaurusMexico]

OutInTheShed said:

My understanding, from people who've imported bikes from abroad, is that once you apply for a V5, i.e. 'become the keeper', you must, in theory, tax and insure or SORN. Tax may be at zero rate. However a lot slips through the cracks at DVLC.

If it didn't have a previous V5C, then it might be off the system and you couldn't use the automatic process to get a new V5C or declare SORN, so you'd be in the murky areas of waiting for manual paperwork?

Are we talking about a car that's been untaxed long enough not to have a current -style V5C, or has been 'in the trade'?
As distinct from a car that's fully on the DVLA system just listed as 'not taxed or SORN'?

There are old vehicles lying about, which are 'dormant' to the point of DVLA not knowing if they still exist or not, vehicles which haven't been taxed or had a change of keeper recorded for avery long time. Then you're into proving the identity and all that before getting a V5C.

That very much sounds like the process I would expect for somebody importing a car/bike from abroad and thus receiving a first UK registration and V5c at that point.

The situation here seems to be different in that the OP purchased the car several years ago (as a lockdown project) and no doubt at that point applied for the V5c as the new keeper. Given that they were able to change the address via the online portal that suggests that they were already in posession of a current valid V5c

Subsequently the OP has :

- moved house
- changed colour of car
- almost finished the rebuild and wants to tax as "historic" class

Only after the 3rd of those is actioned will there then come a requirement to either Tax or SORN, although with the historic tax being £0 there is really no point putting a classic on SORN any more other than if you decide to no longer insure it as (due to the Continuous Insurance rules) if a car is "taxed" it now MUST be insured.

[Lotobear]

TaurusMexico said:

OutInTheShed said:

My understanding, from people who've imported bikes from abroad, is that once you apply for a V5, i.e. 'become the keeper', you must, in theory, tax and insure or SORN. Tax may be at zero rate. However a lot slips through the cracks at DVLC.

If it didn't have a previous V5C, then it might be off the system and you couldn't use the automatic process to get a new V5C or declare SORN, so you'd be in the murky areas of waiting for manual paperwork?

Are we talking about a car that's been untaxed long enough not to have a current -style V5C, or has been 'in the trade'?
As distinct from a car that's fully on the DVLA system just listed as 'not taxed or SORN'?

There are old vehicles lying about, which are 'dormant' to the point of DVLA not knowing if they still exist or not, vehicles which haven't been taxed or had a change of keeper recorded for avery long time. Then you're into proving the identity and all that before getting a V5C.

That very much sounds like the process I would expect for somebody importing a car/bike from abroad and thus receiving a first UK registration and V5c at that point.

The situation here seems to be different in that the OP purchased the car several years ago (as a lockdown project) and no doubt at that point applied for the V5c as the new keeper. Given that they were able to change the address via the online portal that suggests that they were already in posession of a current valid V5c

Subsequently the OP has :

- moved house
- changed colour of car
- almost finished the rebuild and wants to tax as "historic" class

Only after the 3rd of those is actioned will there then come a requirement to either Tax or SORN, although with the historic tax being £0 there is really no point putting a classic on SORN any more other than if you decide to no longer insure it as (due to the Continuous Insurance rules) if a car is "taxed" it now MUST be insured.

Exactly describes my position!

[OutInTheShed]

If you've got a V5C, you should be able to SORN it.
You might not be able to, because lots of stuff in Swansea is broken.
Legally, AIUI, you need to SORN it.

If you've still got the new keeper's bit of the previous V5C you could also try SORNing it with the ref number from that.
Or you can allegedly do it by phone.
Or by post. There is a form for vehicles where you've not got a V5C.

As registered keeper of an unSORNed, untaxed and maybe uninsured vehicle you are risking fines and hassle.

[Lotobear]

If Honest John is to be regarded as good authority, the position is:

"A Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN) is not required for vehicles kept off the public road, where no vehicle tax was in force on or after 31 January, 1998. In order to put a vehicle back on the road, you will need an MoT and insurance. You can then use your vehicle registration certificate (V5 or V5C) online, provided a reference number is available on the document. If you only have an-old style V5, you can get a new V5C from DVSA. The old V5 should be sent to DVSA, Swansea, SA6 1ZZ with a request to update the document. Alternatively, you can present a V5 or V5C at a Post Office branch. Once the vehicle is taxed, a future SORN will only be required if the vehicle is taken off the road where vehicle tax or motor insurance is not being renewed. "

...as my Elan was last taxed in 1990 and not renewed in 1991 this seems to put me in the clear.

[austin]

I changed one of mine to historic by just going to the local Post Office and asking the nice lady behind the counter. New V5 arrived a couple of weeks later.

[OutInTheShed]

I was led to believe that is over-ridden by a change of keeper, but I'm not sure.

[B'stard Child]

OutInTheShed said:

If you've got a V5C, you should be able to SORN it.
You might not be able to, because lots of stuff in Swansea is broken.
Legally, AIUI, you need to SORN it.

If you've still got the new keeper's bit of the previous V5C you could also try SORNing it with the ref number from that.
Or you can allegedly do it by phone.
Or by post. There is a form for vehicles where you've not got a V5C.

As registered keeper of an unSORNed, untaxed and maybe uninsured vehicle you are risking fines and hassle.

If the car was untaxed prior to introduction of SORN you cannot SORN it.

It can change keepers 100 times it doesn’t change that

The legislation cannot be applied retrospectively

I have one motorcycle and one car that were off the road pre SORN - I have up to date registration docs for both

Once either of them are taxed they then become liable fir SORN once the tax runs out or is surrendered

HTH

[OutInTheShed]

TarquinMX5 said:

I don't know the answer but if you haven't seen this, it might be worth a look:

Para 4. Exemptions
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997/3025/regu...


However, does 7.3 override para 4, OR, does para 4 mean it all stops there?
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997/3025/regu...

My gut feeling is that registering a new keeper, after 1998, kick-starts the system back into use. Logically, that would make sense as the exemption was probably introduced to cater for 'existing' conditions and not to retrospectively apply the new rules. However, I haven't looked to see if there's any case law on the matter and, in my humble opinion, logic doesn't always (ever?) apply when legislation is drafted.

No doubt a good 'barista' could earn a few pennies debating it.

For the cost of a stamp, I might SORN the bugger and know everything is sorted.
Except stamps have got pricey of late!

I think the intent of the legislation is clear, to exempt vehicles which have been out of circulation since before the rules came in.
The current .gov guidance is clear, you buy a vehicle, you must tax it or SORN it, zombie vehicles which have been in limbo for over 25 years are probably a few dozen a year getting new V5c's ?

Why would a keeper not want it SORN?

I was 'keeper' of more than a couple of 'not actually on the road' vehicles back when these rules came in. I had a small yard full of the remains of bikes which at the time needed SORNing or scrapping.
AIUI, the exemption for zombie vehicles was put in place retrospectively a few years layer?
There was big panic at the time among people who had lots of junk vehicles like LandRovers 'bought for spares'. Loads of people had V5s for vehicles which were at best, a pile of bits and some scrap.
I still have one of those 'projects' which has been SORN for 25 years.

[B'stard Child]

OutInTheShed said:

For the cost of a stamp, I might SORN the bugger and know everything is sorted.
Except stamps have got pricey of late!

Try it - DVLA will send it back as refused

My motorcycle had no history and I didn't realise it had been off the road for as long as it had - cover my arse - I applied for SORN by mail - Guess what got sent back!!!

OutInTheShed said:

I think the intent of the legislation is clear, to exempt vehicles which have been out of circulation since before the rules came in.
The current .gov guidance is clear, you buy a vehicle, you must tax it or SORN it, zombie vehicles which have been in limbo for over 25 years are probably a few dozen a year getting new V5c's ?

They may well be zombie vehicles in your eyes but if their off road status predates the legislation then when they change hands you get a new V5 and there is no requirement to SORN

OutInTheShed said:

Why would a keeper not want it SORN?

Because when the SORN system was introduced you had to do it very bloody year - it's only recently that SORN status no longer needed renewing every year but is a one time thing until the vehicle is re-taxed and secondly it is not required.

OutInTheShed said:

I was 'keeper' of more than a couple of 'not actually on the road' vehicles back when these rules came in. I had a small yard full of the remains of bikes which at the time needed SORNing or scrapping.
AIUI, the exemption for zombie vehicles was put in place retrospectively a few years layer?
There was big panic at the time among people who had lots of junk vehicles like LandRovers 'bought for spares'. Loads of people had V5s for vehicles which were at best, a pile of bits and some scrap.
I still have one of those 'projects' which has been SORN for 25 years.

The exception for vehicles already off the road was introduced at the same time as the legislation in 1998......

Your project of 25 years clearly just missed out from the exemption

Mine other project didn't - 1972 registered purchased it June 2006 and it was last taxed in 1991................... I have up to date Reg Doc and there is no requirement to SORN.

If I ever finish it and get it MOT'd and taxed - then for the winter months I'll have to SORN

[OutInTheShed]

There was a lot of discussion on a motorbike forum I used to follow at the time SORN came in but it's disappeared now.

The rhetoric of the day was that huge numbers of registered vehicles were neither taxed, MOT'd nor insured. A higher % of motorbikes.
The powers that be simply did not believe that so many people had multiple bikes registered that they were not actually using.