Is it all worth it...?
Discussion
Feeling fairly disillusioned at the moment. If all the companies that promise work actually meant what they said, I'd have a significant business. How are you ever supposed to plan for growth when companies continually string you along? Why can't they just say no if they mean no, yes if they mean yes, and come back in a few months if they mean maybe? Securing business right now seems to be more of a minefield than wooing women ever was. Is the rest of the world like this or is it just reserved for public relations/my business in particular? Maybe it's something I'm doing wrong?
Of the clients I have, if they all paid their bills in the time they commit to paying their bills, I wouldn't have any cashflow problems. The VAT office wants money I haven't received yet, the bank won't extend the overdraft, even though it's pathetically small, the outstanding invoices more than cover it and the company has been significantly in the black for most of the last six years. People to whom I owe money want it NOW, no ifs, no buts, no discussion. Have a fine if you are a few days late. People who owe me money dive more than premiership footballers on ice.
The problem is that I'm good at doing what I do. I'm not good at selling or being a credit controller, and I can't afford to hire a salesman or a financial director. Where can I find high quality customers who value a good service and can be relied on to pay their bills in time?!!
Of the clients I have, if they all paid their bills in the time they commit to paying their bills, I wouldn't have any cashflow problems. The VAT office wants money I haven't received yet, the bank won't extend the overdraft, even though it's pathetically small, the outstanding invoices more than cover it and the company has been significantly in the black for most of the last six years. People to whom I owe money want it NOW, no ifs, no buts, no discussion. Have a fine if you are a few days late. People who owe me money dive more than premiership footballers on ice.
The problem is that I'm good at doing what I do. I'm not good at selling or being a credit controller, and I can't afford to hire a salesman or a financial director. Where can I find high quality customers who value a good service and can be relied on to pay their bills in time?!!
On the VAT front, if slow payers are a problem, have you condsidered Cash Accounting? Even though I hate the complications it causes for finalisng and reconciling annual accounts, it is a worthwhile choice for certain businesses.
And, by the way, the turnover threshold for Cash Accounting is set to double to £1.2 million in next week's budget.
And, by the way, the turnover threshold for Cash Accounting is set to double to £1.2 million in next week's budget.
Eric Mc said:
On the VAT front, if slow payers are a problem, have you condsidered Cash Accounting? Even though I hate the complications it causes for finalisng and reconciling annual accounts, it is a worthwhile choice for certain businesses.
And, by the way, the turnover threshold for Cash Accounting is set to double to £1.2 million in next week's budget.
And, by the way, the turnover threshold for Cash Accounting is set to double to £1.2 million in next week's budget.
I agree, I use this. I sometimes get an invoice worth up to 25% of annual turnover that gets delayed, so I don't pay the VAT until I get it paid. Means I sit on the VAT for the rest of the quarter too.
I seem to recall Mon Ami Mate, that you were considering a career in politics (unless it was someone else). If you ever did, it'd be great if you took these real life experiences into the political arena and made a difference to normal people in business. I get sick to death of The Revenue, Health & Safety, absurd employers legislation, etc...
srebbe64 said:
I seem to recall Mon Ami Mate, that you were considering a career in politics (unless it was someone else). If you ever did, it'd be great if you took these real life experiences into the political arena and made a difference to normal people in business. I get sick to death of The Revenue, Health & Safety, absurd employers legislation, etc...
My political career died with David Cameron. I didn't make the shortlist for candidacy on account of being too white/male/heterosexual. Back to business then...
Edited by Mon Ami Mate on Tuesday 13th March 16:13
Mon Ami Mate said:
srebbe64 said:
I seem to recall Mon Ami Mate, that you were considering a career in politics (unless it was someone else). If you ever did, it'd be great if you took these real life experiences into the political arena and made a difference to normal people in business. I get sick to death of The Revenue, Health & Safety, absurd employers legislation, etc...
My political career died with David Cameron. I didn't make the shortlist for candidacy on account of being too white/male/heterosexual. Back to business then...
Edited by Mon Ami Mate on Tuesday 13th March 16:13
That's a real shame. The country could do with a few MPs who are regular blokes having experienced the real world.
I take a hard line, pay on time or get sued.
If we have done the work, you pay us. If you dont you get sued.
If you try to pay less than we have agreed, you get sued.
can you see a trend here?
Works for me. But most of our clients dont mess us around. We dont 'sell' a product but provide a service.
Sure some clients may decide to instruct us, some do some dont. Some a year or so later. Thats part of it and not anything I can do apart from use my not inconsiderable charm to get them to come to us. Once they have signed the dotted line then we roll with the contract and do what we say we will do and expect them to do likewise or else we sue them - have I said that before?
Does help having been in the legal ide of things when you know who is bluffing or when you can push things or when your onto a good hiding.
If we have done the work, you pay us. If you dont you get sued.
If you try to pay less than we have agreed, you get sued.
can you see a trend here?
Works for me. But most of our clients dont mess us around. We dont 'sell' a product but provide a service.
Sure some clients may decide to instruct us, some do some dont. Some a year or so later. Thats part of it and not anything I can do apart from use my not inconsiderable charm to get them to come to us. Once they have signed the dotted line then we roll with the contract and do what we say we will do and expect them to do likewise or else we sue them - have I said that before?
Does help having been in the legal ide of things when you know who is bluffing or when you can push things or when your onto a good hiding.
superlightr said:
I take a hard line, pay on time or get sued.
If we have done the work, you pay us. If you dont you get sued.
If you try to pay less than we have agreed, you get sued.
can you see a trend here?
Works for me. But most of our clients dont mess us around. We dont 'sell' a product but provide a service.
Sure some clients may decide to instruct us, some do some dont. Some a year or so later. Thats part of it and not anything I can do apart from use my not inconsiderable charm to get them to come to us. Once they have signed the dotted line then we roll with the contract and do what we say we will do and expect them to do likewise or else we sue them - have I said that before?
Does help having been in the legal ide of things when you know who is bluffing or when you can push things or when your onto a good hiding.
If we have done the work, you pay us. If you dont you get sued.
If you try to pay less than we have agreed, you get sued.
can you see a trend here?
Works for me. But most of our clients dont mess us around. We dont 'sell' a product but provide a service.
Sure some clients may decide to instruct us, some do some dont. Some a year or so later. Thats part of it and not anything I can do apart from use my not inconsiderable charm to get them to come to us. Once they have signed the dotted line then we roll with the contract and do what we say we will do and expect them to do likewise or else we sue them - have I said that before?
Does help having been in the legal ide of things when you know who is bluffing or when you can push things or when your onto a good hiding.
I'm a service provider too. My two worst debts are with companies that used to pay monthly retainers within 30 days. Both then experienced sticky patches, stopped the retainer and use me for odd bits of project work as and when. I've always had good relationships with them, until now. THere's no doubt in my mind that I'm not being paid because they don't have the money. They both dangle the carrot of improving circumstances and a return to the monthly retainer, which I'm sure you'll understand is something I very much look forward to. I don't want to chuck the baby out with the bath water, but I need the money. When (if?) these companies experience an upswing, I want to be the person they turn to for their PR consultancy.
our work is lots (200-250)of small clients, so whilst its important to keep each one happy, its not if they dont pay.
You are in a difficult situation. Fingers crossed a solution works out.
ps you could alway sue them it does feel good and gets rid of some stress.
Some years ago we worked out which clients were causing all the stress and most of the 'work'. it turned out that about 2% of clients were creating using about 20% of our time and causing most of the hassle and stress. So we got rid of them which freed up more time to get 'better' clients. It also made me fell much better and I didnt have to sue anyone which was nice as well.
You are in a difficult situation. Fingers crossed a solution works out.
ps you could alway sue them
it does feel good and gets rid of some stress. Some years ago we worked out which clients were causing all the stress and most of the 'work'. it turned out that about 2% of clients were creating using about 20% of our time and causing most of the hassle and stress. So we got rid of them which freed up more time to get 'better' clients. It also made me fell much better and I didnt have to sue anyone which was nice as well.
Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 13th March 16:43
Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 13th March 16:44
Mon Ami Mate said:
superlightr said:
I take a hard line, pay on time or get sued.
If we have done the work, you pay us. If you dont you get sued.
If you try to pay less than we have agreed, you get sued.
can you see a trend here?
Works for me. But most of our clients dont mess us around. We dont 'sell' a product but provide a service.
Sure some clients may decide to instruct us, some do some dont. Some a year or so later. Thats part of it and not anything I can do apart from use my not inconsiderable charm to get them to come to us. Once they have signed the dotted line then we roll with the contract and do what we say we will do and expect them to do likewise or else we sue them - have I said that before?
Does help having been in the legal ide of things when you know who is bluffing or when you can push things or when your onto a good hiding.
If we have done the work, you pay us. If you dont you get sued.
If you try to pay less than we have agreed, you get sued.
can you see a trend here?
Works for me. But most of our clients dont mess us around. We dont 'sell' a product but provide a service.
Sure some clients may decide to instruct us, some do some dont. Some a year or so later. Thats part of it and not anything I can do apart from use my not inconsiderable charm to get them to come to us. Once they have signed the dotted line then we roll with the contract and do what we say we will do and expect them to do likewise or else we sue them - have I said that before?
Does help having been in the legal ide of things when you know who is bluffing or when you can push things or when your onto a good hiding.
I'm a service provider too. My two worst debts are with companies that used to pay monthly retainers within 30 days. Both then experienced sticky patches, stopped the retainer and use me for odd bits of project work as and when. I've always had good relationships with them, until now. THere's no doubt in my mind that I'm not being paid because they don't have the money. They both dangle the carrot of improving circumstances and a return to the monthly retainer, which I'm sure you'll understand is something I very much look forward to. I don't want to chuck the baby out with the bath water, but I need the money. When (if?) these companies experience an upswing, I want to be the person they turn to for their PR consultancy.
Problem is that it sounds like you won't be there to turn to when/if they get their upturn.
Hate to say this, but its time you put yourself first, and your immediate future first and get tough, otherwise they are going to drag you down as well.
I had this problem when i was 20 - two clients sucked all the cash out of my business and then went bust, and i was following rapidly behind them. Ended up having to getting odd jobs to pay off the debts that I accrued from not reacting quick enough.
Many people just seem to want 'cheap'. I recently quoted £1200 for a professionally-made 5-minute promo video - the company hired a camera for £45 and did it themselves... nice, not. But cheap.
Other companies seem to think it's clever not to pay suppliers for as long as possible. There's an ad agency round here that does it deliberately and takes a perverse pride in stringing it out as long as possible.
Companies are generally doing well, employees within those companies seem to be tucking away fat salaries that I can only dream of - but when it comes to budgets, they never have anything, or it's 'on hold', or 'there's been a 'reorganisation...'
Other companies seem to think it's clever not to pay suppliers for as long as possible. There's an ad agency round here that does it deliberately and takes a perverse pride in stringing it out as long as possible.
Companies are generally doing well, employees within those companies seem to be tucking away fat salaries that I can only dream of - but when it comes to budgets, they never have anything, or it's 'on hold', or 'there's been a 'reorganisation...'
superlightr said:
Some years ago we worked out which clients were causing all the stress and most of the 'work'. it turned out that about 2% of clients were creating using about 20% of our time and causing most of the hassle and stress. So we got rid of them which freed up more time to get 'better' clients. It also made me fell much better and I didnt have to sue anyone which was nice as well.
Pareto was a Good man. One way of getting rid of the bad clients is to Put the price up and ask for 90% upfront or other unreasonable business practice.
FOR GOOD customers : Try to price based on giving a discount for prompt payment, or Discount for a 30% upfront deposit.
As a manufacturing engineer I am a customer of One off Tooling and One off Machines, I've spent about £600K in 3 years, in orders ranging from £50 to £260K. Tool makers are the worst at understanding how big businesses will screw them up, so much so that I insisted that one tool maker put all quotes in writing (it was all verbal) and that he put in each quote 30% with order and a 10% reduction for payment within 20 days of invoice. Other manufacturing engineers who dealt with the guy thought his new strategy was 'Crap' but they still dealt with him on the new terms, and the advantage for US is that he's still in business, and not spending his days chasing our finance dept. Every invoice he sends in has the words remember that payment by the following date reduces the bill by £X. If payment is made after that date, the full amount is required.
Our finance department tried to block it, initially but I just ignored them and said "he won't agree to our standard terms without putting the price up by 45% so I've agreed to these terms unilaterally"
Because our relationship is so much better he will do those in a rush jobs that are stopping our production, knowing that he's going to get paid.
simpo two said:
Many people just seem to want 'cheap'. I recently quoted £1200 for a professionally-made 5-minute promo video - the company hired a camera for £45 and did it themselves... nice, not. But cheap.
Other companies seem to think it's clever not to pay suppliers for as long as possible. There's an ad agency round here that does it deliberately and takes a perverse pride in stringing it out as long as possible.
Companies are generally doing well, employees within those companies seem to be tucking away fat salaries that I can only dream of - but when it comes to budgets, they never have anything, or it's 'on hold', or 'there's been a 'reorganisation...'
Other companies seem to think it's clever not to pay suppliers for as long as possible. There's an ad agency round here that does it deliberately and takes a perverse pride in stringing it out as long as possible.
Companies are generally doing well, employees within those companies seem to be tucking away fat salaries that I can only dream of - but when it comes to budgets, they never have anything, or it's 'on hold', or 'there's been a 'reorganisation...'
Everyone wants everything done on the cheap at the moment, There is no money to pay suppliers, but they have got plenty of cash to spend on a board meeting is some swanky hotel somewhere..
5 years ago i went bust, due to poor payment from clients, and decided then to go back into employment, just because there was so much stress/time involved..
I still run a business with the wife, but she has a bit more power of the clients then we have had before, as she is a bookkeeper, but she also has help from a accountant on contract to do the items she is unsure of and to help her do her qualifications.
Mon-ami-mate i hope things start brightening up soon for aya and it all get sorted.
What annoys me more than anything is the potential client who strings me along, gets me to research and write a proposal (which I always make as comprehensive as possible) and then takes the proposal and tries to do it himself on the cheap. This is happening more and more regularly at the moment, one shopfitting company recently had the brass neck to tell me in my first follow-up call that they had no intention of hiring me and had "just been looking for fresh ideas". Strange that wasn't mentioned before the proposal was sent!
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