Dispute with garage
Discussion
Hi All
I'm new to the site and not from a mechanical background so please bear with me.
I run an electro mechanical firm and one of my vans (2019 Vauxhall Vivaro) broke down a few months ago. After getting it recovered to a local garage who gave it a full service 11 months prior, was told the engine was shot due to the oil becoming congealed resulting in major damage. Cut a long story short, they quoted me £5700 to rebuild/recondition the engine and also replace the clutch at the same time.
I agreed and after a month or so was told it was ready to collect. They look after my other vans and usually invoice me within a week or so. Anyway, I collected the van and all seemed fine until it broke down again 6 days later on the motorway.
They came out and recovered it but seemed reluctant to advise on what the issue was but from the noise it made and the amount of oil it deposited on the recovery truck, I feared the worst. They told me they would assess the problem and update me asap. Despite calling daily to find out what was happening, I kept being told they hadn't got round to it yet and would call me back. In the mean time I received their invoice for the works which I said I would settle once the faulty repair had been rectified.
Despite numerous calls and emails I didn't hear back for another two weeks until I received an email from them stating they are not willing to repair it until I have settled the original invoice for the botched repair. On top of this they want to charge me a daily storage charge for the van being on their premises and have threatened legal action if not settled within 14 days. I've also had to rent an additional van at my own cost to cover this one being off the road.
Does that sound right to you guys in the trade? I know that I certainly wouldn't be paid for any defective works my team carried out if they failed within 6 days and wouldn't dream of refusing to rectify them until payment was settled.
Apologies for waffling on I just wanted to see how the land lies before proceeding. Many thanks in advance 👍
I'm new to the site and not from a mechanical background so please bear with me.
I run an electro mechanical firm and one of my vans (2019 Vauxhall Vivaro) broke down a few months ago. After getting it recovered to a local garage who gave it a full service 11 months prior, was told the engine was shot due to the oil becoming congealed resulting in major damage. Cut a long story short, they quoted me £5700 to rebuild/recondition the engine and also replace the clutch at the same time.
I agreed and after a month or so was told it was ready to collect. They look after my other vans and usually invoice me within a week or so. Anyway, I collected the van and all seemed fine until it broke down again 6 days later on the motorway.
They came out and recovered it but seemed reluctant to advise on what the issue was but from the noise it made and the amount of oil it deposited on the recovery truck, I feared the worst. They told me they would assess the problem and update me asap. Despite calling daily to find out what was happening, I kept being told they hadn't got round to it yet and would call me back. In the mean time I received their invoice for the works which I said I would settle once the faulty repair had been rectified.
Despite numerous calls and emails I didn't hear back for another two weeks until I received an email from them stating they are not willing to repair it until I have settled the original invoice for the botched repair. On top of this they want to charge me a daily storage charge for the van being on their premises and have threatened legal action if not settled within 14 days. I've also had to rent an additional van at my own cost to cover this one being off the road.
Does that sound right to you guys in the trade? I know that I certainly wouldn't be paid for any defective works my team carried out if they failed within 6 days and wouldn't dream of refusing to rectify them until payment was settled.
Apologies for waffling on I just wanted to see how the land lies before proceeding. Many thanks in advance 👍
Firstly, sympathies for your predicament. If I were in your shoes, i'd be grabbing a mate (or a mobile mechanic/reputable mechanic if you don't have any mates 'in the trade), going round to that garage and casting an eye over the failed van to see what had failed so soon. As you say, if there was a pool of oil (that was preceded by a loud bang), it could have been terminal engine failure, which as you say would lead me to question why i'd been billed £6k to have the engine rebuilt not even a week beforehand.
Out of interest, did they actually rebuild the original engine, or buy another from a breaker/Facebook Marketplace and install that?
Out of interest, did they actually rebuild the original engine, or buy another from a breaker/Facebook Marketplace and install that?
Sounds awful, sorry to hear of your situation! I asked AI to draft a letter for you, take from it what you will!
Re: Vauxhall Vivaro – Faulty Engine Rebuild & Invoice Dispute
Dear [Garage Manager's Name],
I am writing regarding the engine rebuild and clutch replacement carried out on my 2019 Vauxhall Vivaro, which I collected from your premises on [insert collection date].
As you are aware, the vehicle broke down just 6 days later, on the motorway, with clear signs of major mechanical failure and oil loss. This strongly suggests that the work performed was defective or incomplete.
Despite numerous attempts to obtain an update, your team failed to inspect the vehicle promptly and have now stated that no further work will be undertaken until I have settled your invoice in full. You have also threatened to apply daily storage charges and initiate legal proceedings.
I must be absolutely clear that:
The repair failed within a matter of days, which is not consistent with reasonable care and skill as required under the Consumer Rights Act 2015;
I am entitled to withhold payment while a dispute over the quality of the repair exists;
Your refusal to investigate or rectify the issue unless payment is made is not only unacceptable but potentially unlawful;
Any attempt to charge storage fees while the dispute is ongoing will be strongly resisted, and may be seen as an aggressive commercial practice under UK consumer law;
I have already incurred additional costs in renting a replacement vehicle due to your failure to deliver a roadworthy repair.
Accordingly, I require that you:
Immediately inspect the vehicle and provide a full report on the cause of the latest failure;
Confirm in writing within 7 days that you will investigate the issue and take responsibility for any defective workmanship.
If I do not receive a satisfactory response within 7 days of the date of this letter, I will:
Seek independent expert advice on the repair;
Report the matter to Trading Standards and consider action through the Small Claims Court;
Seek to recover any additional costs, including van hire and legal fees, resulting from your breach of duty.
I hope this matter can still be resolved amicably and promptly. However, I will not hesitate to take further steps if necessary to protect my rights and business.
Yours sincerely,
Re: Vauxhall Vivaro – Faulty Engine Rebuild & Invoice Dispute
Dear [Garage Manager's Name],
I am writing regarding the engine rebuild and clutch replacement carried out on my 2019 Vauxhall Vivaro, which I collected from your premises on [insert collection date].
As you are aware, the vehicle broke down just 6 days later, on the motorway, with clear signs of major mechanical failure and oil loss. This strongly suggests that the work performed was defective or incomplete.
Despite numerous attempts to obtain an update, your team failed to inspect the vehicle promptly and have now stated that no further work will be undertaken until I have settled your invoice in full. You have also threatened to apply daily storage charges and initiate legal proceedings.
I must be absolutely clear that:
The repair failed within a matter of days, which is not consistent with reasonable care and skill as required under the Consumer Rights Act 2015;
I am entitled to withhold payment while a dispute over the quality of the repair exists;
Your refusal to investigate or rectify the issue unless payment is made is not only unacceptable but potentially unlawful;
Any attempt to charge storage fees while the dispute is ongoing will be strongly resisted, and may be seen as an aggressive commercial practice under UK consumer law;
I have already incurred additional costs in renting a replacement vehicle due to your failure to deliver a roadworthy repair.
Accordingly, I require that you:
Immediately inspect the vehicle and provide a full report on the cause of the latest failure;
Confirm in writing within 7 days that you will investigate the issue and take responsibility for any defective workmanship.
If I do not receive a satisfactory response within 7 days of the date of this letter, I will:
Seek independent expert advice on the repair;
Report the matter to Trading Standards and consider action through the Small Claims Court;
Seek to recover any additional costs, including van hire and legal fees, resulting from your breach of duty.
I hope this matter can still be resolved amicably and promptly. However, I will not hesitate to take further steps if necessary to protect my rights and business.
Yours sincerely,
mikewps24 said:
Hi All
I'm new to the site and not from a mechanical background so please bear with me.
I run an electro mechanical firm and one of my vans (2019 Vauxhall Vivaro) broke down a few months ago. After getting it recovered to a local garage who gave it a full service 11 months prior, was told the engine was shot due to the oil becoming congealed resulting in major damage. Cut a long story short, they quoted me £5700 to rebuild/recondition the engine and also replace the clutch at the same time.
I agreed and after a month or so was told it was ready to collect. They look after my other vans and usually invoice me within a week or so. Anyway, I collected the van and all seemed fine until it broke down again 6 days later on the motorway.
They came out and recovered it but seemed reluctant to advise on what the issue was but from the noise it made and the amount of oil it deposited on the recovery truck, I feared the worst. They told me they would assess the problem and update me asap. Despite calling daily to find out what was happening, I kept being told they hadn't got round to it yet and would call me back. In the mean time I received their invoice for the works which I said I would settle once the faulty repair had been rectified.
Despite numerous calls and emails I didn't hear back for another two weeks until I received an email from them stating they are not willing to repair it until I have settled the original invoice for the botched repair. On top of this they want to charge me a daily storage charge for the van being on their premises and have threatened legal action if not settled within 14 days. I've also had to rent an additional van at my own cost to cover this one being off the road.
Does that sound right to you guys in the trade? I know that I certainly wouldn't be paid for any defective works my team carried out if they failed within 6 days and wouldn't dream of refusing to rectify them until payment was settled.
Apologies for waffling on I just wanted to see how the land lies before proceeding. Many thanks in advance ??
More investigation required. There's no evidence the first repair was faulty so the garage is on the hook for a lot of money for a repair which you appear to assume was faulty. An independent inspection is likely necessary to break the deadline but the first issue is that you owe them money.I'm new to the site and not from a mechanical background so please bear with me.
I run an electro mechanical firm and one of my vans (2019 Vauxhall Vivaro) broke down a few months ago. After getting it recovered to a local garage who gave it a full service 11 months prior, was told the engine was shot due to the oil becoming congealed resulting in major damage. Cut a long story short, they quoted me £5700 to rebuild/recondition the engine and also replace the clutch at the same time.
I agreed and after a month or so was told it was ready to collect. They look after my other vans and usually invoice me within a week or so. Anyway, I collected the van and all seemed fine until it broke down again 6 days later on the motorway.
They came out and recovered it but seemed reluctant to advise on what the issue was but from the noise it made and the amount of oil it deposited on the recovery truck, I feared the worst. They told me they would assess the problem and update me asap. Despite calling daily to find out what was happening, I kept being told they hadn't got round to it yet and would call me back. In the mean time I received their invoice for the works which I said I would settle once the faulty repair had been rectified.
Despite numerous calls and emails I didn't hear back for another two weeks until I received an email from them stating they are not willing to repair it until I have settled the original invoice for the botched repair. On top of this they want to charge me a daily storage charge for the van being on their premises and have threatened legal action if not settled within 14 days. I've also had to rent an additional van at my own cost to cover this one being off the road.
Does that sound right to you guys in the trade? I know that I certainly wouldn't be paid for any defective works my team carried out if they failed within 6 days and wouldn't dream of refusing to rectify them until payment was settled.
Apologies for waffling on I just wanted to see how the land lies before proceeding. Many thanks in advance ??
t situation, not sure what to advise.Unreal said:
More investigation required. There's no evidence the first repair was faulty so the garage is on the hook for a lot of money for a repair which you appear to assume was faulty. An independent inspection is likely necessary to break the deadline but the first issue is that you owe them money.
Withholding payment may not be the correct thing to do, but I sympathise with the OP.As you say an independent inspection is required, this works to the benefit of both parties:
If the work was not faulty, then the garage can quite rightly demand that the OP settles the original bill.
If the work was faulty, then the OP is entitled to hold on to the payment until the van is fixed.
OP, I would be arranging an independent inspection, unfortunately you will have to pay for it, but it's the only logical way forward at this stage.
I guess it’s tricky from a “morally right/principle” standpoint because whilst I like to think that if I re-built someone’s engine, then a few days later it had a catastrophic failure (with an invoice with ‘x’ days payment terms on outstanding), I’d just take the hit and diagnose the issue provided you were still within the agreed invoice terms. That said, realistically the engine re-build/refit was carried out so payment for that is required regardless of this issue. In your shoes, depending on your relationship with the garage which sounds like up to now has been good, is pay the bill and incentivise them to square away the (likely their) issue.
If it’s within the agreed invoice terms (net 30 or whatever it is), I’d probably just try the relationship management route and point out you don’t need to pay them yet anyway, and it’s in everyone’s interests to just get it done. But as I said, work has been carried out (regardless of the outcome of it) and money is owed for that in isolation. It’ll only deteriorate into legal drama if the Ego war commences I think!
If it’s within the agreed invoice terms (net 30 or whatever it is), I’d probably just try the relationship management route and point out you don’t need to pay them yet anyway, and it’s in everyone’s interests to just get it done. But as I said, work has been carried out (regardless of the outcome of it) and money is owed for that in isolation. It’ll only deteriorate into legal drama if the Ego war commences I think!
mikewps24 said:
Hi All
I'm new to the site and not from a mechanical background so please bear with me.
I run an electro mechanical firm and one of my vans (2019 Vauxhall Vivaro) broke down a few months ago. After getting it recovered to a local garage who gave it a full service 11 months prior, was told the engine was shot due to the oil becoming congealed resulting in major damage. Cut a long story short, they quoted me £5700 to rebuild/recondition the engine and also replace the clutch at the same time.
I agreed and after a month or so was told it was ready to collect. They look after my other vans and usually invoice me within a week or so. Anyway, I collected the van and all seemed fine until it broke down again 6 days later on the motorway.
They came out and recovered it but seemed reluctant to advise on what the issue was but from the noise it made and the amount of oil it deposited on the recovery truck, I feared the worst. They told me they would assess the problem and update me asap. Despite calling daily to find out what was happening, I kept being told they hadn't got round to it yet and would call me back. In the mean time I received their invoice for the works which I said I would settle once the faulty repair had been rectified.
Despite numerous calls and emails I didn't hear back for another two weeks until I received an email from them stating they are not willing to repair it until I have settled the original invoice for the botched repair. On top of this they want to charge me a daily storage charge for the van being on their premises and have threatened legal action if not settled within 14 days. I've also had to rent an additional van at my own cost to cover this one being off the road.
Does that sound right to you guys in the trade? I know that I certainly wouldn't be paid for any defective works my team carried out if they failed within 6 days and wouldn't dream of refusing to rectify them until payment was settled.
Apologies for waffling on I just wanted to see how the land lies before proceeding. Many thanks in advance ??
The AI response looks good, garages will never admit responsibility, always fob you off if you usually pay on invoice I'd hold this advantage as long as possible as once you pay they'll be reluctant to help.I'm new to the site and not from a mechanical background so please bear with me.
I run an electro mechanical firm and one of my vans (2019 Vauxhall Vivaro) broke down a few months ago. After getting it recovered to a local garage who gave it a full service 11 months prior, was told the engine was shot due to the oil becoming congealed resulting in major damage. Cut a long story short, they quoted me £5700 to rebuild/recondition the engine and also replace the clutch at the same time.
I agreed and after a month or so was told it was ready to collect. They look after my other vans and usually invoice me within a week or so. Anyway, I collected the van and all seemed fine until it broke down again 6 days later on the motorway.
They came out and recovered it but seemed reluctant to advise on what the issue was but from the noise it made and the amount of oil it deposited on the recovery truck, I feared the worst. They told me they would assess the problem and update me asap. Despite calling daily to find out what was happening, I kept being told they hadn't got round to it yet and would call me back. In the mean time I received their invoice for the works which I said I would settle once the faulty repair had been rectified.
Despite numerous calls and emails I didn't hear back for another two weeks until I received an email from them stating they are not willing to repair it until I have settled the original invoice for the botched repair. On top of this they want to charge me a daily storage charge for the van being on their premises and have threatened legal action if not settled within 14 days. I've also had to rent an additional van at my own cost to cover this one being off the road.
Does that sound right to you guys in the trade? I know that I certainly wouldn't be paid for any defective works my team carried out if they failed within 6 days and wouldn't dream of refusing to rectify them until payment was settled.
Apologies for waffling on I just wanted to see how the land lies before proceeding. Many thanks in advance ??
How much is the van worth with engine/without engine?
Mandat said:
Does the Consumer Rights Act 2015 apply to business - business transactions?
Good question and no - which is why it's called the 'consumer' rights act.I'd proceed with caution here, you formed a contract with the garage for a repair to be conducted, they quoted a price for supply and fit, you agreed, they conducted the works, you accepted the repaired vehicle back.
The only part of consideration left is the outstanding invoice on your side.
I doubt the terms of condition for the contract formed allow you to withhold payment subject to an acceptance period in relation to defects, additionally, I doubt there are any documented terms for offset (part of full).
From the garages perspective, they have fixed it and now it is broken again. Until they (or someone else) looks at it, neither you or they know what the root cause is.
Was this engine oil seen, or was it gearbox oil?
Has the failure of an item caused a consequential failure of the engine?
Whilst you are saying that you will not pay until it is fixed, you're basing this on the failure being their responsibility with no proof (yet).
The garage will likely be saying - we're not even looking at it until they pay the bill.
So it's a bit of a stand off. I would say that morally, you may be in the right, but I do not believe you ae contractually, particularly from a B2B transaction angle.
Olivergt said:
Unreal said:
More investigation required. There's no evidence the first repair was faulty so the garage is on the hook for a lot of money for a repair which you appear to assume was faulty. An independent inspection is likely necessary to break the deadline but the first issue is that you owe them money.
Withholding payment may not be the correct thing to do, but I sympathise with the OP.As you say an independent inspection is required, this works to the benefit of both parties:
If the work was not faulty, then the garage can quite rightly demand that the OP settles the original bill.
If the work was faulty, then the OP is entitled to hold on to the payment until the van is fixed.
OP, I would be arranging an independent inspection, unfortunately you will have to pay for it, but it's the only logical way forward at this stage.
If you had paid, the present engine failure would be taken care of under warranty, simple.
Are you in the AA or RAC, they can provide an engineers report. If not there are a number of independent firms who would do the same for a fee.
I’m surprised the garage is dragging this along and becoming funny, baring in mind you are a regular business customer.
When an engine goes bang shortly after a major rebuild, I can’t see how the garage can get out of it.
Surely they should put their hands up, bite the bullet, and fit a recon engine free of charge.
They would then possibly be able to make a claim on their Motor Trader Insurance Policy. Most of these have “cock up” cover.
Reminds me of the time when I worked part time for G4S. Working public holiday rates we deivered one con from the central belt to Inverness jail. Dropped off at lunchtime.
After hitting Greggs part two of the day was to go to a local main dealer where the previous week a van had been recovered to after a break down. It had now been repaired and we were to drive it back to Uddingston. So arrived and found the service manager. "No problem", "it's ready", as soon as the bill is paid you can get the keys.
The repair was north of £5k. As it was a public holiday there was no G4S senior managers on duty to authorise a payment that big.
I put the service manger in tough with my depot manager and left them to it. The dealers were very good. Supplied us with coffee and biscuits as we sat watching the rugby for about 4 hours at public holiday rate until the bill was paid.
I'm presuming they had previous issues after releasing a vehicle before the bill was settled.
After hitting Greggs part two of the day was to go to a local main dealer where the previous week a van had been recovered to after a break down. It had now been repaired and we were to drive it back to Uddingston. So arrived and found the service manager. "No problem", "it's ready", as soon as the bill is paid you can get the keys.
The repair was north of £5k. As it was a public holiday there was no G4S senior managers on duty to authorise a payment that big.
I put the service manger in tough with my depot manager and left them to it. The dealers were very good. Supplied us with coffee and biscuits as we sat watching the rugby for about 4 hours at public holiday rate until the bill was paid.
I'm presuming they had previous issues after releasing a vehicle before the bill was settled.
Edited by irc on Thursday 1st May 17:14
Edited by irc on Thursday 1st May 17:16
Why wouldn't you pick up the phone?
If you truly are a customer who brings multiple vehicles, I'd call and say you think there must have been a mistake - as the tone of the email suggests they are unaware that the car's broken again in less than a week.
Usually though, no garage would let a repaired car go without you paying before being given the keys. Mindset wise, I think you should get over that hurdle. It's then a test of your relationship with them to get it back.
As has been asked already, if you run a business you presumably have some kind of legal cover under your fleet's insurance. Use it...
If you truly are a customer who brings multiple vehicles, I'd call and say you think there must have been a mistake - as the tone of the email suggests they are unaware that the car's broken again in less than a week.
Usually though, no garage would let a repaired car go without you paying before being given the keys. Mindset wise, I think you should get over that hurdle. It's then a test of your relationship with them to get it back.
As has been asked already, if you run a business you presumably have some kind of legal cover under your fleet's insurance. Use it...
I wonder how far their legal action well get after the van failed so shortly afterwards.
They'll have to proove the failure wasn't down to them.
And they're not sharing that info with you, so don't pay until they do.
Now they're saying they'll charge you storage?
I don't think a judge would see that as reasonable, as you're still awaiting the update they promised you.
I'll guess they'll take your payment, then wash their hands of the job.
No way I'd pay in your position, untill they've at least told you what they're going to do.
They'll have to proove the failure wasn't down to them.
And they're not sharing that info with you, so don't pay until they do.
Now they're saying they'll charge you storage?
I don't think a judge would see that as reasonable, as you're still awaiting the update they promised you.
I'll guess they'll take your payment, then wash their hands of the job.
No way I'd pay in your position, untill they've at least told you what they're going to do.
Its a quandry.
If you pay the invoice and leave the garage to 'mark their own homework' it would be a surprise to no one if they find the subsequent damage is completely unrelated to whatever has already been done so another massive repair/replacement and here's another invoice for £6k.
When i paid the existing bill it would hopefully be on the agreement that an independect engineer diagnoses ( for which i would expect to pay and argue the toss if he finds the garage at fault) the current issues, maybe present during stripping by the garage, but to be fair the garages (often make specialist) i've used in the past would have immediately got work sorting out the current issues.
Purely out of interest what sort of mileage would be covered in 11 months after the previous service?
Many of us give ludicrous recommended service intervals the ignoring they richly deserve and service at more sensible mileages.
For a working vehicle given the scarcity of skilled engine rebuilding mechanics these days it might be worth authorising the fitting of a new warranted engine (assuming the van is worth the money) when major work amounting to those sorts of figures is needed, i know that's not an option now but might be food for future thought.
If you pay the invoice and leave the garage to 'mark their own homework' it would be a surprise to no one if they find the subsequent damage is completely unrelated to whatever has already been done so another massive repair/replacement and here's another invoice for £6k.
When i paid the existing bill it would hopefully be on the agreement that an independect engineer diagnoses ( for which i would expect to pay and argue the toss if he finds the garage at fault) the current issues, maybe present during stripping by the garage, but to be fair the garages (often make specialist) i've used in the past would have immediately got work sorting out the current issues.
Purely out of interest what sort of mileage would be covered in 11 months after the previous service?
Many of us give ludicrous recommended service intervals the ignoring they richly deserve and service at more sensible mileages.
For a working vehicle given the scarcity of skilled engine rebuilding mechanics these days it might be worth authorising the fitting of a new warranted engine (assuming the van is worth the money) when major work amounting to those sorts of figures is needed, i know that's not an option now but might be food for future thought.
As others have said, an independent engineers report would seem to be the best way forward. I can see that there are concerns on both sides. Consequently OP, it might be worth giving the garage a call and telling them that, if you get an independent inspection and it finds that their repair was dodgy, you will expect them to pay for the new repair and the inspection, before you will pay the original invoice. However, if the independent inspection shows that their repair was not the cause of the new breakdown, you will pay the initial invoice immediately and also the inspection. I don’t envy your position OP. Hope you get it sorted soon.
Ledaig said:
Mandat said:
Does the Consumer Rights Act 2015 apply to business - business transactions?
Good question and no - which is why it's called the 'consumer' rights act.I'd proceed with caution here, you formed a contract with the garage for a repair to be conducted, they quoted a price for supply and fit, you agreed, they conducted the works, you accepted the repaired vehicle back.
The only part of consideration left is the outstanding invoice on your side.
I doubt the terms of condition for the contract formed allow you to withhold payment subject to an acceptance period in relation to defects, additionally, I doubt there are any documented terms for offset (part of full).
From the garages perspective, they have fixed it and now it is broken again. Until they (or someone else) looks at it, neither you or they know what the root cause is.
Was this engine oil seen, or was it gearbox oil?
Has the failure of an item caused a consequential failure of the engine?
Whilst you are saying that you will not pay until it is fixed, you're basing this on the failure being their responsibility with no proof (yet).
The garage will likely be saying - we're not even looking at it until they pay the bill.
So it's a bit of a stand off. I would say that morally, you may be in the right, but I do not believe you ae contractually, particularly from a B2B transaction angle.
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