Another F1 scenario...

[GavinPearson]

What would happen if the majority of F1 teams just withdrew their entries for the 2008 season?

I'm interested in knowing the sanctions that would be applied, whether deposits would be returned, and can they regain membership of the Formula One Constructors Association?

[flemke]

GavinPearson said:

What would happen if the majority of F1 teams just withdrew their entries for the 2008 season?

I'm interested in knowing the sanctions that would be applied, whether deposits would be returned, and can they regain membership of the Formula One Constructors Association?

Gavin,

I'm guessing that you're asking, "How would the rulebook be applied to such actions?"
In practice, as we saw recently, the FIA does whatever it feels like doing, and in a practical sense that can hardly be challenged.

Were you thinking that the teams might really have a reason to withdraw, or was your question purely hypothetical?

[castrolcraig]

good question, could the same be said about motogp if the currently proposed motogp rules regarding the single tyre rule come to fruition

what could the penaltys be say if honda decide that they dont want to run on a single tyre rule??

[Mr_Thyroid]

castrolcraig said:

good question, could the same be said about motogp if the currently proposed motogp rules regarding the single tyre rule come to fruition

what could the penaltys be say if honda decide that they dont want to run on a single tyre rule??

Now that's something I'd like to see, motorised unicycle racing.

[Baldylocks]

Mr_Thyroid said:

castrolcraig said:

good question, could the same be said about motogp if the currently proposed motogp rules regarding the single tyre rule come to fruition

what could the penaltys be say if honda decide that they dont want to run on a single tyre rule??

Now that's something I'd like to see, motorised unicycle racing.

[GavinPearson]

flemke said:

GavinPearson said:

What would happen if the majority of F1 teams just withdrew their entries for the 2008 season?

I'm interested in knowing the sanctions that would be applied, whether deposits would be returned, and can they regain membership of the Formula One Constructors Association?

Gavin,

I'm guessing that you're asking, "How would the rulebook be applied to such actions?"
In practice, as we saw recently, the FIA does whatever it feels like doing, and in a practical sense that can hardly be challenged.

Were you thinking that the teams might really have a reason to withdraw, or was your question purely hypothetical?

It's a hypothetical question and your guess is correct - what would or could the FIA do?

We know that when a new team wants to join F1 they need to deposit a sum of money, so do they get their deposit back?

If all of the teams except Ferrari withdrew, then set up their own series called Formula Premier or something equally unimaginative and went to 'other' circuits - for example Brands instead of Silverstone, then this would annihilate F1 overnight.

So would this even be possible and what could the FIA do?

[andyps]

That is what the manufacturers tried to do with the GPMA which may have come into effect from the end of the current Concorde agreement. Unfortunately the FIA struck a deal with Ferrari which effectively made these plans difficult to implement. I guess there is soemthing included in the Concorde agreement which would state what the penalties might be, but as I am not a team owner I have no idea what they are! I do seem to remember that there was some potential sanction for Arrows when they were in the death throws and couldn't afford to race. They turned up and drove one very slow lap in qualifying to meet the requirements and avoid a fine, or retain their place or something similar. Whatever the reason it was to avoid the consequences of not taking part.

[LongQ]

I have spent quite a bit of this evening ready GOrdon Kirby;s recent writing. Every single one so far has been interesting.

In the general context of open wheel racing alternatives and working without the FIA this article makes some interesting points.

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/thew...

In particular the paragraph related to the US CART championship and its attempts to become international.

To quote Kirby:

"There are two other aspects to Champ Car's European intentions. First is the issue of dealing with the FIA which Champ Car already has discovered is less easy than imagined, particularly when your key people are deeply naive about the matter. But by going to Europe, Champ Car is putting a major component of its plans for growth in the hands of the FIA and many people who have been around the sport for years believe this is an extremely precarious position in which to place oneself."

My apologies to Gordon Kirby for quoting him unauthorised but I do so mainly to encourage people to read the rest of his articles. He's been around a long time.

[flemke]

GavinPearson said:

flemke said:

GavinPearson said:

What would happen if the majority of F1 teams just withdrew their entries for the 2008 season?

I'm interested in knowing the sanctions that would be applied, whether deposits would be returned, and can they regain membership of the Formula One Constructors Association?

Gavin,

I'm guessing that you're asking, "How would the rulebook be applied to such actions?"
In practice, as we saw recently, the FIA does whatever it feels like doing, and in a practical sense that can hardly be challenged.

Were you thinking that the teams might really have a reason to withdraw, or was your question purely hypothetical?

It's a hypothetical question and your guess is correct - what would or could the FIA do?

We know that when a new team wants to join F1 they need to deposit a sum of money, so do they get their deposit back?

If all of the teams except Ferrari withdrew, then set up their own series called Formula Premier or something equally unimaginative and went to 'other' circuits - for example Brands instead of Silverstone, then this would annihilate F1 overnight.

So would this even be possible and what could the FIA do?

Gavin,

What you are describing is just what the GPMA was meant to do.
Its members - Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, BMW, Renault, and Fiat (before the weasels sneaked off to do their deal with Max and Bernie) - should have had amongst them enough clout and nous to find a way to get it done, within the constraints of reality. Alas, if there was a way, they could not find it.
As I mentioned above, I think, there were all these obstacles to starting out with credibility for the series. Without credibility from the start, you will struggle ever to achieve it. Such is the power of the network effect that the FIA enjoys.
A big part of the problem comes from the risk of losing sponsors. Brands is a beautiful racetrack, but it could not begin to accomodate the traffic that a British GP would generate. It would need huge investment just to build a good enough pit complex to accomodate 12 teams, maybe 80 transporters, all the hospitality centres, the media, etc. You're not going to wine and dine the CEOs of multinationals on Jonathan Palmer's burgers. This thing is such a big show everywhere, and there is a limit to the number of places extant in the world that can bring a big show off.
So many of the best places to build racetracks, close to population centres, have already been taken. Planning permission near a large audience is very difficult to obtain, unless you want the whole series in the Third World. Magny Cours is a pretty nice racetrack with good facilities, in a beautiful part of the world, yet they struggle to interest either paying customers or the teams themselves.
Not that long ago Bernie's people looked at Brands as an alternative to Silverstone, as part of their anti-BRDC efforts, and they concluded that it was nowhere near being fit for that purpose.

I myself doubt that it would annihilate F1 overnight. I wish that it could do, as this was plainly the GPMA's ambition, but I can't see it.
At the first Chinese GP a few years ago, the grandstands were a sea of red - as in Ferrari red, not Mao red. For anyone who knows little or nothing about racing - in other words, the vast majority of the market to which the sponsors want to appeal - Ferrari is the default choice.
How do you compete with a series that claims to be the premier racing formula, but that lacks Ferrari and that cannot be called "F1"? Will you ever get enough traction (no pun intended) to bring it off? Five of the world's biggest, most successful carmakers thought not.
As I said above, it would be the Champ Car/IRL bifurcation on a global scale, and we see how successful that's been!


As regards the deposit required by the CA (is it $46M or something like that?), it serves as a bond to prove to the other teams that you are serious and that you have the financial resources to run with them. IINM, that initial deposit is returned to a team gradually over time, as its longevity in the formula is deemed to offer alternative evidence of its resources and staying power.

[StevieBee]

From a financial perspective, the FIA would be the least of the team’s worries.

FOM own the broadcast rights and a subsidiary company owns the trackside sponsor rights. These are contracted out in advance on multi-year, multi-million $ contracts.

Were the teams to pull out, then there would be nothing to broadcast and nothing to sponsor and so, FOM would be in breach and be sued who in turn would sue the teams – even if a new series was to emerge. It wouldn’t be Formula 1.

[GavinPearson]

Thanks for the viewpoints. While a walkout en-masse may not be possible, I think there is a very real possibility that Renault could pull out, given that Ghosn inferred that it suited Renault to be in F1 while they were a top ranked team, but now that they aren't......... what happens if he folds the operation?

Then would happen if every other CEO / purse string holder felt the same way?

[ELAN+2]

GavinPearson said:

Thanks for the viewpoints. While a walkout en-masse may not be possible, I think there is a very real possibility that Renault could pull out, given that Ghosn inferred that it suited Renault to be in F1 while they were a top ranked team, but now that they aren't......... what happens if he folds the operation?

Then would happen if every other CEO / purse string holder felt the same way?

This has always been the concern with motorsport at all levels, without the privateer teams that Max seems to penalise at every turn, the foundation/basis of motorsport would collapse. Hopefully with the 'customer car' teams coming on board in the future the sport should be less dependant on the car makers. I say should, however there could be an engine supply issue as Ilmor, I believe, are the only bespoke engine manufacturer now (unless Norbert has bought them?) with Cosworth withdrawing from the sport, should several car manufacturers bail out.
If a couple of Car Manufacturers pulled the plug on F1...say Toyota and Renault 8 cars would be affected unless they agreed to continue to supply engines....In the past this has seen engine development dwindle on these units and thier competitiveness tail off. The Independants like Williams and Mclaren have seen the manufacurers come and go over the years and are still racing.

Personally I believe the sport would be better without the Car manufacturers, however money speaks and Max and co seem to be very attentive when it comes to big lumps of money......

[Conian]

Mr_Thyroid said:

castrolcraig said:

good question, could the same be said about motogp if the currently proposed motogp rules regarding the single tyre rule come to fruition

what could the penaltys be say if honda decide that they dont want to run on a single tyre rule??

Now that's something I'd like to see, motorised unicycle racing.

hahahaha superb

No one will pull out of Moto GP if it goes to 1 make of tire. The Dunlop riders would welcome the news Hey lads we can be competitive in the dry now woo hoo!

[flemke]

ELAN+2 said:

...Ilmor, I believe, are the only bespoke engine manufacturer now (unless Norbert has bought them?)

Ilmor were purchased by Mercedes about two years ago.

[deevlash]

Brands deals with the WSB rounds quite well and its a far better attended even thatn the F1 gp, atleast it was in the days of Foggy. Although 130,000 motorbikes would admittedly take up a lot less space than cars. Bugger, we're stuck with that dull airfield arent we?