Esoteric employment scenario
Discussion
The small company I work for (and have done so for 3 years) is based in Reading.
Last Decemember I moved to Edinburgh and continued to work for them but from home, with a flight down to the office once a week (including an overnight stay in a local hotel), paid for directly by the company (although I paid for airport carpark, trains from Heathrow etc that were then reimbursed via expenses).
The cumulative costs of this weren't really appreciated at the time this arrangement was agreed and it was recently decided to cut back on said office visits. This week would have been the first I wasn't due to go down. However, I got a phonecall last night (10:30 or so) saying I needed to go down due to a particular project and I was booked on a flight today. Pain in the arse, but no real problem.
However, I missed the flight as I overslept - entirely my own fault, no bones about that.
I have since received an email from the director saying that today's office schedule had to be rearranged due to my non-attendance (fine), the project I'm working on is costing too much (doesn't cost anything except my time and no other work has suffered because of it), maintaining my expenses is no longer cost effective and has placed additional cost pressures on running the business.
Therefore he would like me to return to being office based in Reading - the company will pay relocation expenses.
Thing is...I do not want to move. And certainly not back to Reading - I was inordinately glad to get out of the place nearly a year ago and I'm very happy here in Edinburgh. I also enjoy the work I do.
There's two kickers to this though
The director in question, is my old man. It's a family business. I know people think they are indispensible etc but the business genuinely will suffer, at least in the short term, if I leave. nd I don't want that to happen if I can avoid it.
I have no written contract - at least, I certainly never signed anything. We just never got around to sorting one out when I joined 3 years ago and therefore nothing was amended to include the teleworking.
Bit of a vague question this, I realise, but...any thoughts?
Last Decemember I moved to Edinburgh and continued to work for them but from home, with a flight down to the office once a week (including an overnight stay in a local hotel), paid for directly by the company (although I paid for airport carpark, trains from Heathrow etc that were then reimbursed via expenses).
The cumulative costs of this weren't really appreciated at the time this arrangement was agreed and it was recently decided to cut back on said office visits. This week would have been the first I wasn't due to go down. However, I got a phonecall last night (10:30 or so) saying I needed to go down due to a particular project and I was booked on a flight today. Pain in the arse, but no real problem.
However, I missed the flight as I overslept - entirely my own fault, no bones about that.
I have since received an email from the director saying that today's office schedule had to be rearranged due to my non-attendance (fine), the project I'm working on is costing too much (doesn't cost anything except my time and no other work has suffered because of it), maintaining my expenses is no longer cost effective and has placed additional cost pressures on running the business.
Therefore he would like me to return to being office based in Reading - the company will pay relocation expenses.
Thing is...I do not want to move. And certainly not back to Reading - I was inordinately glad to get out of the place nearly a year ago and I'm very happy here in Edinburgh. I also enjoy the work I do.
There's two kickers to this though
The director in question, is my old man. It's a family business. I know people think they are indispensible etc but the business genuinely will suffer, at least in the short term, if I leave. nd I don't want that to happen if I can avoid it.
I have no written contract - at least, I certainly never signed anything. We just never got around to sorting one out when I joined 3 years ago and therefore nothing was amended to include the teleworking.
Bit of a vague question this, I realise, but...any thoughts?
Blimey!
A contract of employment is an agreement between an employer and an employee. Your rights and duties, and those of your employer, are called the ‘terms' of the contract. However, the contract doesn’t have to be in writing, but you’re entitled to a written statement of the main terms within two months of starting work - according to employment law
This may almost be 'constructive dismissal', but he's your Dad and do you want to take him to court?
He may just simply have the hump with you because you have been a twit and you need to give him time to calm down and then have a chat to discuss the situation.
If the arrangement has worked so far, why can't it go on?
A contract of employment is an agreement between an employer and an employee. Your rights and duties, and those of your employer, are called the ‘terms' of the contract. However, the contract doesn’t have to be in writing, but you’re entitled to a written statement of the main terms within two months of starting work - according to employment law
This may almost be 'constructive dismissal', but he's your Dad and do you want to take him to court?
He may just simply have the hump with you because you have been a twit and you need to give him time to calm down and then have a chat to discuss the situation.
If the arrangement has worked so far, why can't it go on?
Edited by mogul on Wednesday 24th October 14:28
We've had the odd disagreement before but nothing serious and it's always been verbal with the "threat" of not being able to maintain the distance lurking in the background. As you say though, it soon blows over. Doesn't help that I'm as stubborn as he is and will dig my heels in on certain things (this being one of them).
This is precisely why I haven't replied to this particular email today and will wait until tomorrow.
However, the explicit request for relocation there is a new one and is making me question the future a lot more than I have in the past. It'll probably blow over again though, but I wouldn't mind knowing exactly where I stand with regard to employment law, if only to point out that the request is impractical and, ultimately detrimental to the business.
You're right, I don't want to go to court or anything that drastic - and if things really did come to a head then I would just cut my losses and look for a new job up here (and he'd in all likelihood bung me a couple of months' salary to tide me over).
This is precisely why I haven't replied to this particular email today and will wait until tomorrow.
However, the explicit request for relocation there is a new one and is making me question the future a lot more than I have in the past. It'll probably blow over again though, but I wouldn't mind knowing exactly where I stand with regard to employment law, if only to point out that the request is impractical and, ultimately detrimental to the business.
You're right, I don't want to go to court or anything that drastic - and if things really did come to a head then I would just cut my losses and look for a new job up here (and he'd in all likelihood bung me a couple of months' salary to tide me over).
Some more quotes:
If your employer wants to change your contract (for example relocation)
If your employer wants to make changes, they should consult you or your representative, explain the reasons, and listen to alternative ideas.
Changes can be agreed directly between you and your employer, or through a 'collective agreement' between your employer. This might be allowed by your contract even if you're not a union member.
I'm still not sure where you stand as you don't have a contract. Obviously you have employee rights (and probably more as you don;t have a contract!)
and more (but this assumes your employer is moving - not sure if you could use this as he is demanding you move though?)
When refusing to move becomes redundancy
If you don't want to move with your employer, you may become redundant because:
* the job at the current location no longer exists
* you're being offered an alternative, but you refuse the offer as not suitable to you.
Whether you get a redundancy payment depends on a number of factors, including how long you've been working for your employer. However, the most important question is whether you've ' unreasonably' refused an offer of suitable alternative work.
There is no fixed distance which is 'reasonable'- it depends on your particular circumstances. If the new location is just a few miles away and you can drive or easily take public transport, it will probably be unreasonable to turn down the offer. If, however, it involves a difficult journey, even if it's only a few miles away, or affects personal matters like your family situation or children's education, it may be reasonable to say no.
When you are facing redundancy there is a right to a trial period in any alternative job you are offered - check the link below for more information.
Redundancy is a dismissal so you can always consider an unfair dismissal claim if you feel badly treated.
Difficult one from where i sit but I'm sure someone with more knowledge will be along shortly.
If your employer wants to change your contract (for example relocation)
If your employer wants to make changes, they should consult you or your representative, explain the reasons, and listen to alternative ideas.
Changes can be agreed directly between you and your employer, or through a 'collective agreement' between your employer. This might be allowed by your contract even if you're not a union member.
I'm still not sure where you stand as you don't have a contract. Obviously you have employee rights (and probably more as you don;t have a contract!)
and more (but this assumes your employer is moving - not sure if you could use this as he is demanding you move though?)
When refusing to move becomes redundancy
If you don't want to move with your employer, you may become redundant because:
* the job at the current location no longer exists
* you're being offered an alternative, but you refuse the offer as not suitable to you.
Whether you get a redundancy payment depends on a number of factors, including how long you've been working for your employer. However, the most important question is whether you've ' unreasonably' refused an offer of suitable alternative work.
There is no fixed distance which is 'reasonable'- it depends on your particular circumstances. If the new location is just a few miles away and you can drive or easily take public transport, it will probably be unreasonable to turn down the offer. If, however, it involves a difficult journey, even if it's only a few miles away, or affects personal matters like your family situation or children's education, it may be reasonable to say no.
When you are facing redundancy there is a right to a trial period in any alternative job you are offered - check the link below for more information.
Redundancy is a dismissal so you can always consider an unfair dismissal claim if you feel badly treated.
Difficult one from where i sit but I'm sure someone with more knowledge will be along shortly.
Edited by mogul on Wednesday 24th October 17:03
Sticky Wicket!
Firstly you have to seperate out personal from business, I realise that this may be difficult but you have to make a real effort at it.
At the end of the day you have to what is best for you, this may mean that you part company from the business or work for it in a different way (eg external consulatnt).
In your shoes I would pick up the phone rather than respond via email (it is very easy for someone to mis-interpret the way something is said within an email), or better still fly down and discuss it in person. It may well be worth writing the email that you want to send but not actually send it, at least that way it will clarify the thoughts in your mind.
If you really don't want to go back to Reading (and I don't blame you, having lived in Theale for a year or so) then you need to state that this is non-negotiable from your point of view and work things forward on that basis. It may be that you do have to part company, you won't be the first or last family memeber to ever leave a family business, but make sure he knows it's nothing personal.
All this talk of constructive dismissal, redundancy etc is premature at this stage.
Hope you can work things out
davidy
Firstly you have to seperate out personal from business, I realise that this may be difficult but you have to make a real effort at it.
At the end of the day you have to what is best for you, this may mean that you part company from the business or work for it in a different way (eg external consulatnt).
In your shoes I would pick up the phone rather than respond via email (it is very easy for someone to mis-interpret the way something is said within an email), or better still fly down and discuss it in person. It may well be worth writing the email that you want to send but not actually send it, at least that way it will clarify the thoughts in your mind.
If you really don't want to go back to Reading (and I don't blame you, having lived in Theale for a year or so) then you need to state that this is non-negotiable from your point of view and work things forward on that basis. It may be that you do have to part company, you won't be the first or last family memeber to ever leave a family business, but make sure he knows it's nothing personal.
All this talk of constructive dismissal, redundancy etc is premature at this stage.
Hope you can work things out
davidy
There's something very special about family businesses isn't there.
My immediate thoughts were that the company had been very good to you. Really very good. But then I guess we don't know if there were historical balances to redress, only you know this.
All sorts of extra stuff weighs in with this sort of a relationship, your Dad might just want you back home, he might miss you that much! Maybe. Otherwise he might just be thinking 'bo
ocks to him, if I have to live in Reading so does he'.
It's potentially only a situation you'll fix by having a heart to heart and saying "Living in Edinburgh means so much to me that I would seriously contemplate leaving the business if I was faced with such a choice. How do we make this work (you old bastard)".
My immediate thoughts were that the company had been very good to you. Really very good. But then I guess we don't know if there were historical balances to redress, only you know this.
All sorts of extra stuff weighs in with this sort of a relationship, your Dad might just want you back home, he might miss you that much! Maybe. Otherwise he might just be thinking 'bo
ocks to him, if I have to live in Reading so does he'.It's potentially only a situation you'll fix by having a heart to heart and saying "Living in Edinburgh means so much to me that I would seriously contemplate leaving the business if I was faced with such a choice. How do we make this work (you old bastard)".
Oh I know things have been good for me thus far - I'm under no illusions there. Neither am I under the misapprehension that the company somehow owes me anything.
No, I simply would rather carry on doing what I do. (And aside from the altruistic concerns for the business itself, there are obviously personal incentives - the package, including home working etc, is not to be sniffed at)
But it will not be at the cost of moving back down south.
In fact, the original plan was to relocate the business up here around about now anyway, as he was living up here too. But that's since been abandoned, for reasons best known to himself.
No, I simply would rather carry on doing what I do. (And aside from the altruistic concerns for the business itself, there are obviously personal incentives - the package, including home working etc, is not to be sniffed at)
But it will not be at the cost of moving back down south.
In fact, the original plan was to relocate the business up here around about now anyway, as he was living up here too. But that's since been abandoned, for reasons best known to himself.
In my opinion (hardly worth reading on now, is it. By the way that's the verb to 'read', not the place in Berkshire) this is a family dispute, and has no connection to employment law.
If my Dad pissed me off I'd have an argument with him and probably my Mum would get dragged into it and we'd come up with something. As the last poster said, free flights from Edinburgh isn't really going to work, is it?
Why has he changed his mind? Do you often oversleep? Could you leave and get another job? No, I didn't think so.
If my Dad pissed me off I'd have an argument with him and probably my Mum would get dragged into it and we'd come up with something. As the last poster said, free flights from Edinburgh isn't really going to work, is it?
Why has he changed his mind? Do you often oversleep? Could you leave and get another job? No, I didn't think so.
groomi said:
But generally, do you honestly think it's feasible for you to live in Edinburgh and work in Reading unless you work for a company the size of Shell/BP/GSK etc.?
Perfectly feasible - I have done for almost a year now. The rising costs came about due to insistence that I come into the office once a week. To be honest, the things I do (programming, magazine layout, website stuff etc) warrant once a month, if that, of trips to the office. Ordinary Bloke said:
In my opinion (hardly worth reading on now, is it. By the way that's the verb to 'read', not the place in Berkshire) this is a family dispute, and has no connection to employment law.
If my Dad pissed me off I'd have an argument with him and probably my Mum would get dragged into it and we'd come up with something. As the last poster said, free flights from Edinburgh isn't really going to work, is it?
Why has he changed his mind? Do you often oversleep? Could you leave and get another job? No, I didn't think so.
Nope, you're completely wide of the mark - this is me asking for information on a company asking me to move home. This is exactly why I left it to the end of my original post to mention it was a family business, and that was only to give some insight into why I might be reluctant to "sue em for constructive dismissal and take em to the cleaners". We sorted the family/work thing out a long time ago (I've been there for 3 years). In this instance my boss has pissed me off. He just happens to be my dad. As for the "free flights"...it's hardly a luxury. In fact, it's bloody tedious. If my Dad pissed me off I'd have an argument with him and probably my Mum would get dragged into it and we'd come up with something. As the last poster said, free flights from Edinburgh isn't really going to work, is it?
Why has he changed his mind? Do you often oversleep? Could you leave and get another job? No, I didn't think so.
I probably shouldn't have mentioned the "moving business up north" thing, it's clouded things a little - that was really to illuminate some of the thinking behind my personal move.
No I don't often oversleep at all. And of course I could get another job. I don't want to - both for my own sake and the short term effect on both the business that I have a vested interest in and my dad - but I will if I have to.
I didn't mean to p1ss you off, but if I worked for my Dad things would be very different from the current situation. Family politics is a million miles away from office politics.
OK, following your rules... you don't have a leg to stand on. Verbal contracts are... verbal and therefore in invisible without witnesses. You have to do whatever they tell you.
If it were my Dad, however, I'd have a lot of leverage, beyond the normal legal employer/employee stuff.
OK, following your rules... you don't have a leg to stand on. Verbal contracts are... verbal and therefore in invisible without witnesses. You have to do whatever they tell you.
If it were my Dad, however, I'd have a lot of leverage, beyond the normal legal employer/employee stuff.
You didn't piss me off 
There is no family politics - there's no family (without going into details). And with a company of 5 people, office politics is pretty much non-existant too.
I have no leverage from the family angle whatsoever. Quite the opposite in fact as we try our best not to give anyone else in the company a reason to think I've got it easier or anything. Unfortunately he tends to overdo that
There is no family politics - there's no family (without going into details). And with a company of 5 people, office politics is pretty much non-existant too.I have no leverage from the family angle whatsoever. Quite the opposite in fact as we try our best not to give anyone else in the company a reason to think I've got it easier or anything. Unfortunately he tends to overdo that
Right, this isn't going away. I'm going to need to get some definitive advice, whether from here or some employment information "office". Any suggestions on who to contact?
I am a member of the National Union of Journalists, despite the job no longer being that applicable - I assume I can still give their legal eagles a shout?
I am a member of the National Union of Journalists, despite the job no longer being that applicable - I assume I can still give their legal eagles a shout?
Edited by Famous Graham on Wednesday 31st October 09:27
Graham, this can be a very tricky situation indeed, especially one where both parties need to feel like they are not being compromised.
Have you been down since the email last week, or have you spoken to your old man on the phone since?
I wonder if there is a compromise that you can come to, whereby you come down once a fortnight / month for a slightly longer visit to save on flight costs? Would that work as short or medium term fix maybe?
Are you a shareholder in the business at present?
I think however that coming out of this will be the need to formalise your contract and working arrangements anyway, whilst that may be painful as a process it will give you stability moving forwards as well as meaning that each party knows where the other stands.
A thought, is there any chance that your home working arrangement has caused issue with the three other staff, and that is actually what is behind this?
On email / IM if you want to chat about it off line.
Have you been down since the email last week, or have you spoken to your old man on the phone since?
I wonder if there is a compromise that you can come to, whereby you come down once a fortnight / month for a slightly longer visit to save on flight costs? Would that work as short or medium term fix maybe?
Are you a shareholder in the business at present?
I think however that coming out of this will be the need to formalise your contract and working arrangements anyway, whilst that may be painful as a process it will give you stability moving forwards as well as meaning that each party knows where the other stands.
A thought, is there any chance that your home working arrangement has caused issue with the three other staff, and that is actually what is behind this?
On email / IM if you want to chat about it off line.
RichUK said:
On email / IM if you want to chat about it off line.
Will do - there's a danger here of it spiralling off into analysis of our relationship, characters and whatnot. All I'm really after here is how to determine if it's an unreasonable request (outwith my personal desire not to move back down south) and thus how to respond to it. I suspect raising a formal grievance is the answer but that then really ups the ante.coyft said:
2. The travel costs associated with you being so far from the office were more expensive than initially thought. So the boss is flexible yet again and agrees for you to travel less to the office. Which presumably suits you just fine as it's a pain for you to travel.
Never happened - last week was the first week I wasn't going to go down. So it has not been implemented, much less evaluated.coyft said:
3. On the ONE occasion they ask you to be flexible and consider their needs you oversleep and miss the important meeting. If I were your boss I would be pissed off and expect you to apologise, offer to refund the cost of the missed travel and basically grovel and promise that it wouldn't happen again.
4. I suspect you did none of that
I did do that, but not the offer to pay thing. Never crossed my mind, but it's a fair point.4. I suspect you did none of that
coyft said:
and instead said "what's the problem, it's no biggy, was only a stupid meeting and I overslept so what?!"
I have just a little more respect for the business and boss than that.I really can't see how employment legislation is going to be helpful here. He's your old man and I don't see him giving two hoots about the law in this case.
Look at the potentially scenarios:
1) If as your employer, he can force you to move. So you quit. He's pissed.
2) If as your employer, he can force you to move. You move. You're pissed.
3) If as your employer, he cannot force you to move. He's pissed.
There is no winner in this. You need to find a compromise.
- The "relocation expenses" on offer are enough to make it worthwhile.
- Rather than spending one day/week in Reading, how about one week/month. Less chance of flights being missed etc and more time to be productive.
- Can the meetings come to you?
If it comes to it, and you really will not move, and he will not change his views then do you get to a situation where you offer to quit (to be replaced with a Reading-based employee), but that you will continue the current arrangement until they are in place, thus preventing impact to the business?
That way, he's happy (from a business perspective) and you get to keep your life?
Look at the potentially scenarios:
1) If as your employer, he can force you to move. So you quit. He's pissed.
2) If as your employer, he can force you to move. You move. You're pissed.
3) If as your employer, he cannot force you to move. He's pissed.
There is no winner in this. You need to find a compromise.
- The "relocation expenses" on offer are enough to make it worthwhile.
- Rather than spending one day/week in Reading, how about one week/month. Less chance of flights being missed etc and more time to be productive.
- Can the meetings come to you?
If it comes to it, and you really will not move, and he will not change his views then do you get to a situation where you offer to quit (to be replaced with a Reading-based employee), but that you will continue the current arrangement until they are in place, thus preventing impact to the business?
That way, he's happy (from a business perspective) and you get to keep your life?
coyft said:
At the end of the day you have to convince them that your move to Scotland is good for the business.
That's a very good point. I'll have a think on that. As for the "putting up with disruption", this really was the first time in 10 months that I missed a flight and changes had to be made in the office. If it had been the 5th, 4th, 3rd...hell, even 2nd time, then I might agree with you.
UptheIron - I think a week or so would work out more expensive. There's only one hotel - 85 quid a night and no, the meetings can't come to me as they involve everyone in the office. Your "final solution" is the way I'd envisage going about things if it comes to that, yes.
As it happens, I've had another email today reiterating the "formal notification for me to relocate", so I'm going to get a flight sorted asap to try and sort things out face to face. Probably won't be able to do so until next week though.
Edited by Famous Graham on Wednesday 31st October 13:31
Famous Graham said:
UptheIron - I think a week or so would work out more expensive. There's only one hotel - 85 quid a night and no, the meetings can't come to me as they involve everyone in the office. Your "final solution" is the way I'd envisage going about things if it comes to that, yes.
Is this issue really about cost though? If it is, then what price do you put on staying in Scotland. What if you were to meet the travelling expenses personally?If it's not about cost, then could you put a case forward that spending fewer but longer periods of time in the office would be more productive?
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