mot exempt. how?
Discussion
im thinking of buying a camper which will take my race mini in the back - most likely a converted bus or mobile library - which is simply a 7.5 ton truck but very boxlike with no seperate cab. however i have a few questions which neither dvla (very helpful for once tho!) or vosa (always helpful!) can fully answer.
so i thought id ask u lot!
a bus or libary converted to take a car in the back is classed (possibly, dvla and vosa disagree on this ) as a 'living van' rather than a camper or motorhome and can be driven without a tacho (as long as for own use) on a car licence, this bit makes sense. if its a 7.5 ton (which a library van is as it started life a lorry) it needs a 'plate' and a m.o.t at a vosa centre (which surprisingly is less than 50 quid!), i assume a bus is the same, i.e can be driven on a car licence. most of the above makes sense.
however.....
a couple of converted buses that i have looked at have been mot exempt, with a dvla form stating this. however vosa reckon that this is incorrect and that either a motorhome, camper or living van would have to be mot'd and plated (if a ex-7.5 truck)
obviouisly a mot exempt bus is a attractive proposition, but how safe will it be??, my questions are:-
1) how legal would it be if i was pulled?
2) i assume there is a loophole that allowed it to happen in the first place, but is it the case that once its happened its fine? i.e as long as a bus is never mot'd again it will remain exempt?
3)my bother is under 25 and would have to take his truck test to drive a library made from a 7.5 tonner, but what about a bus?. one of the busses i looked at was classed as a plg on the v5, surley some mistake?(and tax exempt)
4) what is i where to have a accident and had the paperwork to prove it was mot exempt - it must be a very grey area as to whether the vehicle is of a motable standard?
my head is spinning!!!!!!!
theres a virtual pint for anybody who knows the score!!! - and a ticket to come and watch me race next year free! (unless you want to come to rockingham in 2 weeks)
so i thought id ask u lot!
a bus or libary converted to take a car in the back is classed (possibly, dvla and vosa disagree on this ) as a 'living van' rather than a camper or motorhome and can be driven without a tacho (as long as for own use) on a car licence, this bit makes sense. if its a 7.5 ton (which a library van is as it started life a lorry) it needs a 'plate' and a m.o.t at a vosa centre (which surprisingly is less than 50 quid!), i assume a bus is the same, i.e can be driven on a car licence. most of the above makes sense.
however.....
a couple of converted buses that i have looked at have been mot exempt, with a dvla form stating this. however vosa reckon that this is incorrect and that either a motorhome, camper or living van would have to be mot'd and plated (if a ex-7.5 truck)
obviouisly a mot exempt bus is a attractive proposition, but how safe will it be??, my questions are:-
1) how legal would it be if i was pulled?
2) i assume there is a loophole that allowed it to happen in the first place, but is it the case that once its happened its fine? i.e as long as a bus is never mot'd again it will remain exempt?
3)my bother is under 25 and would have to take his truck test to drive a library made from a 7.5 tonner, but what about a bus?. one of the busses i looked at was classed as a plg on the v5, surley some mistake?(and tax exempt)
4) what is i where to have a accident and had the paperwork to prove it was mot exempt - it must be a very grey area as to whether the vehicle is of a motable standard?
my head is spinning!!!!!!!
theres a virtual pint for anybody who knows the score!!! - and a ticket to come and watch me race next year free! (unless you want to come to rockingham in 2 weeks)
ah ha!
i think this is what has happened with these buses. but is it something that can be taken away?
im sure that fire engines dont have mots, but what happen when they are sold and no longer a fire engine????
im just worried that i buy one and get nicked for driving a un mot'd bus
would you like a virtual pint? (will need to see i.d, no smoking at the bar!)
i think this is what has happened with these buses. but is it something that can be taken away?
im sure that fire engines dont have mots, but what happen when they are sold and no longer a fire engine????
im just worried that i buy one and get nicked for driving a un mot'd bus
would you like a virtual pint? (will need to see i.d, no smoking at the bar!)
Initial thoughts and if I get time in the next few days will have a deeper look (I hate EEC regs that will be involved).
Turned out from new a Camper van is not a goods vehicle i.e. constructed or adapted for the carriage of goods. Under 7.5 tonnes no special GV DL Licence classification required or Goods Plating and Testing/Recording Equipment involved.
So you tear the guts out of the vehicle to carry Goods, the racing car. It has now been adapted. Now it falls within the classification of Goods Vehicle so Vosa no doubt are right and Goods Vehicle Plating and Testing /Recording Recording Equipment Regs apply.
Variance between DVLA and Vosa may be due to the fact that such alterations are not notified. It still appears on sight to be a Camper but inside? DVLA are not going to miss out on extra shekels are they if this is involved.
Be interesting to be a fly on the wall if such a combination was stopped and gone over at a Vosa roadside check.
(Accept please these are just initial thoughts and could carry some water)
dvd
Turned out from new a Camper van is not a goods vehicle i.e. constructed or adapted for the carriage of goods. Under 7.5 tonnes no special GV DL Licence classification required or Goods Plating and Testing/Recording Equipment involved.
So you tear the guts out of the vehicle to carry Goods, the racing car. It has now been adapted. Now it falls within the classification of Goods Vehicle so Vosa no doubt are right and Goods Vehicle Plating and Testing /Recording Recording Equipment Regs apply.
Variance between DVLA and Vosa may be due to the fact that such alterations are not notified. It still appears on sight to be a Camper but inside? DVLA are not going to miss out on extra shekels are they if this is involved.
Be interesting to be a fly on the wall if such a combination was stopped and gone over at a Vosa roadside check.
(Accept please these are just initial thoughts and could carry some water)
dvd
Based on the conversion of a Camper Van Guru:.
When looking at such matters one has to first go to MV (Con and Use) Regs 1986 for various definitions of:
Goods Vehicle: M/veh or trailer constructed or ADAPTED for use for the carriage or haulage of goods or burden of any description.
Motor car - m/veh not being a motor tractor, motor cycle or invalid carriage constructed to carry load or passengers and the weight of which unladen ne 3050k.
Heavy motor car - mpv not being a locomotive, motor tractor or motor car constructed itself to carry a load or passengers and the weight which unladen exceeds 2540k.
Motor caravan - Constructed or adapted for carriage of passengers and their effects and which contains permanently installed equipment and facilties which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide living accommodation for its user. Yet another definition and specifically mentioned for speed limit under RTRA 1984 Schedule 6 Part 1. It can be duplicated with that of a motor car.
With the above in mind then from new and providing a Camper comes in at under 3050k unladen it is a motor car and as such subject to first test after 3 years and then annually.
(MV (Test) Regs 1981).
As a motor car ordinary DL required.
If the vehicle is stripped out and adapted to carry a racing Mini then it becomes a Goods vehicle (see above) but it can still be classed as a motor car if the weight doesn't exceed 3050k and still subject to MOT testing as above.
But it is doubtful that the all up weight of the adapted vehicle will be under 3050k (strengthened floor,ramps,etc)so it loses the motor car classification and comes in as a Heavy motor car (see above).
Under Goods Vehicle (Plating and Testing) Regs 1988 a Heavy motor car needs to be subject to Ministry Plating and Testing which is done by Vosa 1 year after first registration and then annually. If the gross plated weight does not exceed 7.5 tonnes then ordinary DL only required but if over this then special DL classification/test required to drive.
As a Goods vehicle over 3500 k gpw (vehicle plus load) then an Operators Licence is not required as the vehicle is not being used for Hire and reward or used in connection with the owners trade or business.
EEC Regs on Tacho/Drivers Hours according to my notes do not apply as PRIVATE use of vehicles for NON COMMERCIAL carriage of goods for personal use
are exempt.
From the above one can get an idea what the position is in relation to converting an old bus which is no longer being used for carriage of passengers for hire and reward and therefore no longer a PSV and all that entails in relation to Licences/Certificate of Fitness etc. Adapted to carry the Mini it is a goods vehicle and all that entails.
Now this is my interpretaion. The experts in this field and on enforcement is VOSA. Before committing oneself to the actual purchase of vehicle and conversion I would recommend that you book a session with them and go over matters in fine detail.
dvd
When looking at such matters one has to first go to MV (Con and Use) Regs 1986 for various definitions of:
Goods Vehicle: M/veh or trailer constructed or ADAPTED for use for the carriage or haulage of goods or burden of any description.
Motor car - m/veh not being a motor tractor, motor cycle or invalid carriage constructed to carry load or passengers and the weight of which unladen ne 3050k.
Heavy motor car - mpv not being a locomotive, motor tractor or motor car constructed itself to carry a load or passengers and the weight which unladen exceeds 2540k.
Motor caravan - Constructed or adapted for carriage of passengers and their effects and which contains permanently installed equipment and facilties which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide living accommodation for its user. Yet another definition and specifically mentioned for speed limit under RTRA 1984 Schedule 6 Part 1. It can be duplicated with that of a motor car.
With the above in mind then from new and providing a Camper comes in at under 3050k unladen it is a motor car and as such subject to first test after 3 years and then annually.
(MV (Test) Regs 1981).
As a motor car ordinary DL required.
If the vehicle is stripped out and adapted to carry a racing Mini then it becomes a Goods vehicle (see above) but it can still be classed as a motor car if the weight doesn't exceed 3050k and still subject to MOT testing as above.
But it is doubtful that the all up weight of the adapted vehicle will be under 3050k (strengthened floor,ramps,etc)so it loses the motor car classification and comes in as a Heavy motor car (see above).
Under Goods Vehicle (Plating and Testing) Regs 1988 a Heavy motor car needs to be subject to Ministry Plating and Testing which is done by Vosa 1 year after first registration and then annually. If the gross plated weight does not exceed 7.5 tonnes then ordinary DL only required but if over this then special DL classification/test required to drive.
As a Goods vehicle over 3500 k gpw (vehicle plus load) then an Operators Licence is not required as the vehicle is not being used for Hire and reward or used in connection with the owners trade or business.
EEC Regs on Tacho/Drivers Hours according to my notes do not apply as PRIVATE use of vehicles for NON COMMERCIAL carriage of goods for personal use
are exempt.
From the above one can get an idea what the position is in relation to converting an old bus which is no longer being used for carriage of passengers for hire and reward and therefore no longer a PSV and all that entails in relation to Licences/Certificate of Fitness etc. Adapted to carry the Mini it is a goods vehicle and all that entails.
Now this is my interpretaion. The experts in this field and on enforcement is VOSA. Before committing oneself to the actual purchase of vehicle and conversion I would recommend that you book a session with them and go over matters in fine detail.
dvd
I used to drive a mobile commentary unit used for motorcycle race meetings. One of my neighbours objected to the appearance of it and reported it to the police as causing an obstruction. Local BiB comes along, decides that it could not be considered to be an obstruction no matter how you looked at it but gave me a producer anyway. It was at this point (when I asked for a copy of the docs), that the owners of it told me that it had no MoT as it didn't need one. They sent me instead a copy of a letter from DVLA (as this was pre-VOSA days) confirming that mobile offices, libraries and laboratories are exempt and do not require an MoT. They considered it to be a mobile office and, as such, did not need or have one.
Explaining this to the desk jockey in the local nick didn't go down too well. He fetched a Trafpol who read the letter, dismissed it as rubbish and told me that every road vehicle must have an MoT. This then gave me only 2 days of the producer left or I was going to be reported. Phoned local DVLA office and was told to go back to the nick and tell them to get their book out and read it. He then proceeded to quote me the precise Act and Section. This I did and, despite still not believing it even though he was reading the Act, they finally accepted that it didn't need one.
Unfortunately, as this was a number of years ago, I can no longer quote the Act and Section. If I remember right though, the MoT exemption came about because, although being of a weight that meant it needed to be plated, it was exempt from plating. Consequently, it couldn't be given a Goods MoT and was too heavy to be given a car one.
Explaining this to the desk jockey in the local nick didn't go down too well. He fetched a Trafpol who read the letter, dismissed it as rubbish and told me that every road vehicle must have an MoT. This then gave me only 2 days of the producer left or I was going to be reported. Phoned local DVLA office and was told to go back to the nick and tell them to get their book out and read it. He then proceeded to quote me the precise Act and Section. This I did and, despite still not believing it even though he was reading the Act, they finally accepted that it didn't need one.
Unfortunately, as this was a number of years ago, I can no longer quote the Act and Section. If I remember right though, the MoT exemption came about because, although being of a weight that meant it needed to be plated, it was exempt from plating. Consequently, it couldn't be given a Goods MoT and was too heavy to be given a car one.
The exemption you mention Richard is contained at Item 14, Schedule 2, Goods Vehicles (Plating and Testing) Regs 1988.
Cannot come up with anything that would exempt what Guru has in mind in that Reg and a number of amendment Regs that I have had a look at of which there are numerous.
dvd
Cannot come up with anything that would exempt what Guru has in mind in that Reg and a number of amendment Regs that I have had a look at of which there are numerous.
dvd
dvd your a mine of information!!
here is a little more info that makes some more sense.
ive spoken at length to vosa and dvla (who have been spot on, phone was answered quickley etc!)
it does need a mot, it would appear that there is a 'grey' loop hole that in certain circumstances a bus wouldnt need it, but for what i want it does. i think that in the past people have taken advantage of this, but i guess its one of those things thats fine until you get pulled, or crash or you neigbours complain!
however cheers for all your help. i must admit that i had decided that if i do buy it i was going to mot it anyway, its obviously a far safer option shoukd anything happen.
cheers rich.
p.s if you want a couple of racing tickets let me know!
here is a little more info that makes some more sense.
ive spoken at length to vosa and dvla (who have been spot on, phone was answered quickley etc!)
it does need a mot, it would appear that there is a 'grey' loop hole that in certain circumstances a bus wouldnt need it, but for what i want it does. i think that in the past people have taken advantage of this, but i guess its one of those things thats fine until you get pulled, or crash or you neigbours complain!
however cheers for all your help. i must admit that i had decided that if i do buy it i was going to mot it anyway, its obviously a far safer option shoukd anything happen.
cheers rich.
p.s if you want a couple of racing tickets let me know!
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