Please help me - very poor, trying to get into track days!
Discussion
Hello all, I am very poor at the moment and much as I'm hoping for that illusive payrise I am looking for a way to get into /onto trackdays for the smallest amount of money. I don't currently own a car that I can take on a track, is it cheaper to hire (the prices at www.bookatrack.com seem very good) or buy a very old car (mini, pug 205 etc) and use that? Many thanks.
It really depends on how many trackdays per year you can afford, and whether you'd use the track car as your daily driver as well.
If its only a few per year, then hiring a BaT Cat will probably work out just as cheap as buying a knackered hot hatch and track prepping it. Assuming you'd drive it to the circuit but maybe not want it as your daily driver, by the time you've taken into account the upfront costs of the track prep (cage, 2nd set of wheels/tyres, decent seat, harness, suspension etc), plus the ongoing costs of tyres, brakes, track fuel, servicing, road insurance, car tax etc, its going to work out cheaper to bung BaT the readies and use a Caterham, which is also highly likely to be a lot quicker / better handling than anything you could afford to buy / run.
If you also use it as your daily driver then it does become cheaper I guess, but it then becomes a risk thrashing your daily transport around a track if you need it Monday morning to get to work, and if you want it properly track prepped it will likely be a pig to drive on the road!
Other than the upfront cost and finding somewhere to store it, the cheapest ongoing method of doing trackdays is probably to buy a kit car, something like a Locost maybe for £3-4k. They're light so don't eat tyres / brakes / fuel as much as the average tintop, you can insure them for peanuts and they don't generally need much track specific preparation, so the overall running costs are significantly lower. The only other thing that needs consideration then is how to get the car to/from the circuit, personally I tow mine as a BEC with no windscreen isnt the best car to drive 200 miles each way in to a trackday, but if you can put up with that and/or don't mind sticking to local trackdays then it could be done very cheaply that way, and the capital invested in the car itself is unlikely to depreciate significantly if you buy the right car.
Chris
If its only a few per year, then hiring a BaT Cat will probably work out just as cheap as buying a knackered hot hatch and track prepping it. Assuming you'd drive it to the circuit but maybe not want it as your daily driver, by the time you've taken into account the upfront costs of the track prep (cage, 2nd set of wheels/tyres, decent seat, harness, suspension etc), plus the ongoing costs of tyres, brakes, track fuel, servicing, road insurance, car tax etc, its going to work out cheaper to bung BaT the readies and use a Caterham, which is also highly likely to be a lot quicker / better handling than anything you could afford to buy / run.
If you also use it as your daily driver then it does become cheaper I guess, but it then becomes a risk thrashing your daily transport around a track if you need it Monday morning to get to work, and if you want it properly track prepped it will likely be a pig to drive on the road!
Other than the upfront cost and finding somewhere to store it, the cheapest ongoing method of doing trackdays is probably to buy a kit car, something like a Locost maybe for £3-4k. They're light so don't eat tyres / brakes / fuel as much as the average tintop, you can insure them for peanuts and they don't generally need much track specific preparation, so the overall running costs are significantly lower. The only other thing that needs consideration then is how to get the car to/from the circuit, personally I tow mine as a BEC with no windscreen isnt the best car to drive 200 miles each way in to a trackday, but if you can put up with that and/or don't mind sticking to local trackdays then it could be done very cheaply that way, and the capital invested in the car itself is unlikely to depreciate significantly if you buy the right car.
Chris
Edited by Locoblade on Monday 2nd October 18:41
I got started with a Pug 205 GTi bought for £600 from ebay. I did my first track day with it unmodified, and gradially added a few cheap bits (K&N filter, decent exhaust, FSE boost valve, etc). I drove it to and from track days in relative comfort, and used it to drive to and from work. It never gave me any problems and was great fun (though don't even think of lifting round a bend in one of these). I eventually upgraded to a Vx powered Westfield. At £5,000 it's unbeatable thrills and power. I still drive to and from track days throughout the year even though it now has an aeroscreen. Though if I go back to Cadwell I may hire a trailer as it's a 5 hour trip for me. This has been more of a money pit, as I constantly want to add bits, but I wouldn't change it.
If you end up with a seven type car on carbs don't underestimate the fuel costs for a track day. On everyday driving it'll do about 20 mph, and about half that on a track. At Brands last month I spent £80 on petrol, including a two hour round trip to get there.
If you end up with a seven type car on carbs don't underestimate the fuel costs for a track day. On everyday driving it'll do about 20 mph, and about half that on a track. At Brands last month I spent £80 on petrol, including a two hour round trip to get there.
If buying, no matter what car you choose its a lot lot lot lot lot cheaper to buy something already properly prepped & built for the job than building it yourself, & some cheap near standard old cheap hack may last a single track day or two, but give it a full season & not many can last (there are exceptions tho)
Hiring may suit you, sure you can hire someting a lot nicer than a tight budget would purchace, but the only thing to consider is 4 or 5 track days in something like the BaT caterham, which may indeed be a fab time, but could have bought a nicely prepped little cheaper end track car, that breakages aside (& if you've got the right prepped car & yes rag it on track but also treat it to TLC & good maintenance should be few & far between) will still be worth the same on resale.
For even a cheap tintop I'd budget easy £500 a yr on track consumabels tho, (servicing, wheel bearings, top mounts, ball joints etc etc) they get a hell of a pasting & I consider them a yearly consumable, also brakes etc, also the more power & the more grip then the more consumables, low power & low grip stuff will last longer.
Hiring may suit you, sure you can hire someting a lot nicer than a tight budget would purchace, but the only thing to consider is 4 or 5 track days in something like the BaT caterham, which may indeed be a fab time, but could have bought a nicely prepped little cheaper end track car, that breakages aside (& if you've got the right prepped car & yes rag it on track but also treat it to TLC & good maintenance should be few & far between) will still be worth the same on resale.
For even a cheap tintop I'd budget easy £500 a yr on track consumabels tho, (servicing, wheel bearings, top mounts, ball joints etc etc) they get a hell of a pasting & I consider them a yearly consumable, also brakes etc, also the more power & the more grip then the more consumables, low power & low grip stuff will last longer.
I set out to do the same and got hooked. I decided RWD was the only sensible option (but lets not start that debate again!) and was looking at old 200sx s and 3 series BMWs. Ended up with a 318is which has the much more potent 16v engine (c 130bhp) in a car that probably weighs less that a new fiat panda. I spent a few hundred on getting it right, and have used it for 3 track days no problem- drive it there and drive it back in comfort.
I could have bought something very cheap and cheerful and just gone straight out in it, but wanted to put safety first. Do you really want to discover that you're brakes are shot whilst approaching paddock at 90mph? - no, me neither
Airfields tend to be the cheapest way to go, but aren't queit the same as the proper circuits. For me I'd rather pay the extra £50 for the real deal
So, I reckon you need £700-£1000 for a decent car (ie one that you're confident in), perhaps another £50 for upgraded brake pads, you can hire helmets at every event. One thing to bear in mind- you WILL use lots of petrol , drink loads of coke/coffee and eat a lot of cr@p on these days so the £100/£150 fee is just the start.
I'm now at the point where I think I'm likewise going to have to upgrade to an old caterham or e30 M3, but as a starter I reckon you can't beat the chaep & chearful ownership route- enjoy.
I could have bought something very cheap and cheerful and just gone straight out in it, but wanted to put safety first. Do you really want to discover that you're brakes are shot whilst approaching paddock at 90mph? - no, me neither
Airfields tend to be the cheapest way to go, but aren't queit the same as the proper circuits. For me I'd rather pay the extra £50 for the real deal
So, I reckon you need £700-£1000 for a decent car (ie one that you're confident in), perhaps another £50 for upgraded brake pads, you can hire helmets at every event. One thing to bear in mind- you WILL use lots of petrol , drink loads of coke/coffee and eat a lot of cr@p on these days so the £100/£150 fee is just the start.
I'm now at the point where I think I'm likewise going to have to upgrade to an old caterham or e30 M3, but as a starter I reckon you can't beat the chaep & chearful ownership route- enjoy.
exboxster said:
One thing to bear in mind- you WILL use lots of petrol , drink loads of coke/coffee and eat a lot of cr@p on these days so the £100/£150 fee is just the start.
Yep. I reckon on spending about £100 on fuel for the day - a complete tankful (and maybe more) will go on track and then there's getting there and back.
Then there's those all important motorsport vitamins to help you go faster - and they're only contained in trackside food like burger and chips with extra bacon, cheese and, preferably, a fried egg.
..don't forget you'll burn more calories than usual and will probably feel hungry twice during the day. Then there's the wear rate on discs, pads and tyres. Possibly some oil (mine doesn't burn any). After two years of track days my complete braking system (consumables only!) needed replacing.
Makes hiring one of Jonny's cars look like bloody good value actually!
Edited by Don on Tuesday 3rd October 09:34
Cheers for the responses, I don't think I can afford a lot of trackdays per year and I live in shared accomodation without a garage so maybe hiring for the first few times might be better. Plus, I noticed on BookaTrack that you can share a rental with a mate for free, so that would be an open pit day on a track with a good car for just under £250 which all of a sudden doesn't seem so bad.
I do like the idea of a little 205, or maybe an mx5 or something though. Here's a question for you knowledgeable guys, brakes obviously need replacing regularly on a track used car, if you upgrade the brakes do they need replacing less often, or do they offer more performance but degrade just as quickly? How does this question apply for other parts/consumables (tyres, oil, suspension etc)?
I do like the idea of a little 205, or maybe an mx5 or something though. Here's a question for you knowledgeable guys, brakes obviously need replacing regularly on a track used car, if you upgrade the brakes do they need replacing less often, or do they offer more performance but degrade just as quickly? How does this question apply for other parts/consumables (tyres, oil, suspension etc)?
Depends what your brake upgrade is...
If you fit broader diameter discs and suitable calipers you are increasing the "leverage" of the braking system. No reason why it would wear out faster I can see.
If you change your brake fluid to the best specification to reduce brake fade - this should not increase brake wear.
If you change your disks to drilled/grooved to promote superior cooling and wet braking performance this will tend to make the disc weaker and more prone to cracking and may cause it to wear out sooner. There again - the reduction in brake fade may make it worth it.
If you fit uprated pads these may be more abrasive and stop the car better - but at the same time will cause more brake disk wear.
To make it all more complicated some pad/disk combinations are designed to work at optimal performance when very, very hot. This may mean that performance is compromised when they are cold: road use pads are intended to provide excellent braking performance from cold whereas track use pads may not be.
When it comes to braking systems I am a complete amateur. Read Art Markus' Track Day Guide for lots more detail. In any event: upgrade braking systems only with the advice of competent pro technician.
If you fit broader diameter discs and suitable calipers you are increasing the "leverage" of the braking system. No reason why it would wear out faster I can see.
If you change your brake fluid to the best specification to reduce brake fade - this should not increase brake wear.
If you change your disks to drilled/grooved to promote superior cooling and wet braking performance this will tend to make the disc weaker and more prone to cracking and may cause it to wear out sooner. There again - the reduction in brake fade may make it worth it.
If you fit uprated pads these may be more abrasive and stop the car better - but at the same time will cause more brake disk wear.
To make it all more complicated some pad/disk combinations are designed to work at optimal performance when very, very hot. This may mean that performance is compromised when they are cold: road use pads are intended to provide excellent braking performance from cold whereas track use pads may not be.
When it comes to braking systems I am a complete amateur. Read Art Markus' Track Day Guide for lots more detail. In any event: upgrade braking systems only with the advice of competent pro technician.
exboxster said:
I'm now at the point where I think I'm likewise going to have to upgrade to an old caterham or e30 M3,
When you decide to sell the 318 iS can you stick it up on the classifieds here first??? I will be in the market for one of these in about 2 months. Also, would be interested to hear your comments on the car generally. Thanks.
(Sorry about the hijack BTW)
Chet_Marooney said:
if you upgrade the brakes do they need replacing less often, or do they offer more performance but degrade just as quickly? How does this question apply for other parts/consumables (tyres, oil, suspension etc)?
Im guessing from your budget you are really just looking at pads & perhaps dics change, not a full Brembo or AP etc monster set up.
Standard pads on most road cars (*) that may last 30k on road can be dead within a single trackday session, let alone a full day, so an uprate is pretty much compulsory, what you go to is entirely up to you & what your compramise is to be price/cold braking/noise on road/longevity/disc wear.
Depending what your choice you can easily get as high as a good seasons trackdays- out of a set of pads & discs, or spend less & change more often, personally ive used all sorts but use a fairly cheap fast road compound now & get 1 - 2 days sometimes can 3 if its wet etc, but a lot lot lot cheaper than the top set, discs I change yearly.
Pads are odd tho, what pad suits one person can be a useless nightmere for others & we all have difrent braking styles.
Use braided lines & decnet brake fluid, proper stuff can see you a season, does need changing yearly at max tho, or use cheaper stuff & change more regually.
Oil, I change every 1 or more often now 2 track days, pos overkill but oil & filters are cheap, but properly built engines are not, def change much more regually than a road car & before it goes black anyway. Tyres depends on car & driving style, road rubber can shag a set in a day, other end of scale single set of old ex race rubber can see you a full season.
Suspension, well im assuming fully poly bushed & decent uprated shocks springs etc already done, as a wallowy impresise car on track is not much fun, & that should see you ok for a good few yrs if you dont buy crap in the 1st place, or untill you decide to go harder & more uprated, which you 100% will!
(*) there are a few exceptions- most Porsches for example are fine with normal OE pads on track
Edited by iguana on Tuesday 3rd October 21:19
Don said:
Then there's those all important motorsport vitamins to help you go faster - and they're only contained in trackside food like burger and chips with extra bacon, cheese and, preferably, a fried egg.
..don't forget you'll burn more calories than usual and will probably feel hungry twice during the day. weird... I always feel totally unhungry on track days. Cant eat more than a snickers!
I drink loads of water tho, as I tend to sweat plenty and dehydration can affect your performance markedly...
Easy - Don't worry about getting a car 'track ready' to start with!
A cheap 205 or small hatch that you feel happy with will be fine in standard fettle. You need to make sure the brakes are up to it, but running a track ready car is expensive and unless you're very good, it won't do much for you, so don't worry about it till you are.
Also running a standard trim car will generally allow you to run on tracks with strict noise level restrictions which a lot of track prep'ed cars can't run on.
I'd say the best thing to do is get a car you can afford to run, and take it to and from the track when you can. Once you've started you'll know a lot more about where you want to go with it.
A cheap 205 or small hatch that you feel happy with will be fine in standard fettle. You need to make sure the brakes are up to it, but running a track ready car is expensive and unless you're very good, it won't do much for you, so don't worry about it till you are.
Also running a standard trim car will generally allow you to run on tracks with strict noise level restrictions which a lot of track prep'ed cars can't run on.
I'd say the best thing to do is get a car you can afford to run, and take it to and from the track when you can. Once you've started you'll know a lot more about where you want to go with it.
Just a thought...
How's about trying to find an old RWD escort. Should be cheap and useable on a daily basis. A classic insurance policy should help with your insurance which I assume is important with you being a young'un. They are kind of retro cool which I assume is important with you being a young'un but most importantly they handle, are reasonably light and thus easy on runnign gear, parts are dirt cheap and they have a very well understood upgrade path that is very well catered for by aftermarket suppliers at very good prices. When it finally rusts to death, build a locost out of it and sell any left over bits. If you really want to save some money scan e-bay for a broken one that you and a couple of mates can fix in a weekend. Buy two and make one good one, flog the rest etc.
How's about trying to find an old RWD escort. Should be cheap and useable on a daily basis. A classic insurance policy should help with your insurance which I assume is important with you being a young'un. They are kind of retro cool which I assume is important with you being a young'un
but most importantly they handle, are reasonably light and thus easy on runnign gear, parts are dirt cheap and they have a very well understood upgrade path that is very well catered for by aftermarket suppliers at very good prices. When it finally rusts to death, build a locost out of it and sell any left over bits. If you really want to save some money scan e-bay for a broken one that you and a couple of mates can fix in a weekend. Buy two and make one good one, flog the rest etc."Easy - Don't worry about getting a car 'track ready' to start with! "
I think thats spot on advice. If you start with something road worthy you can drive there and back and not need to tick the "modified" box on the insurance etc. Also I think that because you're in a road car you feel slightly more comforatble- ie it's an environment you're comforatble in and are unlikely to find yourself over streching your ablilties. Added to the fact that it'll be easier and cheaper to find a road car, and easier to sell on. I would however second the advise to have the brakes checked over and refreshed before hand. As soon as I got mine I booked it in for a full service and had them put pagid fast-road pads on. They really are amazing in that they simply do not fade and allow much later braking that you'd think possible. Also it was reassuring to know that the car was a good 'un, having been looked over by a good mechanic.
I think thats spot on advice. If you start with something road worthy you can drive there and back and not need to tick the "modified" box on the insurance etc. Also I think that because you're in a road car you feel slightly more comforatble- ie it's an environment you're comforatble in and are unlikely to find yourself over streching your ablilties. Added to the fact that it'll be easier and cheaper to find a road car, and easier to sell on. I would however second the advise to have the brakes checked over and refreshed before hand. As soon as I got mine I booked it in for a full service and had them put pagid fast-road pads on. They really are amazing in that they simply do not fade and allow much later braking that you'd think possible. Also it was reassuring to know that the car was a good 'un, having been looked over by a good mechanic.
If you are thinking of hiring, then TrackClub are good for single hires and they do a good deal on yearly membership. They also do the odd 'open day' where, for about 300 quid you get to test out a big selection of their cars and have a lot of track time. They usually use an airfield to keep the costs down, but it means you can meet them, get a feel for track days, and see if you like hiring a car... I know that when I drive somebody elses car, I never push as hard incase I bend it
Their days on in the PH calender and Stephen also posts on PH (as sdd or similar I think)
I would say that the biggest upgrade you get your money back on is driver training though. It's never as cheap as a new set of discs and pads and tyres, but the amount you get out of the training is well worth it and will increase your times (not that we time ourselves of course) and your enjoyment as you realise you boundries and learn to push them. PH do them with Rob (in general gassing I think at the mo) and I'd always recommend Don Palmer.
ETA - found the track club post, it's out of date but gives you more contact details...
http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.
Their days on in the PH calender and Stephen also posts on PH (as sdd or similar I think)
I would say that the biggest upgrade you get your money back on is driver training though. It's never as cheap as a new set of discs and pads and tyres, but the amount you get out of the training is well worth it and will increase your times (not that we time ourselves of course
) and your enjoyment as you realise you boundries and learn to push them. PH do them with Rob (in general gassing I think at the mo) and I'd always recommend Don Palmer. ETA - found the track club post, it's out of date but gives you more contact details...
http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.
Edited by MTv Dave on Thursday 5th October 21:39
GarrettMacD said:
exboxster said:
I'm now at the point where I think I'm likewise going to have to upgrade to an old caterham or e30 M3,
When you decide to sell the 318 iS can you stick it up on the classifieds here first??? I will be in the market for one of these in about 2 months. Also, would be interested to hear your comments on the car generally. Thanks.
(Sorry about the hijack BTW)
Bit of blatant plug (Ted, please don't bin me) but here's the ad.
www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/107682.htm
I have to say that I have really enjoyed it. The great thing is that you can buy a trackday toy for the price of a set of performance tyres. I think that they make an excellent starting point and have enabled me to try the track-day scene without shelling out too much cash. They realy are great fun and can genuinely embarras more powerful cars (it's all in the weight you see)
Have a look at the following- £99 for a full day at Brands- Novices only.
www.motorsportvision.co.uk/trackdays/event-details.asp?ProductID=2290
My plans to get into an old M3 or Caterham are going to have to wait until next year though, as I'm giong to be a dad!- YAY- That said, if the car doesn't sell I may have to book that date at Brands myself...
[quote=MTv Dave]If you are thinking of hiring, then TrackClub are good for single hires and they do a good deal on yearly membership. They also do the odd 'open day' where, for about 300 quid you get to test out a big selection of their cars and have a lot of track time.
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=314782&f=18&h=0
Why not see if someone wants to share a track-club membership or day hire, that'll make it about as cheap as you can.
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=314782&f=18&h=0
Why not see if someone wants to share a track-club membership or day hire, that'll make it about as cheap as you can.
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