No Airwaves Ducati at Donington this w/end
Discussion
British Superbike Championship leaders Airwaves Ducati will not be racing at Donington Park for round four of the season.
Team Owner Darrell Healey has withdrawn the team who lead both the riders and teams standings, due to a safety concern with the recently added regulation.
It was announced on Monday that anyone running V-twin machinery in BSB will have to carry a minimum weight of 175kg, instead of 165kg as set out at the beginning of the season.
The move to hit the Ducati’s with a weight penalty came as a result of four-cylinder teams suggesting they were over-stretching the standard engine parts of their bikes to keep with the Italian machines.
Airwaves Team Manager Colin Wright told MCN: “We won’t be going to Donington this weekend.
“The race organizers have imposed this penalty without any supporting evidence.
“There has been concerns about the safety of other bikes and reliability, but adding 10kg of weight to our bikes effectively four days before a race weekend means we can’t do any testing and for safety reasons we are going to withdraw.
“I don’t know what MSVR will do as we may have broken the conditions of the championship by not attending and be kicked out.
“But Ducati hasn’t even tested the 1098R with an added 10kg either.
“We are prepared to go along with the new regulation as long as we get time to test with it.
“From tomorrow onwards the team and myself will look into how we can add this extra weight, but for us Donington isn’t going to happen.”
In an official team statement, Team Principal of the GSE team, Darrell Healey said: "I am absolutely astounded that the changes have been introduced after only three race meetings and four days before the next event at Donington Park.
"We, as a team, have spent tens of thousands of pounds testing and developing the 1098R based on what we thought were fixed regulations, but it is now clear that under Article A5 MSVR/MCRCB can clearly change the rules as and when they please!
"This is not a situation that either the team or I are comfortable with, and whilst little can be done for this year, I would certainly require absolute clarity on a fixed set of technical rules if we were to compete in any future British Superbike Championships.”
“The bottom line is that we do not have the most competitive race bike performance wise, and that is clear for everybody to see, but both of our riders have been consistent over the first six races and that is why Shane leads the championship.
"Similarly, had our competitors achieved consistent race finishes, our lead would most probably be less than 5 points, which begs the question as to whether the organisers would have reached the same conclusion!
“However, the real joke here is that last October, we, on behalf of Ducati, requested the use of non-production pistons on safety grounds to use in this years BSB Championship, and that request was completely thrown out by ALL the teams racing four cylinder motorcycles.
"Now, just over six months later, those same teams are demanding rule changes to allow non-standard engine parts to be fitted on safety grounds!
"I would suggest that their time would be better spent concentrating on producing fast, but reliable race bikes, rather than constantly whingeing to the race organisers to vary the technical rules.”
Team Owner Darrell Healey has withdrawn the team who lead both the riders and teams standings, due to a safety concern with the recently added regulation.
It was announced on Monday that anyone running V-twin machinery in BSB will have to carry a minimum weight of 175kg, instead of 165kg as set out at the beginning of the season.
The move to hit the Ducati’s with a weight penalty came as a result of four-cylinder teams suggesting they were over-stretching the standard engine parts of their bikes to keep with the Italian machines.
Airwaves Team Manager Colin Wright told MCN: “We won’t be going to Donington this weekend.
“The race organizers have imposed this penalty without any supporting evidence.
“There has been concerns about the safety of other bikes and reliability, but adding 10kg of weight to our bikes effectively four days before a race weekend means we can’t do any testing and for safety reasons we are going to withdraw.
“I don’t know what MSVR will do as we may have broken the conditions of the championship by not attending and be kicked out.
“But Ducati hasn’t even tested the 1098R with an added 10kg either.
“We are prepared to go along with the new regulation as long as we get time to test with it.
“From tomorrow onwards the team and myself will look into how we can add this extra weight, but for us Donington isn’t going to happen.”
In an official team statement, Team Principal of the GSE team, Darrell Healey said: "I am absolutely astounded that the changes have been introduced after only three race meetings and four days before the next event at Donington Park.
"We, as a team, have spent tens of thousands of pounds testing and developing the 1098R based on what we thought were fixed regulations, but it is now clear that under Article A5 MSVR/MCRCB can clearly change the rules as and when they please!
"This is not a situation that either the team or I are comfortable with, and whilst little can be done for this year, I would certainly require absolute clarity on a fixed set of technical rules if we were to compete in any future British Superbike Championships.”
“The bottom line is that we do not have the most competitive race bike performance wise, and that is clear for everybody to see, but both of our riders have been consistent over the first six races and that is why Shane leads the championship.
"Similarly, had our competitors achieved consistent race finishes, our lead would most probably be less than 5 points, which begs the question as to whether the organisers would have reached the same conclusion!
“However, the real joke here is that last October, we, on behalf of Ducati, requested the use of non-production pistons on safety grounds to use in this years BSB Championship, and that request was completely thrown out by ALL the teams racing four cylinder motorcycles.
"Now, just over six months later, those same teams are demanding rule changes to allow non-standard engine parts to be fitted on safety grounds!
"I would suggest that their time would be better spent concentrating on producing fast, but reliable race bikes, rather than constantly whingeing to the race organisers to vary the technical rules.”
Stuart Higgs is losing the plot here . .
I completely agree with Healy's comments above. Having watched this year the Ducati certainly isn't the quickest top end and the fours get out of the corners equally well.
Byrne is the Bayliss of BSB and if Haslam/Crutchlow/Sykes/Harris hadn't been throwing away good positions in crashes then the championship would be much closer than it is . .
JAck Valentine/Rob Mcelnea are the architects of this I bet, they've been the most vocal and should spend their time developing a bike than can compete.
Higgs could at least impose a lower level of ballast, say 5kg which wouldn't have the effect of losing the championship leading team and one of the biggest supporters of BSB in recent years with this decision.
Does he really think that the teams running 4's are going to de-tune their bikes because Ducti aren't out there, of course not, so allow non standard pistons and rods and restrict the ducati through airflow . . .
How much longer before apart from control tyres we have control everyhing, it'll be the R1 cup if we're not careful !
I completely agree with Healy's comments above. Having watched this year the Ducati certainly isn't the quickest top end and the fours get out of the corners equally well.
Byrne is the Bayliss of BSB and if Haslam/Crutchlow/Sykes/Harris hadn't been throwing away good positions in crashes then the championship would be much closer than it is . .
JAck Valentine/Rob Mcelnea are the architects of this I bet, they've been the most vocal and should spend their time developing a bike than can compete.
Higgs could at least impose a lower level of ballast, say 5kg which wouldn't have the effect of losing the championship leading team and one of the biggest supporters of BSB in recent years with this decision.
Does he really think that the teams running 4's are going to de-tune their bikes because Ducti aren't out there, of course not, so allow non standard pistons and rods and restrict the ducati through airflow . . .
How much longer before apart from control tyres we have control everyhing, it'll be the R1 cup if we're not careful !
Well, that's destroyed any interest in BSB for me for the rest of the season, as the series is clearly a political farce whatever happens from now on.
If a manufacturer/team build a bike to a set of pre-determined regs and it's perceieved to be quicker or so much better than the opposition it down to the opposition to raise their game to compete, not bleat to the organisers to change the rules....what a load of tosh.
I don't balme them for pulling...in fact, I'd take my toys elsewhere completely, but I suspect, that with corporate sponsors involvement and other money related stuff etc., that won't happen.
If a manufacturer/team build a bike to a set of pre-determined regs and it's perceieved to be quicker or so much better than the opposition it down to the opposition to raise their game to compete, not bleat to the organisers to change the rules....what a load of tosh.
I don't balme them for pulling...in fact, I'd take my toys elsewhere completely, but I suspect, that with corporate sponsors involvement and other money related stuff etc., that won't happen.
The conspriracy theory . . .
Palmer takes the commercial rights to the championship. Already concerned over the size of crowds and the costs of putting on a decent show he has already talked about wheelie competitions during the lunch break. Realising this was a b
ks idea at best and that fans may find it amusing once or twice but do not come to watch racing to watch the side shows.
The championship is being led after 3 rounds by over 40 points, Shaky looks unstoppable and then it could all be over 2-3 rounds before the end of the season.
It's now not just the gate receipts at Oulton, Cadwell, Snetterton and Brands that are the concern but each circuits viability and the utterly crucial television rights. He has secured better converage than Dorna ever managed and this is crucial for making BSB pay as the commercial rights holder bringing in additional sponsorship in a climate of restrictive expenditure.
Given the wheelie competition is not going to work what else can we do. . . . Let's impose a penalty on the championship leading machinery that will undoubtedly slow it down. It will appeal to the other teams, it will hopefully cause the Ducati to slow so much the other teams can catch up and once the political situation gets really hot we can reverse the decision and make it 5kg and look like we listen to everyone.
In the intervening period the championship will have closed up and the television audiences and crowds will have been secured for the rest of the year . . . Bingo everyones a winner. . .
Perhaps Hicks should have had the foresight to realise there would be issues given the protests on including the 1098's and ayed out a series of handicap guidelines before the season started based on similar lines to the WSB series.
Now that would have been smart.
Of course the losers are Airwaves, the other teams because they are not going to de-tune their bikes, but may not have to get past the Ducati to win and therefore will continue to suffer engine failures until they are allowed to run aftermarket pistons and the crowds are going to be robbed of equal racing and even an entire team at Donington.
Suzuki have been fastest through the speed traps and have been running their '08 spec engine since mid '07 and yet they can't build it right. Rob Mac is another who has been at the forefront of these protestations . . . I hope they're happy with the politicking ballsing it up for the fans.
See you at Donington though, as we'll still be there. . . Haslam will run on at Melbourne, Sykes will fall off at Redgate and Crutchlow will win, well one at least. If Harris is fit enough and stays on it he may make the podium. I hope James Ellison does the double to be honest
Palmer takes the commercial rights to the championship. Already concerned over the size of crowds and the costs of putting on a decent show he has already talked about wheelie competitions during the lunch break. Realising this was a b
ks idea at best and that fans may find it amusing once or twice but do not come to watch racing to watch the side shows.The championship is being led after 3 rounds by over 40 points, Shaky looks unstoppable and then it could all be over 2-3 rounds before the end of the season.
It's now not just the gate receipts at Oulton, Cadwell, Snetterton and Brands that are the concern but each circuits viability and the utterly crucial television rights. He has secured better converage than Dorna ever managed and this is crucial for making BSB pay as the commercial rights holder bringing in additional sponsorship in a climate of restrictive expenditure.
Given the wheelie competition is not going to work what else can we do. . . . Let's impose a penalty on the championship leading machinery that will undoubtedly slow it down. It will appeal to the other teams, it will hopefully cause the Ducati to slow so much the other teams can catch up and once the political situation gets really hot we can reverse the decision and make it 5kg and look like we listen to everyone.
In the intervening period the championship will have closed up and the television audiences and crowds will have been secured for the rest of the year . . . Bingo everyones a winner. . .
Perhaps Hicks should have had the foresight to realise there would be issues given the protests on including the 1098's and ayed out a series of handicap guidelines before the season started based on similar lines to the WSB series.
Now that would have been smart.
Of course the losers are Airwaves, the other teams because they are not going to de-tune their bikes, but may not have to get past the Ducati to win and therefore will continue to suffer engine failures until they are allowed to run aftermarket pistons and the crowds are going to be robbed of equal racing and even an entire team at Donington.
Suzuki have been fastest through the speed traps and have been running their '08 spec engine since mid '07 and yet they can't build it right. Rob Mac is another who has been at the forefront of these protestations . . . I hope they're happy with the politicking ballsing it up for the fans.
See you at Donington though, as we'll still be there. . . Haslam will run on at Melbourne, Sykes will fall off at Redgate and Crutchlow will win, well one at least. If Harris is fit enough and stays on it he may make the podium. I hope James Ellison does the double to be honest
Edited by Johno on Wednesday 21st May 11:29
GreigR said:
The move to hit the Ducati’s with a weight penalty came as a result of four-cylinder teams suggesting they were over-stretching the standard engine parts of their bikes to keep with the Italian machines.
What utter b*lls. The speed of the Duke has no relevance on what they do to the engine. They run them hard and occasionally they blow up. If Ducati can build a reliable bike, then why can't the others? They aren't going to detune them if Ducati get a 10kg weight penalty.The growth to 1200cc was controversial and maybe it was a mistake, but as people have already pointed out in both WSB and BSB there is only one Ducati in each doing all the winning. Byre and Bayliss. Both are superb and seem to really "get" the Ducatis. Far better than any other riders.
This is an ill-timed and quite frankly stupid move by MSV. The loss of Airwaves totally devalues the championship for me. 10kg's doesn't sound much, but with machines like this, who knows how it could affect them.
They are right not to take any extra risks in an already dangerous sport.
Does this extra weight only get given to Airwaves, or are NW200 affected as well?
woah there my little chickens, nothing official has been mentioned by msvr or mcrcb about airwaves officially pulling the plug.
and as for the non ducati teams kicking up a stir, fair play, the rules were set last year and ducati managed to still bend them to there own advantage, hence the reason the inline 4's are being pushed to the limit to try and narrow the advantage the dukes have (and they do have)
even with the 10kg penalty they will still be able to pull something out of the bag, like this.
165kg minimum weight before , 175kg weight afterwards, (wet weight remember)
so to make that 10kg extra they will fit a bigger airbox and fuel tank which will allow them to ctually use the 1098 to its full spec, more air + more fuel = more power
the big advantage ducati have over everyone is there traction control which is exactly the same system used to push messr's bayliss and stoner............
ban traction control, give the dukes an air restrictor and let battle commence is what i say.
and as for the non ducati teams kicking up a stir, fair play, the rules were set last year and ducati managed to still bend them to there own advantage, hence the reason the inline 4's are being pushed to the limit to try and narrow the advantage the dukes have (and they do have)
even with the 10kg penalty they will still be able to pull something out of the bag, like this.
165kg minimum weight before , 175kg weight afterwards, (wet weight remember)
so to make that 10kg extra they will fit a bigger airbox and fuel tank which will allow them to ctually use the 1098 to its full spec, more air + more fuel = more power
the big advantage ducati have over everyone is there traction control which is exactly the same system used to push messr's bayliss and stoner............
ban traction control, give the dukes an air restrictor and let battle commence is what i say.
castrolcraig said:
woah there my little chickens, nothing official has been mentioned by msvr or mcrcb about airwaves officially pulling the plug.
and as for the non ducati teams kicking up a stir, fair play, the rules were set last year and ducati managed to still bend them to there own advantage, hence the reason the inline 4's are being pushed to the limit to try and narrow the advantage the dukes have (and they do have)
even with the 10kg penalty they will still be able to pull something out of the bag, like this.
165kg minimum weight before , 175kg weight afterwards, (wet weight remember)
so to make that 10kg extra they will fit a bigger airbox and fuel tank which will allow them to ctually use the 1098 to its full spec, more air + more fuel = more power
the big advantage ducati have over everyone is there traction control which is exactly the same system used to push messr's bayliss and stoner............
ban traction control, give the dukes an air restrictor and let battle commence is what i say.
It isn't just as simple as adding a different sized airbox and fuel tank. 10 kg's is a lot. and as for the non ducati teams kicking up a stir, fair play, the rules were set last year and ducati managed to still bend them to there own advantage, hence the reason the inline 4's are being pushed to the limit to try and narrow the advantage the dukes have (and they do have)
even with the 10kg penalty they will still be able to pull something out of the bag, like this.
165kg minimum weight before , 175kg weight afterwards, (wet weight remember)
so to make that 10kg extra they will fit a bigger airbox and fuel tank which will allow them to ctually use the 1098 to its full spec, more air + more fuel = more power
the big advantage ducati have over everyone is there traction control which is exactly the same system used to push messr's bayliss and stoner............
ban traction control, give the dukes an air restrictor and let battle commence is what i say.
Personally, I think the Dukes do have something of a performance advantage, however this move is very ill-timed and smacks of politics and behind the scenes grumbling.
If they had waited until the middle of the season and given the teams time to deal with this, then that would have been fine, but the simple fact is that the Duke is a better bike and the other teams don't like it. Instead of developing their own machines to win, they are doing the Ferrari trick of trying to hobble the faster team by frankly underhand measures.
The Ducati is built to take advantage of the rules, it is not their fault that Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki and Yamaha can't build a fast enough bike. It also doesn't help that they employ riders who chuck it down the road more often.
You say Ducati has a better traction control system, that's as maybe, but it isn't exactly outwith the capabilities of of the 4 biggest bike manufacturers to come up with something is it. Are you saying that Messers Rossi, Pedrosa, Vermeulen and Hopkins don't have traction control?
Racing is about development of machines. Something MSV seem to have forgotten. If the big manufacturers can't compete with Ducati, then try harder. Just making arbitrary changes with no consultation and without much justification in my eyes just devalues the championship. Doing it a few days before a race and expecting people to just get on with it is utterly bonkers.
I'm glad Airwaves haven't pulled out just yet, but they would be justified in my eyes.
ifor, what im saying is any average joe club racer could jump on a race ducati with its tc and be massively quicker, so multiply that by the amount of talent an average bs rider has over them and bobs your uncle, fannys your aunt etc.
the problem is that even after the teams agreed the 1200cc ducati deal they still were not happy and managed to get the air resticors removed and bigger sumps.
meanwhile the inline 4 teams were dicovering that the big red italian machines were pulling a fast one and bending the rules to suit themselves.
thats even before ducati admitting they have not sold the required 300 1098r's needed for them to be homolgated, and that they had simply bent the rules again by pre registering them, and yes ifor i would guess that if airwaves and nw200 run the same airboxes and fuel tanks as rutter did at the nw200 that including the fuel that would add the required 10kg.....
the problem is that even after the teams agreed the 1200cc ducati deal they still were not happy and managed to get the air resticors removed and bigger sumps.
meanwhile the inline 4 teams were dicovering that the big red italian machines were pulling a fast one and bending the rules to suit themselves.
thats even before ducati admitting they have not sold the required 300 1098r's needed for them to be homolgated, and that they had simply bent the rules again by pre registering them, and yes ifor i would guess that if airwaves and nw200 run the same airboxes and fuel tanks as rutter did at the nw200 that including the fuel that would add the required 10kg.....
Given Colin Wrights interview on Crash. net I can't see them being there on safety grounds . .
The handicap system should have been sorted out before the season started. Ducati have not had any rules bent or changed to allow them to compete. The reason for their late entry was they wanted after market pistons, Higgs held his ground under pressure from the other teams that they should not be allowed and Ducati as a factory were approached to make engines to supersport spec, which in the end they did. I agree with Higgs decision here, it was one set of rules for everyone. (the same rules Jack Valentine was in MCN last week asking to be changed, ROb Mac has also been vociferous in his argument for aftermarket kit)
Where this has derailed is that the MCRCB did not predict that further rule changes may be required and that to use the clause they have without consulting and agreeing on a framework of handicapping systems prior to the commencement of the season has resulted in the situation we find ourselves in now.
TC is available to all and Ducati have done a better job of developing it for their racing bikes, whether GP or SB.
I am concerned that MSVR's influence on the series is seeking to kerb bike development and this is not healthy for the sport IMO.
I agree CR, air restrictors are probably the best way, although this does not reduce torque output hence why the WSB system accounts for this with incremental weight handicaps of 3kg.
It will be interesting to see now whether the level of supposed engine troubles dies down for the 4's, which I suspect it will not.
Racing is about the 'package' which includes all aspects and Ducati have got it right. Some of the other teams have issues with front forks, TC, swingarms and more importantly riders.
It seems it is an over reaction and giving the team a medium stage penalty of 5kg and an agreed scale of handicap's going forward may have got through them pulling out of the Donington round.
I have not seen any comment from Hackett's team yet, perhaps they intend on racing with the 10kg handicap? Does this handicap also extend to the Cup 1098 Laverty os riding ?
The handicap system should have been sorted out before the season started. Ducati have not had any rules bent or changed to allow them to compete. The reason for their late entry was they wanted after market pistons, Higgs held his ground under pressure from the other teams that they should not be allowed and Ducati as a factory were approached to make engines to supersport spec, which in the end they did. I agree with Higgs decision here, it was one set of rules for everyone. (the same rules Jack Valentine was in MCN last week asking to be changed, ROb Mac has also been vociferous in his argument for aftermarket kit)
Where this has derailed is that the MCRCB did not predict that further rule changes may be required and that to use the clause they have without consulting and agreeing on a framework of handicapping systems prior to the commencement of the season has resulted in the situation we find ourselves in now.
TC is available to all and Ducati have done a better job of developing it for their racing bikes, whether GP or SB.
I am concerned that MSVR's influence on the series is seeking to kerb bike development and this is not healthy for the sport IMO.
I agree CR, air restrictors are probably the best way, although this does not reduce torque output hence why the WSB system accounts for this with incremental weight handicaps of 3kg.
It will be interesting to see now whether the level of supposed engine troubles dies down for the 4's, which I suspect it will not.
Racing is about the 'package' which includes all aspects and Ducati have got it right. Some of the other teams have issues with front forks, TC, swingarms and more importantly riders.
It seems it is an over reaction and giving the team a medium stage penalty of 5kg and an agreed scale of handicap's going forward may have got through them pulling out of the Donington round.
I have not seen any comment from Hackett's team yet, perhaps they intend on racing with the 10kg handicap? Does this handicap also extend to the Cup 1098 Laverty os riding ?
castrolcraig said:
ifor, what im saying is any average joe club racer could jump on a race ducati with its tc and be massively quicker, so multiply that by the amount of talent an average bs rider has over them and bobs your uncle, fannys your aunt etc.
the problem is that even after the teams agreed the 1200cc ducati deal they still were not happy and managed to get the air resticors removed and bigger sumps.
meanwhile the inline 4 teams were dicovering that the big red italian machines were pulling a fast one and bending the rules to suit themselves.
thats even before ducati admitting they have not sold the required 300 1098r's needed for them to be homolgated, and that they had simply bent the rules again by pre registering them, and yes ifor i would guess that if airwaves and nw200 run the same airboxes and fuel tanks as rutter did at the nw200 that including the fuel that would add the required 10kg.....
But the rules are the same for ALL teams. I'll agree that Ducati are well known for getting rule changes to suit themselves, but to me as fan of BSB this isn't the problem in this instance.the problem is that even after the teams agreed the 1200cc ducati deal they still were not happy and managed to get the air resticors removed and bigger sumps.
meanwhile the inline 4 teams were dicovering that the big red italian machines were pulling a fast one and bending the rules to suit themselves.
thats even before ducati admitting they have not sold the required 300 1098r's needed for them to be homolgated, and that they had simply bent the rules again by pre registering them, and yes ifor i would guess that if airwaves and nw200 run the same airboxes and fuel tanks as rutter did at the nw200 that including the fuel that would add the required 10kg.....
It is ridiculous to make sudden destabilising changes at such short notice, especially given the fact that reason Byrne has such a great lead is not just down to excellent riding and a quick bike, but also down to the fact that his rivals have ridden like numpties at some point. Haslam has ridden like a man trying too hard. Sykes has had some bad luck and Crutchlow has chucked it down the road too many times.
If the Ducati has such a huge advantage, then why haven't they scored a 1,2,3 at each round? Rutter isn't exactly a slouch, but he hasn't won anything yet. Nor has Leon Camier. Maybe it's more the combination of Byrne and Ducati, rather than just the bike on it's own.
I could get on that bike and I'd be just as rubbish as I am now!
Cos Melandri is doing so well in GP's with the excellent traction control . . .
I agree it's not just the electrics and the argmunent is flawed . . . What's the difference between Hayden and Pedrosa then ?
I agree it's not just the electrics and the argmunent is flawed . . . What's the difference between Hayden and Pedrosa then ?
Simon Buckmaster said:
“I read with great interest the reported views of several British Superbike Team Managers in MCN this week. It makes me laugh,” he said.
“I agree 100 per cent with Colin Wright on the subject of engine spec.
“Last year, when I was manager for the Suzuki BSB team, we ran in ’08 spec with standard rods for full mileage and had no problems.
“At Brands the Suzuki of Sykes had a speed advantage on the straights and I have heard they have more power than at the end of 07 – but the engine failed in race two quite spectacularly.
“The answer isn’t a change in rules needed to stop the bikes from blowing up – it seems simple to me – just don’t rev the bikes so hard.”
“I agree 100 per cent with Colin Wright on the subject of engine spec.
“Last year, when I was manager for the Suzuki BSB team, we ran in ’08 spec with standard rods for full mileage and had no problems.
“At Brands the Suzuki of Sykes had a speed advantage on the straights and I have heard they have more power than at the end of 07 – but the engine failed in race two quite spectacularly.
“The answer isn’t a change in rules needed to stop the bikes from blowing up – it seems simple to me – just don’t rev the bikes so hard.”
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