How to stop things getting worse
Discussion
We all get things wrong sometimes. It's the nature of being a human being - no-one is perfect (except Mrs Local of course, but I wouldn't dare say otherwise, would I?), and we're all disposed to getting things wrong once in a while. I've mentioned before that a good driver learns from and remembers prior mistakes, without dwelling on them, and uses them in their future driving plans as what not to do in similar circumstances.
There are occasions, however, when you can get things wrong, and your actions in trying to correct that mistake can either save the situation, or bugger things up even more than you already have. I'm talking, of course, about skidding.
Now, there's some very good advice in Roadcraft, and I've taught and stood by it's principles for a long time now, but there's one area where I feel that Roadcraft is fundamentally lacking (apart from the overtaking position, and I think we've argued that one to death now), and that's the books teachings on certain aspects of skid control.
It's not that the book is wrong, exactly, it's just that it's teachings on skid correction are just too basic for what is supposedly an advanced drivers manual (bible, even). Of course, most people don't get the benefit of some skid training (although a damn site more, and - dare I say - all new drivers should), and so you could argue that any skid training is advanced, in that it's beyond what an ordinary driver would get, but for me, some of the techniques it recommends are clumsy, basic, and in one case actually dangerous if you're travelling at high speed.
*Reg looks up to a room of silence - you could hear a pin drop. A Police instructor who doesn't agree with Roadcraft? What the chuff is going on?*
Lets start with some stuff that I do agree with, just so you know I haven't gone completely hatstand.
Roadcraft's description of skids, how they occurr and it's advice that the best option with skidding is to avoid getting into skids in the first place is all spot on, and not worth repeating here.
Where it is lacking, however, is in it's description of how to control certain kinds of skids - specifically situations where a driver is experiencing oversteer and understeer.
Now, there are two main errors that a driver makes which induce oversteer and understeer. One is accelerating too harshly when cornering, with which Roadcraft deals, shall we say, adequately. The other one is by cornering at excessive speed, which is where I feel the book's advice is flawed.
Let's start with oversteer, and for my example, I want you to imagine that you're driving a rear-wheel drive car without traction control. *Reg sees the TVR drivers ears pricking up*
The advice in roadcraft if you've started to oversteer, is to first of all release the accelerator or declutch and release the accelerator. Now, if your oversteer is being caused by excessive bootage of the right pedal, then this advice is entirely correct - releasing the accelerator or pressing th clutch and lifting off will almost immediately stop the rear wheels from spinning, regain you some road grip, and providing you've counter-steered correctly, then you should have yourself back on the straight and narrow in next to no time.
But what if your oversteer is caused by travelling excessively fast for the corner? Let's start by having a look at what's happening to the car as it starts to break traction. As the car travels round the corner, it's weight is moving over the wheels which are on the outside of the corner. The more speed you carry into (or build up during) the corner, then the more weight is transferred onto the outer wheels. At the same time, the tyres on those outer wheels are trying to counter the cars natural tendency to travel straight on, by holding lateral (sideways) grip with the road surface. Now, as I've mentioned before, there's only a certain amount of grip available to the tyres, and by cornering harder, you're getting less grip from the inside wheels (because the weight transfer to the outside ones means there's far less weight pressing the inside wheels down), and you're demanding more grip from those outside tyres.
*And breathe*
The sum total of all that is that when the speed becomes too much for the corner, the car will start to slide. The natural tendency of the majority of rear-wheel drive cars is for the rear to start sliding first, so that the car starts to turn in towards the inside of the corner more than the driver wants it to, hence it's oversteering.
And what is Roadcraft's advice in this situation? The same as before - release the accelerator, or declutch and release the accelerator.
Let's think about that for a minute shall we? In a situation where the rear-end of a car is losing grip, Roadcraft is advising us to perform an action which will transfer weight towards the front of the car, and more importantly away from the rear of the car, thus removing grip from the rear at exactly the time when you want more grip, rather than less.
Not the best advice in my opinion.
So what should you do then Reg, you smartarse?
Don't lift off for starters - not completely anyway. The idea is for you to correct the skid using the steering and throttle by not adding any more speed, and by counter-steering.
When I say "by not adding any more speed", think about whet you do when you're in a 40MPH speed limit area - you accelerate up to your chosen speed, and when you've reached it, you relax the pressure on the accelerator slightly so that the car remains at that speed. Note the wording - you relax the pressure on the accelerator - you don't release it. If you released it, the car would start to slow down, whereas you just want it to stay at that speed, so you relax your pressure, but you definitely keep some pressure on the accelerator.
That's what you should do - relax the pressure on the accelerator just slightly, so that the car isn't gaining any more speed - it's what I'd describe as a slight feathering back on the throttle. Certainly not a release of the throttle.
At the same time, you should steer in the direction you want to go.
The steering part isn't any more complicated than that. I could harp on for ages about steering in the direction of the skid, counter-steering and opposite lock, but all you need to know is that you should steer in the direction you want to go.
You should, of course, be careful not to steer too far in the direction you want to go, as this could induce a secondary skid, and these are, on the whole, much worse than the primary skid, and your trousers probably couldn't cope with the additional stress.
So steer just enough in the direction you want to go, and no less.
What about understeer then Reg? Some of us drive Astra VXRs and Golf GTIs - what about us.
Patience my children.
If you're understeering due to excessive acceleration, then, again, Roadcraft's advice is sound. Release the accelerator, or declutch and release the accelerator, take a little steering off, and you should be all smiles again almost instantly.
But again, Roadcraft is lacking somewhat when it comes to understeer due to excessive speed. Many front-wheel drive cars will react to a lift on the throttle in a similar (although not identical) way to a rear-wheel drive car. They will pitch into oversteer as a reaction to the transfer forward of the cars weight which is associated with a lift on the throttle. This FWD oversteer can be even more difficult to catch than in a RWD car, and so, unless you're playing on a circuit or skidpan, should be avoided at all costs.
So, you've carried too much speed into a corner, the car is running wide and not responding to extra lock, and you're suddenly becoming very concerned about an imminent expensive alloy wheel / kerbstone interface - what do you do?
As explained earlier, don't lift off the throttle completely, but feather back on it slightly. In this case you do want to lose a little speed, so that feathering back should be a little more than you would in the oversteering TVR. The reason you want to lose speed is because this will transfer some weight back onto the front wheels, regain you some front-end grip, and, together with steering towards where you want to go, will have you pointing back in the right direction presently.
I'd better just add that practising this stuff on the road isn't to be advised. You could find a quiet roundabout somewhere and have a go, but there's always the possibility that something could go badly wrong and you may well end up with a dented car, a dented ego, a dented driving licence, a dented wallet and.... I'm sure you get the picture.
My advice if you want to have a go at this stuff is this - pay out a few quid and have a half-day at a skid school. It'll be in someone else's car, so you're car won't get dented, you'll have someone who really knows what they're doing sat next to you, so your ego will remain intact, it'll be off-road, so your licence is safe and although the cost might dent your wallet a bit, the pay-off may well come back and save you a fortune at some time in the future.
Go on - you know it makes sense.
There are occasions, however, when you can get things wrong, and your actions in trying to correct that mistake can either save the situation, or bugger things up even more than you already have. I'm talking, of course, about skidding.
Now, there's some very good advice in Roadcraft, and I've taught and stood by it's principles for a long time now, but there's one area where I feel that Roadcraft is fundamentally lacking (apart from the overtaking position, and I think we've argued that one to death now), and that's the books teachings on certain aspects of skid control.
It's not that the book is wrong, exactly, it's just that it's teachings on skid correction are just too basic for what is supposedly an advanced drivers manual (bible, even). Of course, most people don't get the benefit of some skid training (although a damn site more, and - dare I say - all new drivers should), and so you could argue that any skid training is advanced, in that it's beyond what an ordinary driver would get, but for me, some of the techniques it recommends are clumsy, basic, and in one case actually dangerous if you're travelling at high speed.
*Reg looks up to a room of silence - you could hear a pin drop. A Police instructor who doesn't agree with Roadcraft? What the chuff is going on?*
Lets start with some stuff that I do agree with, just so you know I haven't gone completely hatstand.
Roadcraft's description of skids, how they occurr and it's advice that the best option with skidding is to avoid getting into skids in the first place is all spot on, and not worth repeating here.
Where it is lacking, however, is in it's description of how to control certain kinds of skids - specifically situations where a driver is experiencing oversteer and understeer.
Now, there are two main errors that a driver makes which induce oversteer and understeer. One is accelerating too harshly when cornering, with which Roadcraft deals, shall we say, adequately. The other one is by cornering at excessive speed, which is where I feel the book's advice is flawed.
Let's start with oversteer, and for my example, I want you to imagine that you're driving a rear-wheel drive car without traction control. *Reg sees the TVR drivers ears pricking up*
The advice in roadcraft if you've started to oversteer, is to first of all release the accelerator or declutch and release the accelerator. Now, if your oversteer is being caused by excessive bootage of the right pedal, then this advice is entirely correct - releasing the accelerator or pressing th clutch and lifting off will almost immediately stop the rear wheels from spinning, regain you some road grip, and providing you've counter-steered correctly, then you should have yourself back on the straight and narrow in next to no time.
But what if your oversteer is caused by travelling excessively fast for the corner? Let's start by having a look at what's happening to the car as it starts to break traction. As the car travels round the corner, it's weight is moving over the wheels which are on the outside of the corner. The more speed you carry into (or build up during) the corner, then the more weight is transferred onto the outer wheels. At the same time, the tyres on those outer wheels are trying to counter the cars natural tendency to travel straight on, by holding lateral (sideways) grip with the road surface. Now, as I've mentioned before, there's only a certain amount of grip available to the tyres, and by cornering harder, you're getting less grip from the inside wheels (because the weight transfer to the outside ones means there's far less weight pressing the inside wheels down), and you're demanding more grip from those outside tyres.
*And breathe*
The sum total of all that is that when the speed becomes too much for the corner, the car will start to slide. The natural tendency of the majority of rear-wheel drive cars is for the rear to start sliding first, so that the car starts to turn in towards the inside of the corner more than the driver wants it to, hence it's oversteering.
And what is Roadcraft's advice in this situation? The same as before - release the accelerator, or declutch and release the accelerator.
Let's think about that for a minute shall we? In a situation where the rear-end of a car is losing grip, Roadcraft is advising us to perform an action which will transfer weight towards the front of the car, and more importantly away from the rear of the car, thus removing grip from the rear at exactly the time when you want more grip, rather than less.
Not the best advice in my opinion.
So what should you do then Reg, you smartarse?
Don't lift off for starters - not completely anyway. The idea is for you to correct the skid using the steering and throttle by not adding any more speed, and by counter-steering.
When I say "by not adding any more speed", think about whet you do when you're in a 40MPH speed limit area - you accelerate up to your chosen speed, and when you've reached it, you relax the pressure on the accelerator slightly so that the car remains at that speed. Note the wording - you relax the pressure on the accelerator - you don't release it. If you released it, the car would start to slow down, whereas you just want it to stay at that speed, so you relax your pressure, but you definitely keep some pressure on the accelerator.
That's what you should do - relax the pressure on the accelerator just slightly, so that the car isn't gaining any more speed - it's what I'd describe as a slight feathering back on the throttle. Certainly not a release of the throttle.
At the same time, you should steer in the direction you want to go.
The steering part isn't any more complicated than that. I could harp on for ages about steering in the direction of the skid, counter-steering and opposite lock, but all you need to know is that you should steer in the direction you want to go.
You should, of course, be careful not to steer too far in the direction you want to go, as this could induce a secondary skid, and these are, on the whole, much worse than the primary skid, and your trousers probably couldn't cope with the additional stress.
So steer just enough in the direction you want to go, and no less.
What about understeer then Reg? Some of us drive Astra VXRs and Golf GTIs - what about us.
Patience my children.
If you're understeering due to excessive acceleration, then, again, Roadcraft's advice is sound. Release the accelerator, or declutch and release the accelerator, take a little steering off, and you should be all smiles again almost instantly.
But again, Roadcraft is lacking somewhat when it comes to understeer due to excessive speed. Many front-wheel drive cars will react to a lift on the throttle in a similar (although not identical) way to a rear-wheel drive car. They will pitch into oversteer as a reaction to the transfer forward of the cars weight which is associated with a lift on the throttle. This FWD oversteer can be even more difficult to catch than in a RWD car, and so, unless you're playing on a circuit or skidpan, should be avoided at all costs.
So, you've carried too much speed into a corner, the car is running wide and not responding to extra lock, and you're suddenly becoming very concerned about an imminent expensive alloy wheel / kerbstone interface - what do you do?
As explained earlier, don't lift off the throttle completely, but feather back on it slightly. In this case you do want to lose a little speed, so that feathering back should be a little more than you would in the oversteering TVR. The reason you want to lose speed is because this will transfer some weight back onto the front wheels, regain you some front-end grip, and, together with steering towards where you want to go, will have you pointing back in the right direction presently.
I'd better just add that practising this stuff on the road isn't to be advised. You could find a quiet roundabout somewhere and have a go, but there's always the possibility that something could go badly wrong and you may well end up with a dented car, a dented ego, a dented driving licence, a dented wallet and.... I'm sure you get the picture.
My advice if you want to have a go at this stuff is this - pay out a few quid and have a half-day at a skid school. It'll be in someone else's car, so you're car won't get dented, you'll have someone who really knows what they're doing sat next to you, so your ego will remain intact, it'll be off-road, so your licence is safe and although the cost might dent your wallet a bit, the pay-off may well come back and save you a fortune at some time in the future.
Go on - you know it makes sense.
Edited by R_U_LOCAL on Thursday 15th March 22:44
Excellent post, as ever, Reg. Couple of points to introduce into the discussion:
Surely there's a significant difference between just coming off the throttle, and dipping the clutch. Dipping the clutch will remove all drive from the wheels, so I would have thought the tendency would be for the car to centralise its weight front/back (not side to side, of course), whereas leaving the clutch engaged while coming off the throttle would cause a noticeable braking effect at the driven wheels, causing a greater weight shift to the front.
I've been on a skid pan course (Police pan somewhere in Shropshire...) and they had us dip the clutch in every case (rear wheel, front wheel and all wheel). It seemed to work. One technique we were shown, that you haven't mentioned, is for an all-wheel skid, where you apply firm brakes and turn the wheel. At some point (where it's safe!), you come off the brakes, the wheels dig in and the car steers in the chosen direction (e.g. into a side road). Comments?
Surely there's a significant difference between just coming off the throttle, and dipping the clutch. Dipping the clutch will remove all drive from the wheels, so I would have thought the tendency would be for the car to centralise its weight front/back (not side to side, of course), whereas leaving the clutch engaged while coming off the throttle would cause a noticeable braking effect at the driven wheels, causing a greater weight shift to the front.
I've been on a skid pan course (Police pan somewhere in Shropshire...) and they had us dip the clutch in every case (rear wheel, front wheel and all wheel). It seemed to work. One technique we were shown, that you haven't mentioned, is for an all-wheel skid, where you apply firm brakes and turn the wheel. At some point (where it's safe!), you come off the brakes, the wheels dig in and the car steers in the chosen direction (e.g. into a side road). Comments?
Major Bloodnok said:
Excellent post, as ever, Reg. Couple of points to introduce into the discussion:
Surely there's a significant difference between just coming off the throttle, and dipping the clutch. Dipping the clutch will remove all drive from the wheels, so I would have thought the tendency would be for the car to centralise its weight front/back (not side to side, of course), whereas leaving the clutch engaged while coming off the throttle would cause a noticeable braking effect at the driven wheels, causing a greater weight shift to the front.
Surely there's a significant difference between just coming off the throttle, and dipping the clutch. Dipping the clutch will remove all drive from the wheels, so I would have thought the tendency would be for the car to centralise its weight front/back (not side to side, of course), whereas leaving the clutch engaged while coming off the throttle would cause a noticeable braking effect at the driven wheels, causing a greater weight shift to the front.
The difference isn't as significant as you might think, and dipping the clutch immediately removes a control that's vital to good skid control - the throttle. Any slight advantage in weight transfer caused by dipping the clutch is easily outweighed by still having the option of maintaining some throttle control. Don't forget the main thrust of my point - Roadcraft's advice of releasing the throttle / declutching is fine if the oversteer has been induced by excessive wheelspin. I just think that my way is better for oversteer which has been induced by excessive cornering speed.
Major Bloodnok said:
I've been on a skid pan course (Police pan somewhere in Shropshire...) and they had us dip the clutch in every case (rear wheel, front wheel and all wheel). It seemed to work. One technique we were shown, that you haven't mentioned, is for an all-wheel skid, where you apply firm brakes and turn the wheel. At some point (where it's safe!), you come off the brakes, the wheels dig in and the car steers in the chosen direction (e.g. into a side road). Comments?
I imagine that the skids you were correcting on your course weren't at very high speeds. I'm not knocking your training at all - you'll be a much better drive for it, but skid pans by their very nature are designed to allow you to experience skids at fairly safe speeds. At those speeds, the weight transfer isn't as much of an issue, and the clutch in/throttle lift would normally work fine. At higher speeds, however, the weight transfer is more of an issue, and some cars can be very sensitive to even very small throttle inputs at the limit - ask any Peugeot 205 GTI or older Porsche 911 drivers - they'll be nodding their heads reading this.
One other issue with de-clutching. Don't do it if your car is fitted with traction control, as it completely takes away any effect that the TC would have. Traction control systems are becoming more and more sophisticated - some of them, such as the BMW system, will actually brake individual wheels to help you keep control. However, if you dip the clutch, the systems won't kick in, so you're best leaving that clutch pedal well alone.
As for the all-wheel skid, I'll be honest and say that I've never tried that method, so it's not really fair that I comment at the moment. I'm sure someone else will, and rest assured, as soon as I get an opportunity, I'll give it a go and then give you my opinion.
Edit to say that I've just read your last line again, and I lied. I'd mis-read it the first time, and that method of skid control does work, providing you haven't got ABS fitted. Contrary to what I first wrote, I have tried it as a method of controlling understeer and four-wheel skids, and found it a little, how can I put this? Agricultural. It does work, if you'r of a mind to hit the brakes hard enough, but you should be very sure of what your cars reaction will be, as that kind of braking mid-bend can introduce a whole new meaning to "snap oversteer".
Edited by R_U_LOCAL on Thursday 15th March 23:31
I think there is a world of difference between coping with a car that is starting to slide, and catching a car that is wagging its tail and slewing across the road.
The advice to remove the cause of the skid is fine for the first case, and hopefully if you do it quickly enough you will avoid it developing into the second case.
The second is far more challenging though. Simply removing the cause of the slid is almost certainly not enough, you need to start considering the inertia of the car particularly in yaw. Although it's certainly possible to do (and great fun once you've mastered it) it is something that requires considerable skill, and techniques that vary from car to car. It's hard to prescribe a simple way to deal with this that will work in all cases.
Well actually, there is one simple rule of thumb that does work pretty well universally and if applied quickly enough will give you the best chance to save your bacon. Instead of trying to feather the throttle or steer into the slide or dip the clutch or catch the rebound or any of that stuff, simply push the brake pedal through the floor with all of your strength, lock all four wheels and wait for the car to come to a halt. In some cases there are better options, but if your skills are sufficient for you to be able to judge that, you'll be long past reading driving manuals and internet forums for advice.
I've seen no end of people who've ignored this option, tried to stay with it and regain control, and ended up describing a long wavy path into the scenery. It's not something you can think about rationally in the heat of the moment. Decide in advance what your bail-out strategy is going to be: if you aren't sure you are going to regain control, hit the brakes as hard as possible.
The advice to remove the cause of the skid is fine for the first case, and hopefully if you do it quickly enough you will avoid it developing into the second case.
The second is far more challenging though. Simply removing the cause of the slid is almost certainly not enough, you need to start considering the inertia of the car particularly in yaw. Although it's certainly possible to do (and great fun once you've mastered it) it is something that requires considerable skill, and techniques that vary from car to car. It's hard to prescribe a simple way to deal with this that will work in all cases.
Well actually, there is one simple rule of thumb that does work pretty well universally and if applied quickly enough will give you the best chance to save your bacon. Instead of trying to feather the throttle or steer into the slide or dip the clutch or catch the rebound or any of that stuff, simply push the brake pedal through the floor with all of your strength, lock all four wheels and wait for the car to come to a halt. In some cases there are better options, but if your skills are sufficient for you to be able to judge that, you'll be long past reading driving manuals and internet forums for advice.
I've seen no end of people who've ignored this option, tried to stay with it and regain control, and ended up describing a long wavy path into the scenery. It's not something you can think about rationally in the heat of the moment. Decide in advance what your bail-out strategy is going to be: if you aren't sure you are going to regain control, hit the brakes as hard as possible.
R_U_LOCAL said:
Edit to say that I've just read your last line again, and I lied. I'd mis-read it the first time, and that method of skid control does work, providing you haven't got ABS fitted. Contrary to what I first wrote, I have tried it as a method of controlling understeer and four-wheel skids, and found it a little, how can I put this? Agricultural. It does work, if you'r of a mind to hit the brakes hard enough, but you should be very sure of what your cars reaction will be, as that kind of braking mid-bend can introduce a whole new meaning to "snap oversteer".
"Agricultural" is a good term. My thoughts at the time we were shown it was that it seemed to be of limited usefulness, since a) it only really works if you're skidding forwards in a straight line and b) it requires you to look for and identify a "safe harbour" to steer towards.
I take your point about skid pan stuff happening at low speed, although we did do the cadence braking and the "agricultural" braking at about 25 mph, but obviously in a straight line (and still not what you'd call fast, although fast enough to be a bit scary).
GreenV8S said:
Some pretty poor advice.
I can't believe you've read through my post and decided to write that the advisable course of action is to slam on the brakes. At a time when the balance of a car is crucial, and any small action that a driver makes can literally make or break them, you're recommending that they perform an action which throws most of the cars weight forward, away from wheels which may well be starting to lose grip anyway, and then basically pray for a safe ending.
This is an advanced driving forum, and you're advocating the basic reaction of someone whose driver training ended with their DSA test.
The title of my thread gives a clue here - how to stop things getting worse. This suggests that things have already gone wrong, and you're trying to limit the damage. Trust me - in the situations I've described, more often than not, hitting the anchors with all your might will make things far worse.
R_U_LOCAL said:
GreenV8S said:
Some pretty poor advice.
I can't believe you've read through my post and decided to write that the advisable course of action is to slam on the brakes. At a time when the balance of a car is crucial, and any small action that a driver makes can literally make or break them, you're recommending that they perform an action which throws most of the cars weight forward, away from wheels which may well be starting to lose grip anyway, and then basically pray for a safe ending.
This is an advanced driving forum, and you're advocating the basic reaction of someone whose driver training ended with their DSA test.
The title of my thread gives a clue here - how to stop things getting worse. This suggests that things have already gone wrong, and you're trying to limit the damage. Trust me - in the situations I've described, more often than not, hitting the anchors with all your might will make things far worse.
I think Peter was envisaging a situation where control could not be regained, and all one could then do was get the speed down as quickly as possible before hitting something - and never mind which way the car is facing. Prior to reaching that situation, very hard braking would seem to be inadvisable.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
TripleS said:
I think Peter was envisaging a situation where control could not be regained, and all one could then do was get the speed down as quickly as possible before hitting something - and never mind which way the car is facing.
Stamping on the brakes as hard as possible in a situation where the car is unbalanced or skidding would be the worst possible thing to do, the laws of physics tell you that. I learnt that just after passing my test from my dad. That advice saved my life. The best course of action is to steer, steer, steer.
EmmaP said:
TripleS said:
I think Peter was envisaging a situation where control could not be regained, and all one could then do was get the speed down as quickly as possible before hitting something - and never mind which way the car is facing.
Stamping on the brakes as hard as possible in a situation where the car is unbalanced or skidding would be the worst possible thing to do, the laws of physics tell you that. I learnt that just after passing my test from my dad. That advice saved my life. The best course of action is to steer, steer, steer.
Aren't more & more cars coming with sophisticated control systems though (DSC, ESP etc etc) that actually work around the premise that the driver will perform with simple basic reactions ?
I've heard tales of people ending up fighting the safety system with both trying to recover the situation.
Personally I'm not a massive fan of skid pans either. Yes they can be fun, but their value is very limited as they don't relate well to the sort of speeds that people actually find themselves in trouble. Their relevance is more geared towards very extreme surface conditions such as snow & ice, where one would hope that people would be traveling slowly anyway.
I personally value more extreme limit handling exercises, that will show you exactly the sort of space you need.
Of course the best training route is to concentrate on equipping people with the skills to make sure they never get into trouble in the first place, rather than skills to get out of it.
EmmaP said:
TripleS said:
I think Peter was envisaging a situation where control could not be regained, and all one could then do was get the speed down as quickly as possible before hitting something - and never mind which way the car is facing.
Stamping on the brakes as hard as possible in a situation where the car is unbalanced or skidding would be the worst possible thing to do, the laws of physics tell you that. I learnt that just after passing my test from my dad. That advice saved my life. The best course of action is to steer, steer, steer.
Steering might be the best course of action in many cases, if you can overcome the instinct to just brake as hard as possible.
If you feel proper control can not be regained, and steering can't offer an escape, then maximum braking may still be the best answer - in some cases. If it gets to the point where you're going to hit something, then minimum impact speed seems a fair objective.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
R_U_LOCAL said:
GreenV8S said:
Some pretty poor advice.
I can't believe you've read through my post and decided to write that the advisable course of action is to slam on the brakes. At a time when the balance of a car is crucial, and any small action that a driver makes can literally make or break them, you're recommending that they perform an action which throws most of the cars weight forward, away from wheels which may well be starting to lose grip anyway, and then basically pray for a safe ending.
This is an advanced driving forum, and you're advocating the basic reaction of someone whose driver training ended with their DSA test.
I am not suggesting that the first response of a driver when the car starts to slide should be to slam on the brakes.
I am suggesting hard braking as a 'bail-out' option when the car is basically out of control i.e. not pointing in the direction that the driver wants it to go. I've seen too many cars go off hard following a minor mistake, because the driver kept trying to regain the control and ran out of road before they managed it. If the car is travelling in more or less the right direction and pointing somewhere you don't want to go, locking all four wheels gives you a very good chance of coming out unscathed. If it doesn't save you, it will at least ensure that all available grip has been used to slow you down so that if you do hit something you have minimised the impact. If you keep trying to correct the slide and regain control you can travel a very long way forwards and sideways, meanwhile the car is hardly slowing down at all. If you do hit anything you are likely to hit hard, with a significant yaw rate that can result in you hitting several corners before you come to rest. It's very easy to write off a car like that. When everything is badly out of shape and you are not certain that you can regain control, locking all four wheels is actually a pretty good thing to do under most circumstances. And it requires almost no skill, very little presence of mind and is hard to screw up.
Edited by GreenV8S on Saturday 17th March 00:28
Great post & youre quite correct there are some blaring faults in the manual. How do I know this? well I instruct drivers on skid control & drifting from beginner to advanced.
The main factor I'm concerened with is that "most" drivers intuitively steer into the skid/slide assuming its oversteer. Now the actual "steering in bit" most drivers get wrong, in almost ALL cars the car will do this perfectly for you if you do nothing with the wheel (Trust me I'm right on this fact) the wheels essentially stay where they were pointing and the cars body rotates around them, moving the wheel all by itself. Most drivers put inputs in either too much or too little & usually induce more oversteer or end up completely off route.
However the worst part is no where does it explain what to do when the car corrects!!!! this is essential & far more important than the first bit, it also explains why most mishaps through a hedgerow occur after the corner not on it
Let me explain; with the car in oversteer & on opposite lock as the car regains traction "most" drivers having got them selves into this situation still hold the wheel (they appear to be pointing the right way) The car goes straight, the front wheels however are on opposite lock, hey presto round we go the other way usually through the hedge 30 yards past the corner.
I have to say this can't be taught by reading a book, I'd say on average it takes at least two hours to learn this doing it repeatedly & a day for it to become intuitive. However some people notably newbie drivers can pick it up almost instantly.
The main factor I'm concerened with is that "most" drivers intuitively steer into the skid/slide assuming its oversteer. Now the actual "steering in bit" most drivers get wrong, in almost ALL cars the car will do this perfectly for you if you do nothing with the wheel (Trust me I'm right on this fact) the wheels essentially stay where they were pointing and the cars body rotates around them, moving the wheel all by itself. Most drivers put inputs in either too much or too little & usually induce more oversteer or end up completely off route.
However the worst part is no where does it explain what to do when the car corrects!!!! this is essential & far more important than the first bit, it also explains why most mishaps through a hedgerow occur after the corner not on it
Let me explain; with the car in oversteer & on opposite lock as the car regains traction "most" drivers having got them selves into this situation still hold the wheel (they appear to be pointing the right way) The car goes straight, the front wheels however are on opposite lock, hey presto round we go the other way
usually through the hedge 30 yards past the corner. I have to say this can't be taught by reading a book, I'd say on average it takes at least two hours to learn this doing it repeatedly & a day for it to become intuitive. However some people notably newbie drivers can pick it up almost instantly.
Edited by cptsideways on Saturday 17th March 10:32
GreenV8S said:
Some more stuff
Oh, I see - I think you may have posted in the wrong thread. This is the "how to stop things getting worse" thread. I think you wanted the "how to stop things getting even worse when things have already gone wrong, you've tried everything you possibly can, and it's still going wrong" thread.
You're right of course - if you've tried everything else, and you're still heading for the scenery at a strange angle, your last chance to save everything (or to minimise the damage to you and your car) is to press the brakes - hard.
It is the last option though, and your original post made me think that you were recommending it as a first option, which it clearly isn't.
vonhosen said:
Some other stuff about modern electronic driver aids
I've been lucky enough to experience some of these driver aids first hand in a safe environment, and they're very good. I'll not go into all the different acronyms on here, as each manufacturer seems to come up with a new one, and I don't want to start getting my ESPs mixed up with my DSCs.
Needless to say, these systems work in similar ways, with a combination of wheel sensors, pitch sensors, yaw sensors, roll sensors, and other such electric trickery which all link into a central unit which constantly monitors what you're doing with the car. If things start to go wrong, this unit can take control of various aspects of the cars controls, such as throttling back and even applying individual brakes, in order to bring the car back under control.
As an example, if a car starts to oversteer in a right-hand bend, the unit can apply the rear offside brake individually, which helps the driver to regain control of the car.
It's all very clever stuff, and having tried it in the same car, switched off and then on, I can say it works brilliantly. Well, as good as a very good driver anyway.
Just remember though, if you take the option of pressing the clutch, the majority of these driver aids won't work properly, as you'll take away the drive from the wheels. So if your car has these aids, bear that in mind.
A little story for you (completely true, as I dealt with the accident, so I promise you it's not one of those Policeman's urban legends).
I went to deal with an accident once, I think it will have been in about 1997 or 1998. The driver of a 2.5 litre Vauxhall Omega had lost control on a right-hand bend, done a 180 degree rotation, and then left the road on the offside, landing in a ditch. The car was written off, but the driver, although shaken up, was uninjured.
I spoke to him about what had happened, and I expressed some surprise, as I knew that Omegas were fitted with traction control.
He agreed with me, especially as he said "I know - and I religiously turn it on every time I get into it".
I asked him if he had read his owners manual, and if he knew that the switch which turned the traction control light on on his dashboard actually turned the system off.
I've never seen anyone do a better Homer Simpson "D'OH" in all my life.
Quick lesson there for everyone - RTFM - Read The Flippin' Manual.
Edited by R_U_LOCAL on Saturday 17th March 12:39
cpt sideways said However the worst part is no where does it explain what to do when the car corrects!!!! this is essential & far more important than the first bit, it also explains why most mishaps through a hedgerow occur after the corner not on it
However the worst part is no where does it explain what to do when the car corrects!!!! this is essential & far more important than the first bit, it also explains why most mishaps through a hedgerow occur after the corner not on it
Let me explain; with the car in oversteer & on opposite lock as the car regains traction "most" drivers having got them selves into this situation still hold the wheel (they appear to be pointing the right way) The car goes straight, the front wheels however are on opposite lock, hey presto round we go the other way usually through the hedge 30 yards past the corner.
I too have sat next to hundreds of drivers whilst they learn skid control in a skid car with a frame, and this is exactly where they go wrong with controlling oversteer. Not only do they not straighten the wheel when the skid starts straightening but they actually come back on the throttle at the same time!!
This I call the playstation syndrome because that is, in part, the technique they find by trial and error works on the car racing games. At least this is the only plausible explanation I can think of!
My comments on the finer points of how much throttle to apply (or not) whilst trying your corrective actions are that (unless the rear wheel drive car has a limited slip diff), whilst the throttle is being applied the inside wheel will be merrily spinning, which has the beneficial effect of removing drive to the outside wheel. Ideally you are aiming to allow both driven wheels to go the same speed as the road, with the object of regaining grip as soon as possible, so a complete lift or feather is fine.
Now about the use of the clutch. Training novices to use the clutch should only be done on very slow speed skids when lift off engine braking will make the difference between grip and continued slip. It is also probably one too many corrective action for them to do in a time of real stress. The effect of declutching on oversteer is that the snap straight happens even faster and too fast for them to straighten the wheel hence the secondary spin.
Those of us who drive competitively in rear wheel drive cars know well, that if we want to slow down the process of the oversteer skid (to help improve chances of full control) and we have confidence in our use of steering correction and straightening, we will actually keep the power on more to avoid a sudden weight transfer/grip/straighten process and make it much more manageable, because oversteer should still be allowing the car to continue around the corner, albeit pointed in a different direction!, so it becomes a "car control problem" rather than a " wrong direction of the car problem"
Understeer for novice skidders is tricky to spot until its too late and leads to continued turning of the steering into the turn and subsequent loss of control when, eventually, the tyres grip and send them off the road following the direction the wheels are now pointing. I suggest a very firm corrective action of "never turn tighter into the turn" look for all the signs of a skid, Using 4 key senses. Vision, with the scenery not going passed as fast as before. Feel on the wheel the sudden lightness causing an involutary in-turn movement of the wheel. Sound, maybe the sound made by the wheels (if any)and the sound of the revs rising if it is the driven wheels skidding, and your balance mechanism telling you the radius of the turn has changed.
Quick recognition of understeer is crucial because it is much less dramatic than oversteer and the natural driving reaction is to tighten the radius of the corner by turning in more. If we do the skid will go on longer, due to the increased angle between where the wheels are pointing and the direction the car is travelling, and the potential for serious loss of control when the tyres do grip. Think of the number of powerful front drive cars you have seen off the road on the "inside" of the corner when they have been going too fast!
However the worst part is no where does it explain what to do when the car corrects!!!! this is essential & far more important than the first bit, it also explains why most mishaps through a hedgerow occur after the corner not on it
Let me explain; with the car in oversteer & on opposite lock as the car regains traction "most" drivers having got them selves into this situation still hold the wheel (they appear to be pointing the right way) The car goes straight, the front wheels however are on opposite lock, hey presto round we go the other way
usually through the hedge 30 yards past the corner. I too have sat next to hundreds of drivers whilst they learn skid control in a skid car with a frame, and this is exactly where they go wrong with controlling oversteer. Not only do they not straighten the wheel when the skid starts straightening but they actually come back on the throttle at the same time!!
This I call the playstation syndrome because that is, in part, the technique they find by trial and error works on the car racing games. At least this is the only plausible explanation I can think of!
My comments on the finer points of how much throttle to apply (or not) whilst trying your corrective actions are that (unless the rear wheel drive car has a limited slip diff), whilst the throttle is being applied the inside wheel will be merrily spinning, which has the beneficial effect of removing drive to the outside wheel. Ideally you are aiming to allow both driven wheels to go the same speed as the road, with the object of regaining grip as soon as possible, so a complete lift or feather is fine.
Now about the use of the clutch. Training novices to use the clutch should only be done on very slow speed skids when lift off engine braking will make the difference between grip and continued slip. It is also probably one too many corrective action for them to do in a time of real stress. The effect of declutching on oversteer is that the snap straight happens even faster and too fast for them to straighten the wheel hence the secondary spin.
Those of us who drive competitively in rear wheel drive cars know well, that if we want to slow down the process of the oversteer skid (to help improve chances of full control) and we have confidence in our use of steering correction and straightening, we will actually keep the power on more to avoid a sudden weight transfer/grip/straighten process and make it much more manageable, because oversteer should still be allowing the car to continue around the corner, albeit pointed in a different direction!, so it becomes a "car control problem" rather than a " wrong direction of the car problem"
Understeer for novice skidders is tricky to spot until its too late and leads to continued turning of the steering into the turn and subsequent loss of control when, eventually, the tyres grip and send them off the road following the direction the wheels are now pointing. I suggest a very firm corrective action of "never turn tighter into the turn" look for all the signs of a skid, Using 4 key senses. Vision, with the scenery not going passed as fast as before. Feel on the wheel the sudden lightness causing an involutary in-turn movement of the wheel. Sound, maybe the sound made by the wheels (if any)and the sound of the revs rising if it is the driven wheels skidding, and your balance mechanism telling you the radius of the turn has changed.
Quick recognition of understeer is crucial because it is much less dramatic than oversteer and the natural driving reaction is to tighten the radius of the corner by turning in more. If we do the skid will go on longer, due to the increased angle between where the wheels are pointing and the direction the car is travelling, and the potential for serious loss of control when the tyres do grip. Think of the number of powerful front drive cars you have seen off the road on the "inside" of the corner when they have been going too fast!
I tell you whats funny about all this car control malarky
It appears all those who've spent far too much time on the other side of hedgerows notably young farmers & the like have no problems mastering this dark art. Those that have'nt have had the pleasure of the fields have a propensity to find the otherside of the hedgerows playing catch up.
Made me laugh thinking about it anyway
It appears all those who've spent far too much time on the other side of hedgerows notably young farmers & the like have no problems mastering this dark art. Those that have'nt have had the pleasure of the fields have a propensity to find the otherside of the hedgerows playing catch up.
Made me laugh thinking about it anyway
I get the impression that the underlying direction of these posts seem to be of drivers getting out of shape, and, when it all goes wrong it's Hello hedge.
I think though, in the real world, getting out of shape on a public road is very likely going to result in involving some innocent third party in the incident. Would the realisation of this occuring at this time not perhaps affect all the theoretical / skid pan training? For instance, if say you have got into a skid / oversteer situation and you are beginning to get it all under control as per all the knowledge, but Mr & Mrs Smith with their 3 kids blithely arrive around the bend in your correction trajectory, what then?
You realise that if you continue your correction you may stay out of the hedge, but now your'e on the wrong side of the road. and, unless you do something drastic it's going to get really messy.
Most A roads simply don't have enough room to correct these sort of errors without crossing the centre line and placing other road users in danger. I'm not knocking anyone, and I realise that there is the tremendous input to stop us getting into these situations in the first place but, are we not a little blase' sometimes?
I think though, in the real world, getting out of shape on a public road is very likely going to result in involving some innocent third party in the incident. Would the realisation of this occuring at this time not perhaps affect all the theoretical / skid pan training? For instance, if say you have got into a skid / oversteer situation and you are beginning to get it all under control as per all the knowledge, but Mr & Mrs Smith with their 3 kids blithely arrive around the bend in your correction trajectory, what then?
You realise that if you continue your correction you may stay out of the hedge, but now your'e on the wrong side of the road. and, unless you do something drastic it's going to get really messy.
Most A roads simply don't have enough room to correct these sort of errors without crossing the centre line and placing other road users in danger. I'm not knocking anyone, and I realise that there is the tremendous input to stop us getting into these situations in the first place but, are we not a little blase' sometimes?
R_U_LOCAL said:
GreenV8S said:
Some more stuff
Oh, I see - I think you may have posted in the wrong thread. This is the "how to stop things getting worse" thread. I think you wanted the "how to stop things getting even worse when things have already gone wrong, you've tried everything you possibly can, and it's still going wrong" thread.
You're right of course - if you've tried everything else, and you're still heading for the scenery at a strange angle, your last chance to save everything (or to minimise the damage to you and your car) is to press the brakes - hard.
I wouldn't think of this *just* as a last resort. The longer you keep fighting to get the car under control the greater the likely damage if you fail. Car control at the limit usually comes down to yaw control, but it's important to remember that yaw control is just a means to an end - controlling the vehicles direction. Even if you have lost yaw control you can still control the direction by locking up - effectively making the vehicle continue in a straight line.
If the vehicle is more-or-less under control and you are just struggling with a little understeer or oversteer, it's realistic to hope you can stay in control (or at least get it back under control without using much space) if you do roughly the right thing soon enough. Once the vehicle has got a lot of yaw deflection (say more than about 15 degrees to the direction of travel) then you have to manage the yaw momentum as well, and that's a far harder thing to achieve and not something that a novice could expect to achieve on their first attempt. It works a lot like a child's swing - if you swing your feet out of phase with the swing you can pump it up, change the phase slightly and you can stop if very quickly. To damp down the yaw oscillation means your corrections must be the right amount, and applied and removed soon enough. Being slightly too slow will mean you fail to damp it down, you can spend a long time (and cover a lot of distance) fighting for control.
However, as long as you're travelling roughly in the same direction as the road it doesn't matter which way the car is pointing, if you lock up it will slide to a halt in a straight line.
This doesn't negate the need to know how to control the car when it slides, it just gives you a way to limit the damage when you fail - if you do it soon enough.
I think the simple issue is new drivers are not taught the limits, ignore what happens if it all goes tits up for a min, how do they know what is safe or not, they simply have no idea, bar the sign on the stick with a number in the middle.
I'd suggest 75% of drivers could not demonstrate to me the limit of their vehicle, be that braking, cornering or avoidance.
I'd suggest 75% of drivers could not demonstrate to me the limit of their vehicle, be that braking, cornering or avoidance.
You know, I totally agree. People don't know their car's limits, or it's bloody width in most cases.
Bikers have to have an off-road test, so why shouldnt drivers? I'd gladly sit that one!
1.) Hill Starting
2.) Width, and length of vehicle tests
3.) Emergency stopping high and low speed with midway steering
4.) Skid avoidance and control
I'm not sure how useful it would be to push the poor loves round corners at speed, as that's not really something you should have to know for normal driving, and succeeding once on a test might give nobby and his mates over confidence.
One thing I really think should be part of the experience is the crash simulation... I had a monumental off at the age of 18 - due to someone coming the other way on my side of the road - but to be fair I could have handled it better and probably avoided the ensuing mess had I the experience I have now... Anyway, the point is this - it f***ing hurt - I remember the transit van I hit with my offside front wing while sideways on full lock - the look of horror on the drivers face.. the slow motion of the initial impact, the windscreen popping out, the seatbelt cutting into my shoulder and chest, the bonnet crumpling and the dash board and wheel coming inexorably closer to my chest.... the ensuing dust and debris that filled the cabin (and my eyes) causing disorientation, the scenary spinning past as the car bounced off the van, the sound of metals on tarmac, the grass and dirst coming in through the now open windcreen aperture, the car rolling on it's side, and coming to rest with an almighty bang in a culvert - all happened in a microsecond... Oh and the burning hot coolant pouring onto my legs, and the high pressure stream of petrol squirting over the interior of the car from the fuel filter now that the bonnet was hanging off by one of it's hinges. I was fortunate to walk away with nothing more than a few cuts and bruises, and 4 hours later competed in my first road rally as a navigator - at least there was somewhere for the adrenaline to go!
Anyway - after all that - I think they should strap each new driver into a simulation of what I went through - because if that doesn't teach you the most healthy respect for the scenery and other vehicles, then you need your head looking at.
Steve
Bikers have to have an off-road test, so why shouldnt drivers? I'd gladly sit that one!
1.) Hill Starting
2.) Width, and length of vehicle tests
3.) Emergency stopping high and low speed with midway steering
4.) Skid avoidance and control
I'm not sure how useful it would be to push the poor loves round corners at speed, as that's not really something you should have to know for normal driving, and succeeding once on a test might give nobby and his mates over confidence.
One thing I really think should be part of the experience is the crash simulation... I had a monumental off at the age of 18 - due to someone coming the other way on my side of the road - but to be fair I could have handled it better and probably avoided the ensuing mess had I the experience I have now... Anyway, the point is this - it f***ing hurt - I remember the transit van I hit with my offside front wing while sideways on full lock - the look of horror on the drivers face.. the slow motion of the initial impact, the windscreen popping out, the seatbelt cutting into my shoulder and chest, the bonnet crumpling and the dash board and wheel coming inexorably closer to my chest.... the ensuing dust and debris that filled the cabin (and my eyes) causing disorientation, the scenary spinning past as the car bounced off the van, the sound of metals on tarmac, the grass and dirst coming in through the now open windcreen aperture, the car rolling on it's side, and coming to rest with an almighty bang in a culvert - all happened in a microsecond... Oh and the burning hot coolant pouring onto my legs, and the high pressure stream of petrol squirting over the interior of the car from the fuel filter now that the bonnet was hanging off by one of it's hinges. I was fortunate to walk away with nothing more than a few cuts and bruises, and 4 hours later competed in my first road rally as a navigator - at least there was somewhere for the adrenaline to go!
Anyway - after all that - I think they should strap each new driver into a simulation of what I went through - because if that doesn't teach you the most healthy respect for the scenery and other vehicles, then you need your head looking at.
Steve
Interesting...points
Not sure who this thread is aimed at! but for me this works
I'm gong into a corner at 120mph the back end starts to slide *or I may have induced this by over steering into said corner to turn car* so what I'll do is keep the power on and use the rear wheels to steer car around bend adjusting steering input to counter amount of rear slide, all this is done on auto pilot as I'm thinking about the next corner anyway. If the back end breaks away I'll go full opposite lock and regain control, failing this I crash and learn about the limits for the next time.
When racing I like a setup that oversteer's so I can control the corner using the rear. When I get understeer * in wet* turning into a corner I apply full lock opposite to corner, which breaks grip then oversteer into the corner under full power, or if I know the machine is setup ok wait for the understeer to end then grip again and full power into corner etc etc. There's so many factors is hard to apply a set of rules to be honest, it's all done on feel and unless you drive over the limits *you can't on the road* then your never get that feel.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9MYwyQYs5E
Not sure who this thread is aimed at! but for me this works
I'm gong into a corner at 120mph the back end starts to slide *or I may have induced this by over steering into said corner to turn car* so what I'll do is keep the power on and use the rear wheels to steer car around bend adjusting steering input to counter amount of rear slide, all this is done on auto pilot as I'm thinking about the next corner anyway. If the back end breaks away I'll go full opposite lock and regain control, failing this I crash and learn about the limits for the next time.
When racing I like a setup that oversteer's so I can control the corner using the rear. When I get understeer * in wet* turning into a corner I apply full lock opposite to corner, which breaks grip then oversteer into the corner under full power, or if I know the machine is setup ok wait for the understeer to end then grip again and full power into corner etc etc. There's so many factors is hard to apply a set of rules to be honest, it's all done on feel and unless you drive over the limits *you can't on the road* then your never get that feel.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9MYwyQYs5E
Edited by superkartracer on Wednesday 25th April 14:38
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