24hr regulation proposals

[2priestsferrari]

Following on from the other thread perhaps this is the time to offer the EERC some constructive comments with how the 24hr regulations might go for 2008.

At least that way we tried.

My suggestion would be.

3 classes. Class 1 would be up to 5000cc with turbos at a multiple of 1.4 with a minimum weight of 1200kgs. Fuel 80 litres.

Class 2 would be up to 2000cc (turbo 1.4) minimum weight of 1000kgs. Fuel 120 litres.

Class 3 would be up to 1600cc (turbo 1.4) minimum weight 600kgs. Fuel 80 litres.

PLUS a special efficiency trophy which will go to the car that travels furthest on the least fuel.

I'd not have any separation for standard type cars because actually these kind of cars are entered by people who what the challenge of actually taking part and know from the outset that they can not win outright but they will perhaps be able to challenge for the efficiency trophy.

[Scuffers]

• crying*

so, that's the Mosler's, Jaguar, Marcos out for startes then!

Top stuff...

[2priestsferrari]

Scuffers said:

*crying*

so, that's the Mosler's, Jaguar, Marcos out for startes then!

Top stuff...

Why?? You could run a Mosler with a 5 litre V8, same for Marcos who actually do run 5 litre V8's in the Mantis - of which I believe the bulk of the entry for the 24hrs is made.

Even if you take your theory to the extreme and nobody was willing to change I think we would loose 3 Moslers, 1 Jag and 1 Marcos which actually got pitched out because of noise... So 5 cars.

Do me a favour - try engaging your brain before taking a pop. Oh and also it might be constructive if you actually said something of your ideas instead of just moaning..

[Steve Britcar]

2priests - this is a totally personal view, and not the official EERC line........

If you want to set the regulations for a 24 hr race, then go and run your own one. Then you'll find out what it really takes to run a motor race.

Otherwise, butt out, and let James Tucker run it.

[steil]

Hmm, 1.6 cars vs 5.0l ones - the differentials between the 968 & the Z4 was big enough without expanding upon it!

[steaming2uk]

Come on own up, who prodded the anonymous troll again?

[2priestsferrari]

Steve Britcar said:

2priests - this is a totally personal view, and not the official EERC line........

If you want to set the regulations for a 24 hr race, then go and run your own one. Then you'll find out what it really takes to run a motor race.

Otherwise, butt out, and let James Tucker run it.

You are entitled to the view of course however I'm not sure I or anyone else has actually said they wanted to run things.

Is there anything wrong in trying to improve things?

JT totally upset the Duller team and many others with his complete failure to stick to his own regulations. Perhaps you or the EERC could explain the change of classes with days of the event - including the change in fuel capacity which affected peoples stratagies.

Its OK to bury the head in the sand I suppose because its his/EERC's money, but it would be sad if it went to the wall just because of a subborn attitude.

After all that attitude didn't do him or the club any favours with the championship which failed to attract the season long entry due to the insistance of a confused registration and race pick 'n mix that we had.

[2priestsferrari]

steil said:

Hmm, 1.6 cars vs 5.0l ones - the differentials between the 968 & the Z4 was big enough without expanding upon it!

1600cc and 600kgs... Think about it..

[Scuffers]

2priestsferrari said:

steil said:

Hmm, 1.6 cars vs 5.0l ones - the differentials between the 968 & the Z4 was big enough without expanding upon it!

1600cc and 600kgs... Think about it..

120L of fuel is ~91Kg's, think about it.....

[Henry-F]

2priestsferrari said:

Following on from the other thread perhaps this is the time to offer the EERC some constructive comments with how the 24hr regulations might go for 2008.

At least that way we tried.

My suggestion would be.

3 classes. Class 1 would be up to 5000cc with turbos at a multiple of 1.4 with a minimum weight of 1200kgs. Fuel 80 litres.

Class 2 would be up to 2000cc (turbo 1.4) minimum weight of 1000kgs. Fuel 120 litres.

Class 3 would be up to 1600cc (turbo 1.4) minimum weight 600kgs. Fuel 80 litres.

PLUS a special efficiency trophy which will go to the car that travels furthest on the least fuel.

I'd not have any separation for standard type cars because actually these kind of cars are entered by people who what the challenge of actually taking part and know from the outset that they can not win outright but they will perhaps be able to challenge for the efficiency trophy.

Wow, I`m err..... well, lost for words. Is it April already ?

The group thanks you for your valuable input.

Henry

[2priestsferrari]

Scuffers said:

2priestsferrari said:

steil said:

Hmm, 1.6 cars vs 5.0l ones - the differentials between the 968 & the Z4 was big enough without expanding upon it!

1600cc and 600kgs... Think about it..

120L of fuel is ~91Kg's, think about it.....

Except that class has 80L....Can you read?

OK so I'm guessing that everyone thinks the EERC regs are broadly right as nobody wants to give any suggestions. In which case you have what you have and the only way to beat Duller will be to bring equally strong car and drivers...

Edited by 2priestsferrari on Thursday 20th September 09:56

[935]

"OK so I'm guessing that everyone thinks the EERC regs are broadly right as nobody wants to give any suggestions. In which case you have what you have and the only way to beat Duller will be to bring equally strong car and drivers..."

Which in my opinion is correct!!!! All I will reiterate is - please EERC write the regs, stick by them and police them. Then at least everbody knows what they are up against. As someone said before me the 24 hour event is special in every way. People enter it because they want to be part of it. Only a few enter with a real chance of winning.
Spectators definatley like to see the big cars racing around at high speed. If the future of the 24 hour event is to be like Spa or Nurburgring thewn the event needs the big cars. If the event wants to stay small and for the club racer then simply dont accept their entries.

Cheers,

Richard.

[Simon Leith]

So 2Priests, our 3.2 litre BMW M3 would be in the same class as the 5 litre cars? Also, a 2.5 litre car would be up against them. Now, I know we would have better fuel economy etc. but seriously.....that's a bit of a joke !!!

I am not saying the EERC's regs are right or wrong. I do agree with 935 in that whatever the regs are need to be stuck to. But, to be honest, I would rather stick with James' regs than yours my dear. There are more people wanting to win their class than you think.....us being one of them.

Also, if you throw enough money at a 5 litre engine I am pretty sure you will get 600BHP + out of it. You would be pitching that against a 300 BHP Beemer in the same class!????

The only fair way to run classes is the way the EERC is trying to do it which is power to weight.

Not being funny, but you can probably tell from the responses that your idea isn't really going down well! Or was the idea to stir up another argument like with all your other comments? You like a good don't you!??

Do you race in Britcar or is that a secret as well?

[2priestsferrari]

Simon Leith said:

So 2Priests, our 3.2 litre BMW M3 would be in the same class as the 5 litre cars? Also, a 2.5 litre car would be up against them. Now, I know we would have better fuel economy etc. but seriously.....that's a bit of a joke !!!

Look I don't want to be funny but people just don't think before writing this stuff. That 3.2 BMW motor...would that be the same kind of thing in the Duller Z4M that has won the last two 24hrs?? I think it is. The same one that people might reckon has 450bhp?? I think it is.

The point is whilst I agree that would be a fairly extreme 3.2 motor it does make a point that you have to draw the line somewhere.

Simon Leith said:

I am not saying the EERC's regs are right or wrong. I do agree with 935 in that whatever the regs are need to be stuck to. But, to be honest, I would rather stick with James' regs than yours my dear. There are more people wanting to win their class than you think.....us being one of them.

Winning class is fine, but actually if the regulations had been followed then the Z4M may well have been in your very class. At somepoint there has to be recognition that when the last two years the race has been pretty much a one horse race for the outright win something needs to change to make the event more exciting for the people watching. I accept that not everyone is going to be able to pitch up with a Z4M and a bunch of pro drivers, so you either have to limit the fuel to such a degree or ban these kind of cars.

Simon Leith said:

Also, if you throw enough money at a 5 litre engine I am pretty sure you will get 600BHP + out of it. You would be pitching that against a 300 BHP Beemer in the same class!????

Throw enough money at a 3.2 BMW motor and it wins..see Duller Z4M.

Simon Leith said:

The only fair way to run classes is the way the EERC is trying to do it which is power to weight.

I wouldn't disagree so why, when the regulations of the 24hrs are also based on power to weight, was there no power loggers? Without which the whole basis of the classes were done finger in the air.

Simon Leith said:

Not being funny, but you can probably tell from the responses that your idea isn't really going down well! Or was the idea to stir up another argument like with all your other comments? You like a good don't you!??

Look its fine if people don't agree but I think it is healthy to at least have the debate and if we all end up saying everything is rosey then great. What I don't understand is the way that people don't want to talk, don't want to enter into things and actually there were many many people who complained about the Z4M and its initial class but not one person has given reason why it was moved.

I think what this perhaps has highlighted is that currently we don't have any regulation. We might have regulations but no regulation of them.

Edited by 2priestsferrari on Thursday 20th September 15:16

[Henry-F]

935 said:

All I will reiterate is - please EERC write the regs, stick by them and police them. Then at least everbody knows what they are up against.

Absolutely correct. As they stand in the regs I don`t think the class structure is a million miles out. The problem is that at the moment policing is a little on the loose side meaning that many of the class 1 cars are actually running GT Cup power to weight and GT cup car GT3 power to weight. Now at the moment a great deal of the field just accept this status quo and build their cars accordingly penalising the cars that play by the rules.

The moral dilemma is do you join in, cheat a little to make your car competitive or do you build to the rules and watch as cars pull past you on the straight bits. The easiest solution, and the cheapest from a competitor`s point of view is to strictly enforce a simple power to weight ratio. Take cars away for power testing, use spy in the cab devices but make sure everyone knows you mean business and exclude people found to be cheating (letting the rest of the grid know your findings at the same time).

There will always be those who will find a way past the checks, but the vast majority of people cheating at the moment only do it because everyone else does, they don`t actually like doing it and so will be more than happy to run within the rules, (it`ll save them the cost of buying in extra horse power an leave more money for beer as well!).

I`d love to get back into Britcar but will only do so when I know the policing is in place.

James is the big ideas man, he puts on the show, he`s not so hot on the engineering side of things (by his own admission). He`s started to try and sort things out, seems to be listening, talks of improvements in the future and hopefully he`ll come up with the goods. I`d love to see him with a knowledgeable technical scrutineer by his side and between them having the confidence to stand firm and enforce their rules. At the moment I feel for James as he`s running a business and probably worries that if he comes down hard on teams who are breaking the rules they may leave the series taking their money with them. I think he would actually find more people coming into the series knowing that it`s a level playing field and they have a chance of winning (be it overall or class).

Simple power to weight ratios for each class. Minimum weights for each class. If you want to give everyone a chance for outright victory a fuel limit for longer races - and enforce them - no 40 litre dump churns 25 litre only !!

Henry

PS still think the 24 hour was a hoot !

[Henry-F]

2priestsferrari said:

Simon Leith said:

So 2Priests, our 3.2 litre BMW M3 would be in the same class as the 5 litre cars? Also, a 2.5 litre car would be up against them. Now, I know we would have better fuel economy etc. but seriously.....that's a bit of a joke !!!

Look I don't want to be funny but people just don't think before writing this stuff. That 3.2 BMW motor...would that be the same kind of thing in the Duller Z4M that has won the last two 24hrs?? I think it is. The same one that people might reckon has 450bhp?? I think it is.

The point is whilst I agree that would be a fairly extreme 3.2 motor it does make a point that you have to draw the line somewhere.

But Britcar shouldn`t require people to spend tens of thousand of pounds extracting incredible power from their engines, you should be able to compete in a reliable, affordable car. If you want to push the boundaries give the DTM a call. Sensible rules provide close racing and keep costs down.

Henry

Edited by Henry-F on Thursday 20th September 15:27

[2priestsferrari]

Henry-F said:

But Britcar shouldn`t require people to spend tens of thousand of pounds extracting incredible power from their engines, you should be able to compete in a reliable, affordable car. If you want to push the boundaries give the DTM a call. Sensible rules provide close racing and keep costs down.

Henry

Edited by Henry-F on Thursday 20th September 15:27

I agree. But right now that is exactly what anyone wanting to do well is going to have to do. I think one way of doing the 24hrs a favour is to say that entries here have to have done 2 or 3 Britcar meetings as well which would perhaps boost the Britcar grid and also mean that the class is better worked.

On the cheating side you meantion in the other thread once again I agree, however there will always be losers simply because there will always be some in the bottom end of one catagory and the top of another.

Those on the margins will always find themselves more or less competitive through shear chance which is why I don't believe that a power/weight thing is the best way forward - quite apart from the dodgy results that power logger gave (which of course need the Cd of the car and how many have had their cars in a wind tunnel lately??)

[Simon Leith]

OK - I can take a 3.2 litre engine, spend my entire year's budget developing it to 500BHP and then not be able to afford to race. With (no) respect 2Priests, you ARE a joke!

You NEVER really see anyone else's view and I really think, in the nicest possible way, that you don't 'get' what Britcar has been sold as! I [obviously] don't know who you are but most people in britcar don't have Duller budgets...never have, never will do!

If I had £1,000,000 budget I could get 700 BHP out of a 5 litre engine, map it to max fuel efficency, pay a few touring car or WTCC drivers to race it and win. That is NOT what Britcar is about! Or maybe it is? I am not sure any more.

The class system has to be fair and policed. Putting 2.5 litre engines with low budget (yes they do exist) and 5 litre engines with unlimited budget in the same class is rediculous....especially from a man who is clearly the engineering and strategy equivilent of the STIG! Potentially, you would be pitching 200BHP against 700BHP in the same class. I would NOT race under those circumstances as I am there to win (or at least stand a chance) and not just to make up the numbers. Sorry mate, you're wrong on this one!

So, are you going to answer the question? What series/class do you actually race in? :0)

[Henry-F]

2priestsferrari said:

I think one way of doing the 24hrs a favour is to say that entries here have to have done 2 or 3 Britcar meetings as well which would perhaps boost the Britcar grid and also mean that the class is better worked.

On the cheating side you meantion in the other thread once again I agree, however there will always be losers simply because there will always be some in the bottom end of one catagory and the top of another.

Those on the margins will always find themselves more or less competitive through shear chance which is why I don't believe that a power/weight thing is the best way forward - quite apart from the dodgy results that power logger gave (which of course need the Cd of the car and how many have had their cars in a wind tunnel lately??)

I agree with your idea of people having to do at least a round of the Britcar championship to race in the 24 hour race, possibly 2 or 3 rounds over the past 2 years. That way the spirit of Britcar will not be diluted come the 24 hour race, although I think the 24 hour race is a much more international event than the championship.

As to the rest of your comments I disagree. Yes, there will always be cars closer to their class limits than others but other than 1 make championships that`s the way it has to be.

Power to weight is extremely easy to police, you weigh cars as they finish with their driver (forget all this bollox about draining fuel, theoretical driver weight etc - just keep it simple). You take cars away for power tests as and when required. This could be supplemented by spy in the cab devices if they can be proved to work. It also totally takes away the need to spend fortunes finding power and blowing up engines, in fact there may be cars that actually need to run de-tuned engines and enjoy longevity as a result !

Your engine capacity idea can only cost people starship money, people with the most money will find ways of extracting power using F1 as a goal !

I admire you for sparking debate but think you need to be able to sit on the fence and see reason to gain respect from other contributors.

Henry

[Simon Leith]

Wot he said!