The FIA's OWG deliver it's results...
Discussion
I read with interest last night in the current edition of Autosport that the Overtaking Working Group (OWG) setup by the FIA to study the current issues of F1 cars finding it difficult to overtake have finally delivered their verdit.
This group is made up of the best brains from Ferrari, McLaren and Renault and they have had access to a windtunnel in Italy where they have studied not just one, but two F1 scale models to see how the air flow from the rear of one effects the one following.
So guess what the findings were from this extensive look into the issue of overtaking, an exercise that I'm sure did not come cheap...
Wait for it...
Answer to the problem is:
Return to slick tyres
Have a wider front wing
Reduce the rear wing
Reprofile the rear defuser
Remove all winglets and other bodywork furniture
Well done Max. You have spent a lot of money and time to come to the conclusion that most die-hard race fans have been saying for years, and we didn't need a bloody wind tunnel to tell you that!!!!
These changes will come into effect from 2009.
What a shame the OWG did not also say:
Ban refueling
Return to flat bottom chassis
Keep semi-auto boxes, but make the driver use a stick instead of paddles
Remove all the shite off the steering wheels...
Then we really would have something to smile about
This group is made up of the best brains from Ferrari, McLaren and Renault and they have had access to a windtunnel in Italy where they have studied not just one, but two F1 scale models to see how the air flow from the rear of one effects the one following.
So guess what the findings were from this extensive look into the issue of overtaking, an exercise that I'm sure did not come cheap...
Wait for it...
Answer to the problem is:
Return to slick tyres
Have a wider front wing
Reduce the rear wing
Reprofile the rear defuser
Remove all winglets and other bodywork furniture
Well done Max. You have spent a lot of money and time to come to the conclusion that most die-hard race fans have been saying for years, and we didn't need a bloody wind tunnel to tell you that!!!!
These changes will come into effect from 2009.
What a shame the OWG did not also say:
Ban refueling
Return to flat bottom chassis
Keep semi-auto boxes, but make the driver use a stick instead of paddles
Remove all the shite off the steering wheels...
Then we really would have something to smile about
Edited by motormania on Tuesday 11th September 08:48
F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport its where lots of new technology comes from. The answer to making it better isn’t to just go back to the past. We all want to see more overtaking but making the cars back to the same as 70’s 80’s 90’s isn’t progress and that’s want what F1 is about. The designers should have the freedom to develop the cars to be as fast as possible with all the technology they can develop to make them go faster. I.e. Keep traction control, develop stability control & ABS.
At least if they make these changes it will keep cost down their. They would be able to go down to the museum and get the best car for the regs from there.
I do think going back to slicks is good though
At least if they make these changes it will keep cost down their. They would be able to go down to the museum and get the best car for the regs from there.
I do think going back to slicks is good though
well, im stunned, really i am.
i mean GP2 and most other lower formula race series have 'overtaking'. and alot of it is due to the type of car. but mosely could'nt see that as he is a complete t
t.
slicks- yes
less wing- maybe
less body work wings- ok, but rear flip ups are ok and cooling chimneys, they serve their purpose properly.
lower and wide front wing- yes.
flat bottom floor would be good too.
keep all the electronics though. this is 2007, not 1987.
biggest problem though, isnt the cars, well it is, but it isnt.
how are you supposed to overtake the car infront when its pulling away? fastest at the front and slowest at the back= no overtaking.
mechanical failures dont count. so you're stuck.
how about a push to pass button or something like?
i mean GP2 and most other lower formula race series have 'overtaking'. and alot of it is due to the type of car. but mosely could'nt see that as he is a complete t
t. slicks- yes
less wing- maybe
less body work wings- ok, but rear flip ups are ok and cooling chimneys, they serve their purpose properly.
lower and wide front wing- yes.
flat bottom floor would be good too.
keep all the electronics though. this is 2007, not 1987.
biggest problem though, isnt the cars, well it is, but it isnt.
how are you supposed to overtake the car infront when its pulling away? fastest at the front and slowest at the back= no overtaking.
mechanical failures dont count. so you're stuck.
how about a push to pass button or something like?
Whilst F1 is at the pinnacle of automotive design, The current focus is on aerodynamics, which isn't going to help in the long term future of road cars is it.
Getting rid of the aero bits and bobs will help enormously, slicks to help generate more mechanical grip will also help.
Semi-auto boxes have been around so long now, that I don't think getting rid of them would be a good thing. Getting shot of "drivers aids" is necessary though. No ABS, No Traction Control (other than by using the right foot), No Stability control (again other than the driver.)
I'm glad to see they might do something, but I don't like "boost buttons" so I'm glad they've not gone down that route.
F1 isn't all about overtaking for me, the technical challenges I find just as fascinating, so introducing artificial things to make the show better just isn't needed.
Maybe they should ban pit-car radio and let thhe drivers do the strategy, also get shot of this two race engine rule, it drives me nuts when you see the drivers backing off to "preserve" their engines for the next race, rather than going flat out for the win at all times.
Get shot of refuelling as well, then whoever manages the fuel best wins it forces the teams to go after economy as well as spped and that is a benefit that could filter it's way down to road cars.
Mind you a six year old who'd watched a couple of races could have come up with the same proposals as the OWG!
Getting rid of the aero bits and bobs will help enormously, slicks to help generate more mechanical grip will also help.
Semi-auto boxes have been around so long now, that I don't think getting rid of them would be a good thing. Getting shot of "drivers aids" is necessary though. No ABS, No Traction Control (other than by using the right foot), No Stability control (again other than the driver.)
I'm glad to see they might do something, but I don't like "boost buttons" so I'm glad they've not gone down that route.
F1 isn't all about overtaking for me, the technical challenges I find just as fascinating, so introducing artificial things to make the show better just isn't needed.
Maybe they should ban pit-car radio and let thhe drivers do the strategy, also get shot of this two race engine rule, it drives me nuts when you see the drivers backing off to "preserve" their engines for the next race, rather than going flat out for the win at all times.
Get shot of refuelling as well, then whoever manages the fuel best wins it forces the teams to go after economy as well as spped and that is a benefit that could filter it's way down to road cars.
Mind you a six year old who'd watched a couple of races could have come up with the same proposals as the OWG!
I don't agree with allowing TC, ABS, stability control etc in F1. Although these control systems have a very important part to play in the safety of modern road cars, they take away driver control and make the whole driving experience more sterile. Which is not what racing is all about. So I think the 2008 regs are a step in the right direction from this point of view. The argument that F1 brings new technology to the road is outdated and I'm not really convinced it ever has anyway. Sponsors will always make these associations, but it rarely happens in practice. It's far more likely to be the other way round.
But I don't mind electronic paddle shift gearboxes, as long as they're not fully automatic. I don't see any point in making drivers struggle with a crappy old linkage operated gearshift.
But I don't mind electronic paddle shift gearboxes, as long as they're not fully automatic. I don't see any point in making drivers struggle with a crappy old linkage operated gearshift.
motormania said:
Well done Max. You have spent a lot of money and time to come to the conclusion that most die-hard race fans have been saying for years, and we didn't need a bloody wind tunnel to tell you that!!!!
Ah yes, hindsight.. great isn't it!Of course fans have been sprouting this for years but without any scientific basis at all. It's all based on heresay, chinese whispers and believing other people's opinions to be correct.
The FIA have now actually backed it up, which gives it further merit to be introduced.
I welcome the changes, I just dislike 'know it all' fans who don't
IforB said:
Getting rid of the aero bits and bobs will help enormously, slicks to help generate more mechanical grip will also help...
...Getting shot of "drivers aids" is necessary though. No ABS, No Traction Control...
...I don't like "boost buttons" so I'm glad they've not gone down that route.
...also get shot of this two race engine rule, it drives me nuts when you see the drivers backing off to "preserve" their engines for the next race, rather than going flat out for the win at all times.
Get shot of refuelling as well...
Agreed. Especially the two race engine rule. I can't see the likes of Gilles Villeneuve having put up with that - the idea of backing off when there was still a race to be won would've seemed alien to many of the great drivers of yesteryear....Getting shot of "drivers aids" is necessary though. No ABS, No Traction Control...
...I don't like "boost buttons" so I'm glad they've not gone down that route.
...also get shot of this two race engine rule, it drives me nuts when you see the drivers backing off to "preserve" their engines for the next race, rather than going flat out for the win at all times.
Get shot of refuelling as well...
Stuismyname said:
Agreed. Especially the two race engine rule. I can't see the likes of Gilles Villeneuve having put up with that - the idea of backing off when there was still a race to be won would've seemed alien to many of the great drivers of yesteryear.
Unlike the greats of Senna, Prost, Piquet who all had to do that during the turbo era..zac510 said:
motormania said:
Well done Max. You have spent a lot of money and time to come to the conclusion that most die-hard race fans have been saying for years, and we didn't need a bloody wind tunnel to tell you that!!!!
Ah yes, hindsight.. great isn't it!Of course fans have been sprouting this for years but without any scientific basis at all. It's all based on heresay, chinese whispers and believing other people's opinions to be correct.
The FIA have now actually backed it up, which gives it further merit to be introduced.
I welcome the changes, I just dislike 'know it all' fans who don't
zac510 said:
Stuismyname said:
Agreed. Especially the two race engine rule. I can't see the likes of Gilles Villeneuve having put up with that - the idea of backing off when there was still a race to be won would've seemed alien to many of the great drivers of yesteryear.
Unlike the greats of Senna, Prost, Piquet who all had to do that during the turbo era..
But I stand by the principle - there's no reason to enforce that engines last two races when they don't need to, why not remove that as a restriction and possible inhibitor to a race to the flag, I'd prefer if the drivers were simply thinking about how to catch and pass the guy in front, rather than whether they were on the correct engine management setting to preserve the engine until the following weekend?
Hamilton was able to pass Kimi as it was a very low downforce setup. So he was able to get past. Try that on a twisty high downforce circuit and he'd have got nowhere near.
During the turbo era the drivers had to manage their engines to stop them blowing to bits or using too much fuel. Mind you I don't remember those days, as far as I'm aware there were no rules that meant they had to use engines more than once.
As for the comments that the fans don't know what they are talking about, how about this. How come the fans have been banging on about this for years without any data. This was all available to the FIA and teams, why did no-one think about it before?
I don't need to be a motorsport "professional" to be able to tell what is killing F1, it's the arrogance of those involved thinking they know best and ignoring the millions of fans who if they weren't there would cause the sport to disintegrate.
During the turbo era the drivers had to manage their engines to stop them blowing to bits or using too much fuel. Mind you I don't remember those days, as far as I'm aware there were no rules that meant they had to use engines more than once.
As for the comments that the fans don't know what they are talking about, how about this. How come the fans have been banging on about this for years without any data. This was all available to the FIA and teams, why did no-one think about it before?
I don't need to be a motorsport "professional" to be able to tell what is killing F1, it's the arrogance of those involved thinking they know best and ignoring the millions of fans who if they weren't there would cause the sport to disintegrate.
Edited by IforB on Tuesday 11th September 11:27
I also think the 2 engine rule should be abolished as well. It seems completely pointless and does just preventing racing drivers from racing. What was the reason it was first introduced anyway, they must have put some positive spin on it?
Also how would you stop refueling as surely their fuel tanks would have to be so much bigger to hold fuel for the rest of the race, or are they already capable of holding fuel for the whole race?
I like the idea of going back to slicks, however I can't see how wider front wings or reduced rear wings can help (don't have any technical knowledge in that area at all). All I can see is that they will both have less down force so both will be going x% faster resulting in still not being able to overtake.
Also how would you stop refueling as surely their fuel tanks would have to be so much bigger to hold fuel for the rest of the race, or are they already capable of holding fuel for the whole race?
I like the idea of going back to slicks, however I can't see how wider front wings or reduced rear wings can help (don't have any technical knowledge in that area at all). All I can see is that they will both have less down force so both will be going x% faster resulting in still not being able to overtake.
mikey_p said:
I also think the 2 engine rule should be abolished as well. It seems completely pointless and does just preventing racing drivers from racing. What was the reason it was first introduced anyway, they must have put some positive spin on it?
Also how would you stop refueling as surely their fuel tanks would have to be so much bigger to hold fuel for the rest of the race, or are they already capable of holding fuel for the whole race?
I like the idea of going back to slicks, however I can't see how wider front wings or reduced rear wings can help (don't have any technical knowledge in that area at all). All I can see is that they will both have less down force so both will be going x% faster resulting in still not being able to overtake.
Fuel tanks are currently sized to allow a one stop strategy at Monza. Cars cannot go a full race distance these days without stopping.Also how would you stop refueling as surely their fuel tanks would have to be so much bigger to hold fuel for the rest of the race, or are they already capable of holding fuel for the whole race?
I like the idea of going back to slicks, however I can't see how wider front wings or reduced rear wings can help (don't have any technical knowledge in that area at all). All I can see is that they will both have less down force so both will be going x% faster resulting in still not being able to overtake.
zac510 said:
motormania said:
Well done Max. You have spent a lot of money and time to come to the conclusion that most die-hard race fans have been saying for years, and we didn't need a bloody wind tunnel to tell you that!!!!
Ah yes, hindsight.. great isn't it!Of course fans have been sprouting this for years but without any scientific basis at all. It's all based on heresay, chinese whispers and believing other people's opinions to be correct.
The FIA have now actually backed it up, which gives it further merit to be introduced.
I welcome the changes, I just dislike 'know it all' fans who don't
As a 'know it all fan' as you say - which I am not! I have been watching F1 for over 30 years and have been reading Autosport (the F1 bible) for about 20 years. I DO NOT know it all, but I do read, digest and understand the majority of what is going on.
Your comments about chinese whispers etc etc... is wide of the mark. Are you therefore saying that drivers and technical engineers involved with F1 now and in the past are all 'know it all' fans too? I say that because many high profile people in the sport have made these kind of comments in the past when asked for their opinion on how to improve 'the F1 show'.
What I dislike more is those who do not allow 'the fans' to express an opinion, whether it be right or wrong...
Edited by motormania on Tuesday 11th September 12:51
If they don't want to drop the two race engine rule, how about start awarding a point for fastest lap as that would at least keep the front running teams interested in pushing to the end.
Maybe if that didnt work because they blitz the first couple of stints on softer tyres, enforce it so the point is only awarded for the fastest lap in the last 20 laps of the race
Maybe if that didnt work because they blitz the first couple of stints on softer tyres, enforce it so the point is only awarded for the fastest lap in the last 20 laps of the race
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