Low speed stuff

[YZF600R]

History: Passed test on a 125cc machine at 17. Have ridden scooters since then ranging from a 125cc 2-Stroke through to a few 'Maxi-Scooters' including the 500cc Tmax and Gilera Nexus. In eight years I've covered about 100-120k on two wheels throughout Europe.

Thought it was about time to get a 'proper' bike. (I did the manual test back at 17 especially 'cos I knew the time would come when I wanted one!)

Picked up my YZF600R a couple of weeks ago, have so far done about 150 miles on it. After 8 years of riding scooters it is a very big change and I found these points:

1. I was really worried about remembering the use of gears, however touch wood I've yet to stall it. Have overrevved it a couple of times which I'm sure made me look like a plonker but hey ho. Am getting much more used to it now but yet to be able to tell what gear I'm in due to engine and revs. Has caused a couple of 'attempting to find 7th gear' on dual carraigeways!

2. Riding at higher speed 45+ is a lot easier on a sportsbike than the scooter, as it feels a lot more planted and stable.

3. Hill starts, which I thought would be a nightmare aren't bad at all. Not tried anything really steep yet, though.

4. Low speed straight line feathering the clutch in 1st/2nd is fine. Thought this would also be a nightmare.

5. However. Low speed turning. Argh. I find this quite tricky, especially small (not mini) roundabouts, U-turns and so on. Very good at them with a scooter but DIRE on the 'bike. I think a) I lack confidence in leaning the bike at low speeds as it is nearly 400lbs and b) The engine is quite jerky in 1st / 2nd and feathering the clutch/throttle leads to a fairly jerky turn which doesn't help point A. On a tight roundabout should I use 1st or 2nd?

I intend to get some further tuition but as you can imagine, all instructors are fully booked until October.

Also, what revs do most tend to use around town? I try and stick to about 4k rpm (30mph in 3rd) but with the Scorpion end can it does sound pretty damn loud!

[londonbabe]

drag the back brake to make the bike more stable on low speed manouvres, and look where you want to be. Also take your weight off the bars and it will get a lot better, oh and you shouldn't generally need 1st gear at any time other than pulling away from a standstill. Practice going slowly in 2nd with no clutch at all, with the back brake on and see how low it will rev and how slowly it will go before you need to slip the clutch. Different engines do different things but you'll probably be surprised and how low you can go.

As for the right gear around town I always want to be in the gear that allows be to accellerate out of trouble, but if there's no visible hazards the I'll go a gear or even 2 higher to save a bit of fuel and quiet the engine down a bit.

Edited by londonbabe on Saturday 9th August 13:07

[711]

I don't know which part of the country you are in, but I did a slow control course with this guy in Kent.

Here's a link to some of his tips on slow control:

http://www.survivalskills.clara.net/riding_skills_...

I've heard that quite a few of the advanced motorcycling groups run courses on slow control and machine control from time to time, so it might be worth looking up your local group.

Once you've got an idea of what techniques to use, find a car park and practice, practice, practice!

I deliberately bought a cheap bike to use as a winter hack and to learn slow control on; that may seem extravagant, but it's cheaper than fairing parts for your pride and joy!

[RizzoTheRat]

711 said:

Once you've got an idea of what techniques to use, find a car park and practice, practice, practice!

That's the main one. Go and find an empty car park on a sunday afternoon and practice slow circle and figure of eights in first gear controlling the speed on the clutch and rear brake. It's amazing what a difference you'll find after half an hour of practice.

[EvoBarry]

londonbabe said:

drag the back brake to make the bike more stable on low speed manouevres, and look where you want to be.

Thats all you need to work on for now imo. You can control the bikes momentum at low speed very easily like this. And the old adage about "looking where you want to go, not where you're going", is very apt.

[YZF600R]

Thanks chaps! (and babe)

I tend to look where I'm going anyway as a habit, I know looking down is a big no-no which will lead to disaster!

Have spent an hour or so in a deserted car park which has improved things but lots more practice is definitely in order.

Have tried the rear brake but have issues getting the correct amount of brake/throttle/clutch. Am becomming quicker so hopefully it'll fall into place soon.

Thanks to the link for the slow speed training, although £80 for 2 hours is a little steep! My local instructor has quoted me £150 for a full day (7 hours) including use of their GS500. Unfortunately have to wait for that, though.

First time on a big bike in the rain soon. Lovely and sunny this morning so thought I'd go to work on it! Has been pissing it down for hours

[Hooli]

just a thought as you've come from scoots. what is your chain like? if its loose/dry/generally crappy then low speed control is damn near impossible due to the lag in the drivetrain.
dont be afraid to slip the clutch like a granny in tescos, yes you can ride without doing so. but a few extra revs & slipping the clutch makes it much easier & you'll find you drop the revs/clutch slip as you get used to doing it anyway.
the advice above about taking your weight off the bars is good too, try to grip the tank with your knees so your arms arent supporting you.

[cyberface]

This is almost exactly my history - though I had a while on a Monster 600 after passing my test but sold it as it wasn't suitable for the station commute... which was what I used the scooters for, for many years.

First 'proper' bike bought last weekend - a CBR600F - nothing too mental as I knew it'd take time getting used to clutch and gears again.

Plenty of practice needed!!!

One thing pointed out that I may have to look at - there seems to be an awful lot of 'driveline shunt' which I've put down to lack of throttle control (with my scooters it was often on or off, even with the 100 mph souped up Gilera 180 strokers, because I used to ride those like a loon - they are faster than most sportsbikes in town). Being *incredibly* sensitive with the throttle in low gears at low speed (town) has managed to keep the bike smooth, but without concentrating 100% on being smooth it's easy to jerk along in lunges of acceleration and engine braking. Is this just incompetence or could the chain / sprockets be loose? The bike has nearly 60,000 miles on it, used as a commuter, and has a Scottoiler and a full service history so appears to have been well looked after. But I wouldn't know how tight a chain should be - it looks clean, and the Scottoiler's a good sign.

I assume it's just my lack of experience rather than anything wrong with the bike - as soon as I get the speed up it's ace and changing gear (whilst still unfamiliar) is getting better, don't have many problems getting into the right gear for turns etc. on open roads. Though with a CBR600 round my way, I could leave it in third and ride everywhere without changing gear

I don't have much problem balancing the bike at low speed (i.e. almost at a halt, clutch in, 1st, waiting for traffic to move off without stopping and putting my foot down) but pulling away once traffic moves... can be rather jerky again Perhaps I should leave it in 2nd for these manoeuvres and slip the clutch?

I'm still thinking 'car engine' so try to avoid any clutch slip, and really haven't got my head round the fact that the engine pulls to 13.5k rpm - which is probably a good thing as I learn, since the CBR's a pussycat below 7000 rpm, but is this the right way to do things or should I just hold a lower gear and higher engine revs for more control? I'm finding that in general 'cruise around and practice' riding (which is most of my riding at the moment) that I'm keeping the engine between 2 and 6k rpm. I've only done one 'let's see what this can do' run because some bloke in a 996 turbo was up my arse, and it's fast enough for my skills thanks very much Gearchanges seem to be a LOT smoother when going hard, for some reason - the opposite of a car 'box IME.

Shame about the bloody ste weather otherwise I'd have got a full day practice in. So car parks and slow CBT-style turning practice is worth it, right? Even though it raises my chances of dropping it many times.....

[Hooli]

chain slack varies from bike to bike but it'll be roughly an inch of movement midway between the front & rear sprockets. also try to lift the chain away from the rear sprocket midway around, if you can pull it more than a couple of mm off the sprocket then the chain is worn.
i dont think you ever get rid of driveline shunt on a chain drive bike, all you can do is keep it to as little as possible. took ages till i was happy slipping the clutch as much as my old bike wanted me too. you just need to remember bikes run wet clutches so they dont wear out like a car when slipped.
as to which gear to be in, if the engine pulls smoothly then the gear is right enough. holding a lower gear for more revs can make it more difficult to ride smoothly as you'll get more engine braking as you back off the power & so on.

[cyberface]

Hooli said:

chain slack varies from bike to bike but it'll be roughly an inch of movement midway between the front & rear sprockets. also try to lift the chain away from the rear sprocket midway around, if you can pull it more than a couple of mm off the sprocket then the chain is worn.
i dont think you ever get rid of driveline shunt on a chain drive bike, all you can do is keep it to as little as possible. took ages till i was happy slipping the clutch as much as my old bike wanted me too. you just need to remember bikes run wet clutches so they dont wear out like a car when slipped.
as to which gear to be in, if the engine pulls smoothly then the gear is right enough. holding a lower gear for more revs can make it more difficult to ride smoothly as you'll get more engine braking as you back off the power & so on.

Good to hear - if it dries out tomorrow then I'll be out on it, I'll check the chain then.

Even though the bike is high mileage (for a bike) which slightly worried me, the engine is as sweet as a nut - it's smooth all the way through the rev range, with delicate control of the throttle you can roll along at 2000 rpm without any shunt, then open it up and it'll pull smoothly all the way to 7000, when it comes on cam, the airbox starts howling and there's a pronounced step in the power delivery, all the way to the red line (well I haven't redlined it yet, I'm still trying to be responsible as it's my first 'sportbike', but I've taken it up to 12 and it's still smooth!). It's obviously been looked after, but the bike was very cheap so I'm expecting some issues. Sounds like the engine isn't going to be one of them! It's so damn smooth (well run-in, I guess!) that any gear is smooth, any jerkiness is due to my throttle control rather than the engine bucking and burping due to being too low revs. At least so far IME, I haven't tried riding through town at 10 mph in top...

[YZF600R]

cyberface said:

This is almost exactly my history - though I had a while on a Monster 600 after passing my test but sold it as it wasn't suitable for the station commute... which was what I used the scooters for, for many years.

First 'proper' bike bought last weekend - a CBR600F - nothing too mental as I knew it'd take time getting used to clutch and gears again.

Plenty of practice needed!!!

One thing pointed out that I may have to look at - there seems to be an awful lot of 'driveline shunt' which I've put down to lack of throttle control (with my scooters it was often on or off, even with the 100 mph souped up Gilera 180 strokers, because I used to ride those like a loon - they are faster than most sportsbikes in town). Being *incredibly* sensitive with the throttle in low gears at low speed (town) has managed to keep the bike smooth, but without concentrating 100% on being smooth it's easy to jerk along in lunges of acceleration and engine braking. Is this just incompetence or could the chain / sprockets be loose? The bike has nearly 60,000 miles on it, used as a commuter, and has a Scottoiler and a full service history so appears to have been well looked after. But I wouldn't know how tight a chain should be - it looks clean, and the Scottoiler's a good sign.

I assume it's just my lack of experience rather than anything wrong with the bike - as soon as I get the speed up it's ace and changing gear (whilst still unfamiliar) is getting better, don't have many problems getting into the right gear for turns etc. on open roads. Though with a CBR600 round my way, I could leave it in third and ride everywhere without changing gear

I don't have much problem balancing the bike at low speed (i.e. almost at a halt, clutch in, 1st, waiting for traffic to move off without stopping and putting my foot down) but pulling away once traffic moves... can be rather jerky again Perhaps I should leave it in 2nd for these manoeuvres and slip the clutch?

I'm still thinking 'car engine' so try to avoid any clutch slip, and really haven't got my head round the fact that the engine pulls to 13.5k rpm - which is probably a good thing as I learn, since the CBR's a pussycat below 7000 rpm, but is this the right way to do things or should I just hold a lower gear and higher engine revs for more control? I'm finding that in general 'cruise around and practice' riding (which is most of my riding at the moment) that I'm keeping the engine between 2 and 6k rpm. I've only done one 'let's see what this can do' run because some bloke in a 996 turbo was up my arse, and it's fast enough for my skills thanks very much Gearchanges seem to be a LOT smoother when going hard, for some reason - the opposite of a car 'box IME.

Shame about the bloody ste weather otherwise I'd have got a full day practice in. So car parks and slow CBT-style turning practice is worth it, right? Even though it raises my chances of dropping it many times.....

Great post. Glad to see I'm not the only one. (Yours isn't a Black CBR from West Sussex is it, per chance?) I nearly went for one with same miles and a Scottoiler although I guess there are tonnes around!

I don't think I've taken the 'Cat above 6k rpm yet, both because it would be beyond my confident capabilities and I'm a big girls blouse LOL. I don't like to go too far outside my comfort zone on the bike and would feel silly dropping it having done 100-120k scooter miles shiny side up so far! Have even thought of buying a cheapo CG125 or something to practice on, not really caring if I drop it.

No trouble with my gearbox & clutch at all and low speed straight line stuff is easy as pie although sometimes jerky if I'm not concentrating 100%. At junctions I'm quite hesitant and wait until a big gap rather than nip into smaller gaps I'd do on the scooter. With the Scorpion exhaust I have on mine anything above about 4k rpm sounds bloody loud (to me) so I try to keep below this unless I'm on a dual carriageway. For some reason, 5k rpm at 35mph sounds all wrong! Will check the chain as suggested although it had a major service just before I purchased it so hopefully it will be OK.

I find when 'pressing on' (comparatively, at about 30% of the bikes capabilities!) gear changes are smoother and I've tried clutchless upshifting with varying degrees of success. Prefer using the clutch for consistency at the moment. Going down the box is OK (always with clutch) but I can't rev-match to save my life so I either ride the clutch too much or sometimes it is jerky if I've changed down a tad too early - same as in a car. Probably get it spot on about 70% of the time at the moment.

[cyberface]

Funny that - I can rev-match easily but that's probably years of heel-n-toe in cars, it's just natural to blip the throttle mid change, just takes a few goes to find out how close the gears are.

The CBR was bought in central London not too far from my current client... went on Friday lunchtime to have a look (a colleague recommended the place, which is just across the road from his club (some private members place, not a nightclub)) - and the price was very competitive so I bought it on the spot. My first ride with gears and clutch for 8 years involved riding to a petrol station, filling up, then navigating my way out of Shoreditch back to Kent. I don't drive or ride in London as I can't stand the traffic and the attitude, so this was a bit of a baptism by fire. Luckily I only got serious abuse once, when I stalled at the lights and held up a couple of cars for a couple of seconds. That's all it takes for some people to start calling you a 'fking wr' etc. - morons - I'd like to see whether they'd do that in a queue in a shop...

Mine's completely standard so no lairy cans, which fits the explanation of the high miles as 'commuting'. In short - it's a clean bike and even though it's high mileage, it seems to be completely genuine - the last owner had it 4 years and maintained it constantly, racking up plenty of miles.

Like you I don't have the confidence yet to 'nip' anywhere like I did with the scooters, though some of the riding I used to do with the Gileras was crazy, they inspire that type of idiot riding So all town stuff is slow and considered with the CBR for the time being. On the open road it's a different story - luckily, it doesn't disguise speed that much (unlike a fast car like a 911) and it still feels fast going 70 mph, so I haven't been caught out coming up to a corner way faster than I can take it - on the contrary, I'm finding myself slowing down so much for corners that it'd have been easier to maintain the speed and just lean it over a bit... Equally the wind buffeting doesn't start till 100 mph so there's very little difference in 'feel' between 70 and 100, which could be a problem with Gatsos...

It's very different from a scooter, even a fast scooter, so even though they both have 2 wheels I'm treating them as completely different categories and not presuming that my experience on the scooter should transfer over to the bike. So sounds like you're being equally wise in that respect. Hell, I was doing wheelies and stoppies on my scooter and could even get my knee down if wanted (on roundabouts...) - it was a mental machine but quite obviously optimised for town environments. The CBR feels so much happier out of town - luckily there are plenty of routes I had for fast car driving round my way that will be even better on the bike (much easier to overtake on a bike). If only the weather would be more August-like

[Hooli]

YZF600R said:

Will check the chain as suggested although it had a major service just before I purchased it so hopefully it will be OK.

incase you dont know chains need lubing at least every 500miles, its not just a service thing. just a chain being dry can make it much more snatchy to ride. i still cant ride smooth in 1st & a lot of the time in 2nd, so im saying its just a bike thing you learn to work around with the clutch.