Outsourcing Discussion
Discussion
Wanted to know people's thoughts on the subject from an outsourcer perspecitve...
What are your experiences with Uk and abroad? Problems you find, advantages with it? What type of work you outsource?
I thinking about outsourcing some administritive work, but Im not entirely sure whether its something worth bothering with.
I know friends who outsource telephone answering services, and she seems to like it. Its quite expensive but they do deliver a good service.
Just wondering what people think about it all...
What are your experiences with Uk and abroad? Problems you find, advantages with it? What type of work you outsource?
I thinking about outsourcing some administritive work, but Im not entirely sure whether its something worth bothering with.
I know friends who outsource telephone answering services, and she seems to like it. Its quite expensive but they do deliver a good service.
Just wondering what people think about it all...
The company that I am currently contracted to have outsourced a major software project and it is nothing but hassle. Any small change takes ages to get through and costs a fortune... added to that the actual development is taking place in Bangalore and they take everything literally, even if the guy that designed it made a small obvious error they still code it. Resulting in a change request, time arguing over who has to pay for it etc.
The amount that we have paid (central government agency) for this what has to be said is a pile of $#ite application we could have done it a lot better, cheaper and quicker with an in house team of developers.
Thats my experience of outsourcing... do it if you want to be over charged and loose control of key areas of your business.
The amount that we have paid (central government agency) for this what has to be said is a pile of $#ite application we could have done it a lot better, cheaper and quicker with an in house team of developers.
Thats my experience of outsourcing... do it if you want to be over charged and loose control of key areas of your business.
n3il123 said:
do it if you want to be over charged and loose control of key areas of your business.
Wow, don't hold back!Outsourcing can work if you find the right partner. I say 'partner' wisely. Try and hook them in to the success of the project by either paying back to back or in a performance bond. That way it is in their interest that you succeed.
One MD of a company we use said "You don't do business with a company, you do business with people". Wise words and he went up a few notches in my estimation.
It all comes down to the relationship you have with them. I dare say having a relationship with a overseas company can be tricky. Going down the road is easier.
My company outsources some of its marketing which has worked quite well. We also act as the source for the IT function for quite a few SME's. It can only be successful if you can form good working relationship. In our situation it also requires some flexibility. We will often give support on things we are not contractually obliged to. In return our customers will buy software, hardware etc from us even though they can buy it cheaper elsewhere.
My experiences are mixed, and come from a Manufacturing environment of a large FMCG.
What is your core business? If you are a Manufacturer, do you want to be an expert in distribution, marketing and IT too? I have a belief that experts should be allowed to perform in their field with strong guidance from the company.
Distribution in my view is expensive to run within a business, and can be performed much more efficiently by a 3rd party who specialises. IT, you need some expertise, but why would you build and support software applications?
Going abroad is a different matter. I have only experienced this through IT outsourcing of technical work and IT support and in my opinion this does not work well. For IT support, you want someone who can pop to your desk and you can talk with face to face. For software development, you need to have specified things so well, that the technical aspect is a relatively small part. The key is around understanding the business and that is difficult with a time gap and no business knowledge.
T-J-K
What is your core business? If you are a Manufacturer, do you want to be an expert in distribution, marketing and IT too? I have a belief that experts should be allowed to perform in their field with strong guidance from the company.
Distribution in my view is expensive to run within a business, and can be performed much more efficiently by a 3rd party who specialises. IT, you need some expertise, but why would you build and support software applications?
Going abroad is a different matter. I have only experienced this through IT outsourcing of technical work and IT support and in my opinion this does not work well. For IT support, you want someone who can pop to your desk and you can talk with face to face. For software development, you need to have specified things so well, that the technical aspect is a relatively small part. The key is around understanding the business and that is difficult with a time gap and no business knowledge.
T-J-K
There are two pretty distinct areas to outsourcing. Large companies taking control of a project and running with it. And then you have more administrative work, simpler smaller scale outsourcing. A lot of peoples experience so far seems to come through large projects.
I was curious also about people who use them for smaller activities perhaps on a regular basis? How they found them etc? Do you find the same problems, of miscommunication etc?
Or I guess another Q, would you get a temp in to do some admin/ research work, or use an outsourcing company? I can see the benefit to each, but based on some of the awful inept temps I have seen lately.. I do wonder.
I was curious also about people who use them for smaller activities perhaps on a regular basis? How they found them etc? Do you find the same problems, of miscommunication etc?
Or I guess another Q, would you get a temp in to do some admin/ research work, or use an outsourcing company? I can see the benefit to each, but based on some of the awful inept temps I have seen lately.. I do wonder.
n3il123 said:
The company that I am currently contracted to have outsourced a major software project and it is nothing but hassle. Any small change takes ages to get through and costs a fortune... added to that the actual development is taking place in Bangalore and they take everything literally, even if the guy that designed it made a small obvious error they still code it. Resulting in a change request, time arguing over who has to pay for it etc.
The amount that we have paid (central government agency) for this what has to be said is a pile of $#ite application we could have done it a lot better, cheaper and quicker with an in house team of developers.
Thats my experience of outsourcing... do it if you want to be over charged and loose control of key areas of your business.
That is everyone's experiencing of outsourcing software development abroad that I'vs spoken to. You need people that are culturally similar, speak idiomatically compatible English and, most importantly, you have a suitable arrangement with. Fixed price contracts breed variation orders breed extra costs.The amount that we have paid (central government agency) for this what has to be said is a pile of $#ite application we could have done it a lot better, cheaper and quicker with an in house team of developers.
Thats my experience of outsourcing... do it if you want to be over charged and loose control of key areas of your business.
Really helps if the end users have a direct line to the developers too. You can achieve that with in an in-house team easily. But you can also achieve it with the right arrangement with the right supplier...and a relationship that doesn't involve phone calls at lousy hours of the morning to someone who doesn't understand what you are saying - and even when they don't they agree and say "yes" because that's the culturally acceptable thing to say. Rather than the more helpful "Eh, what? I've no idea what you mean. Could you explain a bit more?"
That and you can feel good about employing good old fashioned British programmers. Even if they do cost ten times as much an hour that fact that they're NEXT DOOR and you can swear at them over the top of the cubicle is worth it!
Don said:
...someone who doesn't understand what you are saying - and even when they don't they agree and say "yes" because that's the culturally acceptable thing to say.
I know that one I do use overseas guys on occasion and the key is to have someone with a good understanding of both cultures. Who can act as a go between translating the job requirements.
With regards general outsourcing of business functions, I'd argue that using an accountancy firm is a well established form of this and outsourced IT guys can equal a huge saving.
Edited by rpguk on Friday 1st June 17:47
I can only speak from being part of the outsourced company. Hope tis doesn't sound like too much of an advert.
I am a business development consultant and work mainly in the telecoms sector writing software. In the past few years I have found a lot more of my customers are offshoring. Often this leads to a lot of problems described above: poor quality of code, communication problems etc. In the end the total cost of development often exceeds the initial quotes from UK companies like ourselves.
Our company is relatively small (about 200 developers) but have been successfully running, and profitable, for every one of its 28 years. The reason for this is we provide quality software. We can't afford to mess customers around because it could be the end of us. We have been working for many of our customers, including most of the big mobile telcos, for over 10 years in many cases because we do what we say. It helps that out speciality is mission and business critical software which companies are often reluctant to offshore, HLR's, payment systems, in-flight refuelling for example.
If you are looking to outsource one hint I would give it to find a company where your business is important. If they can afford to lose your work they won't take care of you. Make sure you are as important to them as they are to you. Then when you have found a company you trust treat them fairly. It is all about building a relationship and that has to be two-way. Gain their respect and they will give you theirs.
I am a business development consultant and work mainly in the telecoms sector writing software. In the past few years I have found a lot more of my customers are offshoring. Often this leads to a lot of problems described above: poor quality of code, communication problems etc. In the end the total cost of development often exceeds the initial quotes from UK companies like ourselves.
Our company is relatively small (about 200 developers) but have been successfully running, and profitable, for every one of its 28 years. The reason for this is we provide quality software. We can't afford to mess customers around because it could be the end of us. We have been working for many of our customers, including most of the big mobile telcos, for over 10 years in many cases because we do what we say. It helps that out speciality is mission and business critical software which companies are often reluctant to offshore, HLR's, payment systems, in-flight refuelling for example.
If you are looking to outsource one hint I would give it to find a company where your business is important. If they can afford to lose your work they won't take care of you. Make sure you are as important to them as they are to you. Then when you have found a company you trust treat them fairly. It is all about building a relationship and that has to be two-way. Gain their respect and they will give you theirs.
Edited by chaosss on Friday 1st June 21:36
Don said:
That is everyone's experiencing of outsourcing software development abroad that I'vs spoken to. You need people that are culturally similar, speak idiomatically compatible English and, most importantly, you have a suitable arrangement with. Fixed price contracts breed variation orders breed extra costs.
I have come across a couple of successful projects. Both using Russian teams of developers. The team leader in both instances was from the UK. The other thing of note was that as well as a normal written specification there was a formal specificaton using Z notation. The only time I have seen this used outside of a University. V8 EOL - Rich said:
n3il123 said:
do it if you want to be over charged and loose control of key areas of your business.
Wow, don't hold back!Outsourcing can work if you find the right partner. I say 'partner' wisely. Try and hook them in to the success of the project by either paying back to back or in a performance bond. That way it is in their interest that you succeed.
One MD of a company we use said "You don't do business with a company, you do business with people". Wise words and he went up a few notches in my estimation.
It all comes down to the relationship you have with them. I dare say having a relationship with a overseas company can be tricky. Going down the road is easier.
However if you are talking about outsourcing your IT/ marketing/ cleaning department to a local company, where you know that if the poo hits the fan you can get to speak to the MD/ technical head etc then I think that is a good thing. Specialise in what you know, let other people do what they know. Its not always cheaper to outsource in the long run, but it can be easier and less stressful with the right company/ partner
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