Changing run flats to conventional tyres
Discussion
My dad had a puncture on his 525d and was looking at this at an opportunity to change the run flats to normal tyres (fed up with hard and fidgety ride etc). However the service manager at the local BMW dealer told him he would need to buy new rims in order to do this. Is this true, or has he just been fobbed off?
Fobbed Off in the extreme! I swapped my last z4 tyres from RFT to Michelib PS2 with not a hint of a problem.
He's trying one on and should be told that he's been found out. Make him feel like crap then hit him for his best price for the new tyres. Then go elsewhere cos they'll still rip you off!
He's trying one on and should be told that he's been found out. Make him feel like crap then hit him for his best price for the new tyres. Then go elsewhere cos they'll still rip you off!
^^
What he said. Many garages will spout utter boswellox to try and get you to replace your ruin-flats with more ruin-flats. The best thing I ever did to the MINI was bin them and fit proper tyres.
After all, does the entire range (which uses the same wheels) have ruin-flats? You can spec a new BMW with proper tyres + tyre gunk. That car will come with the same wheels as all the others.
What he said. Many garages will spout utter boswellox to try and get you to replace your ruin-flats with more ruin-flats. The best thing I ever did to the MINI was bin them and fit proper tyres.
After all, does the entire range (which uses the same wheels) have ruin-flats? You can spec a new BMW with proper tyres + tyre gunk. That car will come with the same wheels as all the others.
Hi
You can use standard wheels.
However, before you give up on Run-Flats, they ain't all the same.
The latest 3 series in particular, which is fitted with latest generation tyres, has been praised for its ride quality by most journos.
On my 5 series, I have swapped from 2004 spec Dunlop SP01 to 2006 spec Goodyear NCT5 tyres and the ride has improved.
I must admit that I do work for both Goodyear and Dunlop, and have done a lot of testing on everything from Mini to 7 series with both brands and also with other tyre brands.
The issue is that early Run Flats were designed to support the armoured, bullet proof cars and were frankly overengineered for the job.
The latest generation tyres are sometimes more comfortable than standard, the reason being is that the engineers have found that by using the reinforced sidewall to handle some of the cornering stresses they have been able to build more suppleness into the tread face itself. Also, compound and material technology is advancing at a rapid rate.
On Goodyear and Dunlop tyres the new generation versions can be identified by the logo 'RunOnFlat' rather than the old 'EMT' (Goodyear) and 'DSST' (Dunlop)markings.
You can use standard wheels.
However, before you give up on Run-Flats, they ain't all the same.
The latest 3 series in particular, which is fitted with latest generation tyres, has been praised for its ride quality by most journos.
On my 5 series, I have swapped from 2004 spec Dunlop SP01 to 2006 spec Goodyear NCT5 tyres and the ride has improved.
I must admit that I do work for both Goodyear and Dunlop, and have done a lot of testing on everything from Mini to 7 series with both brands and also with other tyre brands.
The issue is that early Run Flats were designed to support the armoured, bullet proof cars and were frankly overengineered for the job.
The latest generation tyres are sometimes more comfortable than standard, the reason being is that the engineers have found that by using the reinforced sidewall to handle some of the cornering stresses they have been able to build more suppleness into the tread face itself. Also, compound and material technology is advancing at a rapid rate.
On Goodyear and Dunlop tyres the new generation versions can be identified by the logo 'RunOnFlat' rather than the old 'EMT' (Goodyear) and 'DSST' (Dunlop)markings.
Redlake
That's useful info, my 8 month old 33d Touring is coming up for new rears and I was going to change to conventional rather than runflats, it's fitted with Michelins and the ride is fine but the handling can be awful, hit a bump/ pothole with a loaded wheel and the car lurches horribly, giving the impression it's going to throw you in the nearest hedge. I'd put it down to the sidewall stiffness
Do you think the newer type Runflats will behave better?
That's useful info, my 8 month old 33d Touring is coming up for new rears and I was going to change to conventional rather than runflats, it's fitted with Michelins and the ride is fine but the handling can be awful, hit a bump/ pothole with a loaded wheel and the car lurches horribly, giving the impression it's going to throw you in the nearest hedge. I'd put it down to the sidewall stiffness
Do you think the newer type Runflats will behave better?
F355GTS said:
Redlake
That's useful info, my 8 month old 33d Touring is coming up for new rears and I was going to change to conventional rather than runflats, it's fitted with Michelins and the ride is fine but the handling can be awful, hit a bump/ pothole with a loaded wheel and the car lurches horribly, giving the impression it's going to throw you in the nearest hedge. I'd put it down to the sidewall stiffness
Do you think the newer type Runflats will behave better?
That's useful info, my 8 month old 33d Touring is coming up for new rears and I was going to change to conventional rather than runflats, it's fitted with Michelins and the ride is fine but the handling can be awful, hit a bump/ pothole with a loaded wheel and the car lurches horribly, giving the impression it's going to throw you in the nearest hedge. I'd put it down to the sidewall stiffness
Do you think the newer type Runflats will behave better?
My E90 3 series feels exactly the same when hitting potholes and manhole covers! Nightmare.... feels like 10yr old dampers on car!
How on earth do you need new rears on an 8 month car mate !!Leave the DTC ON!
There is space for a space saver in the 5 so change them, they are awful and it transforms the ride.
The new Michelin Pilot Sport 2 zero pressure tyre is however a good run flat, sorry to say far better than the dunlop or the goodyear, but very expensive, I was quoted nearly a grand for 4.
The new Michelin Pilot Sport 2 zero pressure tyre is however a good run flat, sorry to say far better than the dunlop or the goodyear, but very expensive, I was quoted nearly a grand for 4.
sgtvr said:
F355GTS said:
Redlake
That's useful info, my 8 month old 33d Touring is coming up for new rears and I was going to change to conventional rather than runflats, it's fitted with Michelins and the ride is fine but the handling can be awful, hit a bump/ pothole with a loaded wheel and the car lurches horribly, giving the impression it's going to throw you in the nearest hedge. I'd put it down to the sidewall stiffness
Do you think the newer type Runflats will behave better?
That's useful info, my 8 month old 33d Touring is coming up for new rears and I was going to change to conventional rather than runflats, it's fitted with Michelins and the ride is fine but the handling can be awful, hit a bump/ pothole with a loaded wheel and the car lurches horribly, giving the impression it's going to throw you in the nearest hedge. I'd put it down to the sidewall stiffness
Do you think the newer type Runflats will behave better?
My E90 3 series feels exactly the same when hitting potholes and manhole covers! Nightmare.... feels like 10yr old dampers on car!
How on earth do you need new rears on an 8 month car mate !!Leave the DTC ON!
gizlaroc said:
Oh and the 3 series from sept 2006 got bilstein dampers on the m-sport set up, this is why they are getting good review and it really is back to a proper luxury ride again with superb handling.
hmm this is why the 335i Coupe I had for a couple of days last week was far supeirior, it was running Bridgestones though
sgtvr said:
F355GTS said:
Redlake
That's useful info, my 8 month old 33d Touring is coming up for new rears and I was going to change to conventional rather than runflats, it's fitted with Michelins and the ride is fine but the handling can be awful, hit a bump/ pothole with a loaded wheel and the car lurches horribly, giving the impression it's going to throw you in the nearest hedge. I'd put it down to the sidewall stiffness
Do you think the newer type Runflats will behave better?
That's useful info, my 8 month old 33d Touring is coming up for new rears and I was going to change to conventional rather than runflats, it's fitted with Michelins and the ride is fine but the handling can be awful, hit a bump/ pothole with a loaded wheel and the car lurches horribly, giving the impression it's going to throw you in the nearest hedge. I'd put it down to the sidewall stiffness
Do you think the newer type Runflats will behave better?
My E90 3 series feels exactly the same when hitting potholes and manhole covers! Nightmare.... feels like 10yr old dampers on car!
How on earth do you need new rears on an 8 month car mate !!Leave the DTC ON!
You got me thinking, the car's done 13k, 2k of which were on other Winter tyres, and roughly 2k of which was towing a Car trailer with Caterham, The fronts are fine but the rears are only just above the wear markers, and the DTC is always on!
Hi,
I've driven a quite a few different spec 3 series over the last two years and myself and the service manager from my BMW dealer both agree that the ride seems to be worse on 17 inch run flats for that fidgety unpredictable handling.
My current car is 3 weeks old and it's a sport spec on 18's which the ride and composure on lakedistrict roads feels very good indeed, mind i like the ride being firm hence why i opted for sports model.
But i think the later tyres are much better.
My only concern for going over to conventional tyres would be the handling, surely the suspension is set up for the RFT's and putting a tyre on with a softer sidewall could compromise handling?
I like to drive in a spirited manner on the back roads and would be dissapointed if the handling was affected just for straightline comfort.
Lee
If there is no compromise in handling i may move over myself.
Also is there any insurance issues if you had an accident?
Lee
I've driven a quite a few different spec 3 series over the last two years and myself and the service manager from my BMW dealer both agree that the ride seems to be worse on 17 inch run flats for that fidgety unpredictable handling.
My current car is 3 weeks old and it's a sport spec on 18's which the ride and composure on lakedistrict roads feels very good indeed, mind i like the ride being firm hence why i opted for sports model.
But i think the later tyres are much better.
My only concern for going over to conventional tyres would be the handling, surely the suspension is set up for the RFT's and putting a tyre on with a softer sidewall could compromise handling?
I like to drive in a spirited manner on the back roads and would be dissapointed if the handling was affected just for straightline comfort.
Lee
If there is no compromise in handling i may move over myself.
Also is there any insurance issues if you had an accident?
Lee
A couple of questions to answer here.....
I believe that the 3 series and the 1 series had their suspension set up designed with the bump/rebound characteristics for run-flats, whilst 5-series were a bit of a compromise (as RunFlats were not standard on every model as they are on 1 or 3s).
Since Goodyear and Dunlop introduced the RunOnFlat generation instead of EMT/DSST it has also gained OE approval on the Ford S-Max, Maserati Quattroporte, Rolls Royce Phantom and Ferrari F430 (US market) - all cars where a good ride and/or handling is critical.
Regarding PAX, which has a solid rubber inner wheel mounted to a special wheel to support the weight of the car after the puncture, you would need new wheels and tyres. PAX works well on high profile tyres, such as truck or tractor tyres, but is less effective on low profile tyres as there simply isn't enough depth for the solid inner ring to work. It is a great idea, but not now that drivers are demanding ultra low profile tyres. I think it only ever had OE approval on the old Scenic and briefly on the Bentley Continental and Audi A8.
I looked at some sales statistics for tyres (yes, I'm that dull) and it is interesting to note that Britain has the greatest proportion of BMWs specced with option tyres (eg: 18/19 inch). The majority of mainland Europe 3 series and 1 series are happily on 16s and 5s on 17s. The same goes for Audi A4s and A6s, where most are on 15s or 16s, with 17 and 18 being most prevalent in the UK. Oddly, my old Audi A4 (which did have woeful damping) was better composed on its (BMW 1 series spec) 205/50R17 RunOnFlats than it was on 235/40R18 OE non runflat tyres.
Does the UK have a 'size issue', and is this the root of our BMW ride woes?!!
I believe that the 3 series and the 1 series had their suspension set up designed with the bump/rebound characteristics for run-flats, whilst 5-series were a bit of a compromise (as RunFlats were not standard on every model as they are on 1 or 3s).
Since Goodyear and Dunlop introduced the RunOnFlat generation instead of EMT/DSST it has also gained OE approval on the Ford S-Max, Maserati Quattroporte, Rolls Royce Phantom and Ferrari F430 (US market) - all cars where a good ride and/or handling is critical.
Regarding PAX, which has a solid rubber inner wheel mounted to a special wheel to support the weight of the car after the puncture, you would need new wheels and tyres. PAX works well on high profile tyres, such as truck or tractor tyres, but is less effective on low profile tyres as there simply isn't enough depth for the solid inner ring to work. It is a great idea, but not now that drivers are demanding ultra low profile tyres. I think it only ever had OE approval on the old Scenic and briefly on the Bentley Continental and Audi A8.
I looked at some sales statistics for tyres (yes, I'm that dull) and it is interesting to note that Britain has the greatest proportion of BMWs specced with option tyres (eg: 18/19 inch). The majority of mainland Europe 3 series and 1 series are happily on 16s and 5s on 17s. The same goes for Audi A4s and A6s, where most are on 15s or 16s, with 17 and 18 being most prevalent in the UK. Oddly, my old Audi A4 (which did have woeful damping) was better composed on its (BMW 1 series spec) 205/50R17 RunOnFlats than it was on 235/40R18 OE non runflat tyres.
Does the UK have a 'size issue', and is this the root of our BMW ride woes?!!
my tuppence worth as I have just switched from Bridgestone Potenza run flat's to Goodyear Eagle F1 convential tyres.
I initially read lots of good comments on the switch on the Z4um site and as all four tyres were due to be replaced decided to take the plunge a month ago.
Didn't bother with the main dealer as I was told to expect some difficulties with trying to replace the OE spec tyres with something else, so went to local tyre firm who have a good reputation.
Was gob smacked when the tyre firm initially refused to fit the Goodyear's. Eventually haggled (can you believe - given that I was about to spend around £550.00) to sign a disclaimer that should anything happen to me or the car that I would not look to sue the tyre firm and that I had personally chosen these tyres.
The wording on the disclaimer made me laugh "the use of convential tyres over the manufacturer's specified run flat tyre can have an affect on the handling, driveability, comfort and safety of the vehicle".
Having had the convential tyres on the for the last four weeks I do concur with the disclaimer, the handling has improved, driveability has improved, comfort has improved with a not so rock hard ride and I feel far safer on the twisties than I did on the run flats.
I initially read lots of good comments on the switch on the Z4um site and as all four tyres were due to be replaced decided to take the plunge a month ago.
Didn't bother with the main dealer as I was told to expect some difficulties with trying to replace the OE spec tyres with something else, so went to local tyre firm who have a good reputation.
Was gob smacked when the tyre firm initially refused to fit the Goodyear's. Eventually haggled (can you believe - given that I was about to spend around £550.00) to sign a disclaimer that should anything happen to me or the car that I would not look to sue the tyre firm and that I had personally chosen these tyres.
The wording on the disclaimer made me laugh "the use of convential tyres over the manufacturer's specified run flat tyre can have an affect on the handling, driveability, comfort and safety of the vehicle".
Having had the convential tyres on the for the last four weeks I do concur with the disclaimer, the handling has improved, driveability has improved, comfort has improved with a not so rock hard ride and I feel far safer on the twisties than I did on the run flats.
Hi,
Out of interest, how much did you get quoted for new 235/55/18 Ps2 ZP 's on a 330d.
My dealer quoted my £280 fitted (for 1). You can get the tyre delivered from tyretraderscouk for less than £200 - so £80 to fit it seemed a bit steep !
Main problem I can see is that some independant garages are not equipped to deal with
fitting runflats due to the problems caused by thick sidewalls. (they fit them ok, but at the expense of a damaged rim coating!)
I have had this twice now (once with etyres and once with an independant).
barney
Out of interest, how much did you get quoted for new 235/55/18 Ps2 ZP 's on a 330d.
My dealer quoted my £280 fitted (for 1). You can get the tyre delivered from tyretraderscouk for less than £200 - so £80 to fit it seemed a bit steep !
Main problem I can see is that some independant garages are not equipped to deal with
fitting runflats due to the problems caused by thick sidewalls. (they fit them ok, but at the expense of a damaged rim coating!)
I have had this twice now (once with etyres and once with an independant).
barney
romanymagic said:
my tuppence worth as I have just switched from Bridgestone Potenza run flat's to Goodyear Eagle F1 convential tyres.
I initially read lots of good comments on the switch on the Z4um site and as all four tyres were due to be replaced decided to take the plunge a month ago.
Didn't bother with the main dealer as I was told to expect some difficulties with trying to replace the OE spec tyres with something else, so went to local tyre firm who have a good reputation.
Was gob smacked when the tyre firm initially refused to fit the Goodyear's. Eventually haggled (can you believe - given that I was about to spend around £550.00) to sign a disclaimer that should anything happen to me or the car that I would not look to sue the tyre firm and that I had personally chosen these tyres.
The wording on the disclaimer made me laugh "the use of convential tyres over the manufacturer's specified run flat tyre can have an affect on the handling, driveability, comfort and safety of the vehicle".
Having had the convential tyres on the for the last four weeks I do concur with the disclaimer, the handling has improved, driveability has improved, comfort has improved with a not so rock hard ride and I feel far safer on the twisties than I did on the run flats.
I initially read lots of good comments on the switch on the Z4um site and as all four tyres were due to be replaced decided to take the plunge a month ago.
Didn't bother with the main dealer as I was told to expect some difficulties with trying to replace the OE spec tyres with something else, so went to local tyre firm who have a good reputation.
Was gob smacked when the tyre firm initially refused to fit the Goodyear's. Eventually haggled (can you believe - given that I was about to spend around £550.00) to sign a disclaimer that should anything happen to me or the car that I would not look to sue the tyre firm and that I had personally chosen these tyres.
The wording on the disclaimer made me laugh "the use of convential tyres over the manufacturer's specified run flat tyre can have an affect on the handling, driveability, comfort and safety of the vehicle".
Having had the convential tyres on the for the last four weeks I do concur with the disclaimer, the handling has improved, driveability has improved, comfort has improved with a not so rock hard ride and I feel far safer on the twisties than I did on the run flats.
This raises another interesting point where there is a lot of confusion. Oh, and although I work for Goodyear this next bit may sound like I'm defending Bridgestone, but bear with me!
Tyre manufacturers often make an 'OE spec' tyre and an option tyre in most sizes. However, because Run-Flat tyres are specced by BMW for OE, they are rarely made in the 'option' design.
For example, in the Goodyear range most RunOnFlats are based on the non-run flat Eagle NCT5 design. This tyre is an excellent all rounder, with good wet and dry grip, longevity, low rolling resistance (for fuel economy and CO2 reduction) and low noise (for EU new car legislation and driver comfort). In our non-run flat range we make the Eagle F1, described above, which excels in grip but isn't as strong as the NCT5 in some of the other areas above, and is pricier than the NCT5 equivalent.
Therefore, it is really tricky to compare run flat with non-run flat performance unless you are comparing the exact same tread pattern.
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