RE: More on the mini-Cayenne
Tuesday 18th October 2005
To be shrunkMore information is leaking from Porsche about the possibility of building a small off-roader to compete with the BMW X3, following our story on 11 October (see link below).
More on the mini-Cayenne
Porsche leaks details on plans for small SUV
To be shrunk
According to Autocar, there's a full-sized design at the company's Weissach R&D centre which is being evaluated for production. Although currently a concept, if Porsche decides to build it, it will take the Stuttgart company's annual production to over 100,000 units a year -- heading for the big league. While that seems unlikely to happen before 2010, it's only five years out.
A few sketchy technical details have emerged too, said the magazine. The car could use the four-wheel drive platform that's under development by VW for the Audi Q5, much as the Cayenne shares its platform with the VW Touareg. The X3 competitor is likely to use a V8, possibly a development of Audi's 4.2-litre 335bhp engine found in the A8 quattro SE.
Discussion
idiots, idiots, idiots,
The X3 was a flop, so look heres a GREAT idea, lets build a competitor. Somebodies should be fired for this idea.
What about making a small compact luxury saloon to take on the upper end 3 series and C Class ranges?
Or a premium hatchback or even mini coupe in the 1 series class, what happened to intelligent thinking?
The X3 was a flop, so look heres a GREAT idea, lets build a competitor. Somebodies should be fired for this idea.
What about making a small compact luxury saloon to take on the upper end 3 series and C Class ranges?
Or a premium hatchback or even mini coupe in the 1 series class, what happened to intelligent thinking?
This is just sad to watch.
Porsche means motorsport, to the point where, back in the '70s enthusiasts of the marque thought it was going down the pan because it brought out some front-engined GT cars with water cooling to go with the rear-engined sports cars. TBH, I'd kill to get them to do that again because at least they were still sports cars.
I know Porsche is now the most profitable sports car 'brand', but to my mind it shouldn't be just another 'brand', but a marque, with a heritage and design principles.
You wouldn't get Lotus doing their own off-roader (they at least work on other people's cars rather than trying to pass a VW Toureg off as their own work). If Porsche are that desperate to get in on the SUV market, why don't they enter a partnership with VAG and offer some Porsche-engined Audis or something?
I'm sorry, but I blame the bankers. Stuttgart bean-counters have decided that seeing as though other bean-counters in London and New York will not only buy anything with a Porsche badge on it, but will also want an SUV, Porsche should be all things to all investment bankers, despite the fact that Ferdinand Porsche would spin in his grave if he knew they were doing anything other than sports cars. I mean, Bentleys and Land-Rovers sell well to people with large country piles, but does that mean Bentley bring out an off-roader? no, Land-Rover offer a compromise by way of the Range Rover. It shouldn't work the other way round.
Would Ferrari do that? No. Would Maserati do that? Or Lotus? Or TVR? Even Lamborghini is being forced into considering this sort of thing by Audi bean-counters rather than doing it itself.
Accountants - hands off heritage!
Porsche means motorsport, to the point where, back in the '70s enthusiasts of the marque thought it was going down the pan because it brought out some front-engined GT cars with water cooling to go with the rear-engined sports cars. TBH, I'd kill to get them to do that again because at least they were still sports cars.
I know Porsche is now the most profitable sports car 'brand', but to my mind it shouldn't be just another 'brand', but a marque, with a heritage and design principles.
You wouldn't get Lotus doing their own off-roader (they at least work on other people's cars rather than trying to pass a VW Toureg off as their own work). If Porsche are that desperate to get in on the SUV market, why don't they enter a partnership with VAG and offer some Porsche-engined Audis or something?
I'm sorry, but I blame the bankers. Stuttgart bean-counters have decided that seeing as though other bean-counters in London and New York will not only buy anything with a Porsche badge on it, but will also want an SUV, Porsche should be all things to all investment bankers, despite the fact that Ferdinand Porsche would spin in his grave if he knew they were doing anything other than sports cars. I mean, Bentleys and Land-Rovers sell well to people with large country piles, but does that mean Bentley bring out an off-roader? no, Land-Rover offer a compromise by way of the Range Rover. It shouldn't work the other way round.
Would Ferrari do that? No. Would Maserati do that? Or Lotus? Or TVR? Even Lamborghini is being forced into considering this sort of thing by Audi bean-counters rather than doing it itself.
Accountants - hands off heritage!
r988 said:
idiots, idiots, idiots,
The X3 was a flop, so look heres a GREAT idea, lets build a competitor. Somebodies should be fired for this idea.
What about making a small compact luxury saloon to take on the upper end 3 series and C Class ranges?
Or a premium hatchback or even mini coupe in the 1 series class, what happened to intelligent thinking?
Yup – I agree with all that. I would love to read Porsche’s 5 year business plans. Maybe diluting the brand and becoming mundane is part of the sell ?
Twincam16 said:
... Even Lamborghini is being forced into considering this sort of thing by Audi bean-counters rather than doing it itself.
Accountants - hands off heritage!
Lambo already did do 4x4 with the huge LM002 solely for the oil rich Saudis back in the 80's.
Both Porsche & Mercedes are now 'to a price' rather than pricing what it costs.
>> Edited by phil-c on Tuesday 18th October 11:39
The Cayenne was difficult for people to come to terms with in the first place. But it hasn't been so bad because it's still relatively rare. (although I'm using the word relatively with economy here)
But another, smaller one? That's a step too far. Brand dilution have much greater consequences for the future.
But another, smaller one? That's a step too far. Brand dilution have much greater consequences for the future.
_VTEC_ said:
The Cayenne was difficult for people to come to terms with in the first place. But it hasn't been so bad because it's still relatively rare. (although I'm using the word relatively with economy here)
Huh? Where I live they're ten-a-penny, and I don't exactly live in a mega-posh area. There are as many Cayennes as there are Range Rovers and X5s.
If they bring out an X3 rival, you won't be able to move for them.
It's unfortunate - there's no discernment in choosing a Porsche these days. Ask people what they'd buy if they were rich and they'd say Porsche even if they didn't know which end the engine was in, and it's all down to mass-market thinking.
Think about it - every time you see someone in a Porsche 911, that person could just as easily have bought a Ferrari F430 or a Lamborghini Gallardo or an Aston Martin AMV8 Vantage, but they go for the Porsche because the bean-counters have etched it on their minds.
Porsche is the only supercar-maker to my mind who advertises, too. They sponsor the gym I go to with banner ads for the Boxster everywhere (including details of the finance plan FFS!), and the name and address of the local dealership is etched into the windows.
paulie-mafia said:
I'm just waiting for the "Porsche to build Golf-based hatchback" headline!
lol
that could make some sense - a hardcore paris-dakar/rally version with 400bhp through rear wheels or 4wd? they'd have to do something with the front - if it sloped down like a 911, it'd look like a mini mpv
shadowninja said:
I'm just waiting for the "Porsche to build Golf-based hatchback" headline!
lol
that could make some sense - a hardcore paris-dakar/rally version with 400bhp through rear wheels or 4wd? they'd have to do something with the front - if it sloped down like a 911, it'd look like a mini mpv
Similarly, I'd like to see a hot version of the new Fiat Punto - they styled it deliberately so the front end looked like a Maserati Coupe. Imagine a kind of baby GranSport with 4WD and a big turbocharger - how cool would that be?
IMO Porsche - now they have a controlling stake in VW - need to rationalise their range and make Porsche exclusive again:
Separate the 911 turbo from the 911 completely, making the Turbos all 4WD, restyled with 959 cues. In fact, call it the 959.
The 911 could then be pensioned off in favour of the new Boxster/Cayenne. Porsche have been wanting to get rid of the hoi polloi 911 for ages, and I think they're onto something with the Boxster/Cayman.
Dump the Cayenne and turn it into a wider Audi range with Porsche engine options, but use the technology on a 'new' 928 with 4WD and a choice of 6 or 8-cylinder engines.
This is desperately sad to see - yet more massive brand and heritage dilution. Even before the Cayenne, Porsche was the most profitable car manufacturer in the World. Do they *have* to grow this quickly...?
Still, if it keeps the proper Porsches rolling off the line then so be it.
I wish they had bought into VW earlier, forgot about the Cayenne, used the Touargeg as the sole SUV and used cash from sales of the Touareg to prop up Porsche is needed.
This new mini SUV is criminal. What next...? MPV...?
Still, if it keeps the proper Porsches rolling off the line then so be it.
I wish they had bought into VW earlier, forgot about the Cayenne, used the Touargeg as the sole SUV and used cash from sales of the Touareg to prop up Porsche is needed.
This new mini SUV is criminal. What next...? MPV...?
Twincam16 said:
I mean, Bentleys and Land-Rovers sell well to people with large country piles, but does that mean Bentley bring out an off-roader? no
Autoweek said:
Powered by a 6.0-liter 450-hp W12, the proposed SUV codenamed BY616 is the most luxurious among a number of proposals by parent company VW to expand the Bentley marque against a backdrop of surging sales, renewed brand awareness and a growing customer base.
God forbid!
Looking forward to hearing Porsche's naming of this one, especially after Sniff Petrol's "Coxster" exclusive
Strange reactions. This is precisely what Porsche should have done in the first place when considering building an SUV, since making a Porsche that weighs 2.5 tonnes was an oxymoron. A lighter, purely 4 seater SUV aimed at those with a sporting/active lifestyle seems more true to Porsche's brand values than a luxury SUV. This way they should be able to build it nearer the 1700kg mark, giving it half decent fuel economy and even better handling.
The only reason I can see why Porsche built the Cayenne was to platform share with VW and avoid the heavy up-front tooling costs. Now that they've got the money and the know-how they 'should' build a much smaller and more sporting SUV and then slowly phase out the Cayenne.
And as far as degrading the heritage of Porsche, that's ironic, since Porsche started out building tractors and designing the VW Beetle. But Porsche has always been known for engineering excellence and design, so if they can build a mini-SUV that meets these values then good luck to them.
The only reason I can see why Porsche built the Cayenne was to platform share with VW and avoid the heavy up-front tooling costs. Now that they've got the money and the know-how they 'should' build a much smaller and more sporting SUV and then slowly phase out the Cayenne.
And as far as degrading the heritage of Porsche, that's ironic, since Porsche started out building tractors and designing the VW Beetle. But Porsche has always been known for engineering excellence and design, so if they can build a mini-SUV that meets these values then good luck to them.
DoctorD,
The Porsche company was an engineering consultancy first, in the 30's they worked on various racers as well as what became the Beetle. The first post war product was a sports car built in Austria. The tractors came later as in those days there was more demand for tractors than sports cars.
SS7
The Porsche company was an engineering consultancy first, in the 30's they worked on various racers as well as what became the Beetle. The first post war product was a sports car built in Austria. The tractors came later as in those days there was more demand for tractors than sports cars.
SS7
Twincam16 said:
Porsche means motorsport...
Still doing that, of course. You've seen the results from Laguna ALMS at the weekend and read the Penske-Porsche release, I hope?
Twincam16 said:
I'm sorry, but I blame the bankers. Stuttgart bean-counters have decided that seeing as though other bean-counters in London and New York will not only buy anything with a Porsche badge on it, but will also want an SUV, Porsche should be all things to all investment bankers, despite the fact that Ferdinand Porsche would spin in his grave if he knew they were doing anything other than sports cars. I mean, Bentleys and Land-Rovers sell well to people with large country piles, but does that mean Bentley bring out an off-roader? no, Land-Rover offer a compromise by way of the Range Rover. It shouldn't work the other way round.
Would Ferrari do that? No. Would Maserati do that? Or Lotus? Or TVR? Even Lamborghini is being forced into considering this sort of thing by Audi bean-counters rather than doing it itself.
Ferdinand Porsche designed the King Tiger tank (and went to prison for his troubles) in WW11, so I don't think he'd be that bothered. Porsche has also designed the new range of Fendt tractors.
Piech's reaction would be most interesting to me, but then again quattro only hit production because he pushed so hard for it, so I imagine he's mildly amused by this project.
As for all those companies you mention, well Ferrari, Maserati and Lotus lost their independence long ago, while TVR was recently rescued from very deep detritis by its new owner. Lambo, as you know, made tractors and a huge 4x4 in the '70s/'80s. Bentley is also looking at a 4x4.
It's funny, everyone slated the Cayenne and proclaimed that it would fail, yet it has done quite the opposite. Porsche wouldn't be thinking about this if there wasn't a very strong business case. If things like this are needed to help finance things like the racing programme and Carrera GT, then I have no problem with that.
It is not devaluing the brand in my eyes, it is merely expanding the areas of Porsche expertise.
DoctorD said:
Strange reactions. This is precisely what Porsche should have done in the first place when considering building an SUV, since making a Porsche that weighs 2.5 tonnes was an oxymoron. A lighter, purely 4 seater SUV aimed at those with a sporting/active lifestyle seems more true to Porsche's brand values than a luxury SUV. This way they should be able to build it nearer the 1700kg mark, giving it half decent fuel economy and even better handling.
Actually, on second thoughts, if they dumped the Cayenne in favour of something about Rav-4 size, styled almost like an old Paris-Dakar 911 Allrad, with a punchy engine from the Boxster and variable ride height so that it could both go off road on knobbly tyres and skip accross terrain like a military Land-Rover, but also hunker right down and do 0-60 in five seconds and go round corners like a proper sports car, I'd be interested.
They have the chance to get this right. Get it wrong and they'll be rivalling the X3 for the sake of it. Porsche's biggest image problem IMO is the Cayenne - too heavy, too ugly and rather unweildy, even if it is fast and powerful. What's the point of new Porsche-developed V8s and V6s if you put them inside a truck?
Porsche making their brand more mass-available is no wrong thing its own right, but surely too much category pouncing will dilute the meaning of Porsche?
For mini-things they should do it under a diffusion brand. Or upstream they should do an Uber Porsche brand.
Leave the current Porsche name alone!!
For mini-things they should do it under a diffusion brand. Or upstream they should do an Uber Porsche brand.
Leave the current Porsche name alone!!
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