Part "effing" P regs...
Discussion
I'm currently in the measuring-and-pricing-up stage of planning to rip out my grotty, knackered 1980s kitchen and drag it kicking and screaming into the 21st century.
As part of this work I want to run new wiring along the walls (chased in) for a couple of extra sockets, move the existing sockets and cooker isolator (involving extending the wiring) and add fused spurs & new wiring for under-unit and plinth lighting, new cooker hood and dishwasher.
This is all p*ss easy stuff, but unfortunately being in a kitchen it's classed as Notifiable under this bloody daft "Part P" of the Building Regulations, which forces you down the route of either employing a Part P-authorised spark (expensive) or paying someone from "Building Control" to come and inspect things (again, expensive).
My gut instinct is to say b***ocks to all that and just bosh it in anyway, but the snag may come when I come to sell the place and there's no mention of any shiny new electrical stuff in the (equally fecking daft, thanks again NuLabour...) Home Information Pack.
Any advice on where to go with this? Preferably sneaky ways around it as I'm strongly opposed to paying someone to do the work or inspect it when I'm more than capable of doing it properly and safely!
Ta.
As part of this work I want to run new wiring along the walls (chased in) for a couple of extra sockets, move the existing sockets and cooker isolator (involving extending the wiring) and add fused spurs & new wiring for under-unit and plinth lighting, new cooker hood and dishwasher.
This is all p*ss easy stuff, but unfortunately being in a kitchen it's classed as Notifiable under this bloody daft "Part P" of the Building Regulations, which forces you down the route of either employing a Part P-authorised spark (expensive) or paying someone from "Building Control" to come and inspect things (again, expensive).
My gut instinct is to say b***ocks to all that and just bosh it in anyway, but the snag may come when I come to sell the place and there's no mention of any shiny new electrical stuff in the (equally fecking daft, thanks again NuLabour...) Home Information Pack.
Any advice on where to go with this? Preferably sneaky ways around it as I'm strongly opposed to paying someone to do the work or inspect it when I'm more than capable of doing it properly and safely!
Ta.
Being a electrican i welcomed the new part P rules, just to get some of the cowboys out of the industry.
Honesty you should get someone who is registered under many of the schemes out there to carry out the work. It is easy to get something to work, however getting it done corrctly is another thing.
Not saying you do not know what you are doing but say for instance you extend what is there and thats not safe?
There are many ways around it however for the cost and piece of mind just bite the bullet and pay the professionals!
Honesty you should get someone who is registered under many of the schemes out there to carry out the work. It is easy to get something to work, however getting it done corrctly is another thing.
Not saying you do not know what you are doing but say for instance you extend what is there and thats not safe?
There are many ways around it however for the cost and piece of mind just bite the bullet and pay the professionals!
eldar said:
...You shouldn't do it your self and pretend it was done a year before the regs came in...
That was the obvious solution: claim that although I'm installing brand-new units/tiles etc, all I've done electrically is replace the sockets/switches etc and that the wiring is all as it was before I moved in... 
Dafydd, just to give me a vague idea of how much I'd be looking at, what would you charge for the following:
- installing 2 new double sockets (approx. 3m of new wiring to be chased in)
- replacing 2 existing sockets (one needs relocating, wiring extending by approx. 1m and chasing in)
- relocating cooker isolator & socket (extending wiring by approx. 3m and chasing in)
- installing 3 new fused switches and wiring for under-unit lighting, cooker hood and dishwasher (approx. 3m new wiring to be chased in)
Ta,
Jonny
I've heard rumour that some unscrupulous people are buying the old colour wiring off Ebay and installing it themselves, and insisting it has been there ten years already........ ;-)
I was lucky, as my nephew is a licensed sparky, and he did all the special stuff with my garage, and signed it off, tested it, applied for the certification etc. And only asked £40 for it.
I bunged him £100, but I'd have been happy with £200 or more if he'd asked, as he spent two full days on the job, even after I had run most of the wires, conduit, socket bases, all the 'unskilled' grunt work.
Ask around, see if a family member or relative is a sparky, cash in hand, no questions answered type stuff.
When my certificate came back there were none of the comprehensive details on it we'd supplied. It just said a new spur had been run out to the garage.
I was lucky, as my nephew is a licensed sparky, and he did all the special stuff with my garage, and signed it off, tested it, applied for the certification etc. And only asked £40 for it.
I bunged him £100, but I'd have been happy with £200 or more if he'd asked, as he spent two full days on the job, even after I had run most of the wires, conduit, socket bases, all the 'unskilled' grunt work.
Ask around, see if a family member or relative is a sparky, cash in hand, no questions answered type stuff.
When my certificate came back there were none of the comprehensive details on it we'd supplied. It just said a new spur had been run out to the garage.
Ferg said:
How do you know what you do is safe? Surely that's the question. Are you testing earth loop impedence etc? If you are, and have the kit to do it, why not get Part'P' registered yourself?
Because I'm an electronics engineer and just cannot be arsed to get any sparky quals !Have the regs changed again ?, last time I looked I thought you could still do your own stuff but not others ?
And the really so called dangerous three phase stuff wasn't regulated !
I can understand why the colour scheme was harmonised within the EU, but I've had the odd bit (a lot) of repair work on expensive industrial kit due to blue going from a phase colour to being neutral.
I'm having an extension built and have been quoted £90 per downlighter, £65 per double switched socket, £450 for a fusebox. All plus VAT of course.
You'd think this is taking the pee but all five quotes I got were similar. I make that £50/hour or £400/day, and I can't understand why.
If you inform building regs before you start that you're going to do the work, and follow BS whatever-it-is guidelines, they'll only charge you a couple of hundred to inspect it and the parts are cheap as anything from Screwfix.
You'd think this is taking the pee but all five quotes I got were similar. I make that £50/hour or £400/day, and I can't understand why.
If you inform building regs before you start that you're going to do the work, and follow BS whatever-it-is guidelines, they'll only charge you a couple of hundred to inspect it and the parts are cheap as anything from Screwfix.
-Pete- said:
You'd think this is taking the pee but all five quotes I got were similar. I make that £50/hour or £400/day, and I can't understand why.
Because ..... it allows sparkies to extract the urine.Thats the sort of charges you would get from industrial electronics engineers rather than some "erbert" with a van and a pair of steps .
I use some industrial sparkies to connect up kit I've built, not poxy house bashers, and they don't charge that much.
Its a licence to print money, like many things noo labour
Jonny,
I deal with electrical/building projects in Mayfair etc so my prices are allot higher than 1 man bands due to the size of my company.
You will get a local electrician complete this for around £300 all in, which is based on 2 visits.
There is no need to buy old harmonised cable as the brown and blue T&E you now buy came out prior to part P being enforced.
What should of happened is the new harmonised cable and Part P bought into force at the same time, so installations are clearly indentified on age.
Look if you have got a electronics background i would just give it a go.
When selling the house i have never known this to be bought up. If the dwelling has had a extension etc then yes this would be raised by any good solicitor prior to purchase.
Guys,
Is a electrician really expensive?
He comes to your house, he has insurances along with over heads, he has tools, he will go and get material, he will front the money for any labour and material then invoice you.
There are car garages with £160 per hour charges, commercial solicitors at £280 per hour, private doctors exceeding both of them.
And to top it off those 3 professions you visit them!!!
I can get something working with a bit of bell wire, it will work but is it safe?
Part P is meant to tighten up the industry, however there are still cowboys getting certification and lashing stuff in!
I deal with electrical/building projects in Mayfair etc so my prices are allot higher than 1 man bands due to the size of my company.
You will get a local electrician complete this for around £300 all in, which is based on 2 visits.
There is no need to buy old harmonised cable as the brown and blue T&E you now buy came out prior to part P being enforced.
What should of happened is the new harmonised cable and Part P bought into force at the same time, so installations are clearly indentified on age.
Look if you have got a electronics background i would just give it a go.
When selling the house i have never known this to be bought up. If the dwelling has had a extension etc then yes this would be raised by any good solicitor prior to purchase.
Guys,
Is a electrician really expensive?
He comes to your house, he has insurances along with over heads, he has tools, he will go and get material, he will front the money for any labour and material then invoice you.
There are car garages with £160 per hour charges, commercial solicitors at £280 per hour, private doctors exceeding both of them.
And to top it off those 3 professions you visit them!!!
I can get something working with a bit of bell wire, it will work but is it safe?
Part P is meant to tighten up the industry, however there are still cowboys getting certification and lashing stuff in!
-Pete- said:
I'm having an extension built and have been quoted £90 per downlighter, £65 per double switched socket, £450 for a fusebox. All plus VAT of course.
You'd think this is taking the pee but all five quotes I got were similar. I make that £50/hour or £400/day, and I can't understand why.
If you inform building regs before you start that you're going to do the work, and follow BS whatever-it-is guidelines, they'll only charge you a couple of hundred to inspect it and the parts are cheap as anything from Screwfix.
But like I did, you can install the light fittings, cut the spotlight holes, fix up the fusebox, run the wires etc. You don't want to pay a guy £50 an hour to screw switch boxes down. Do as much grunt work as you can, then if your sparky charges by the hour you can keep the costs down.You'd think this is taking the pee but all five quotes I got were similar. I make that £50/hour or £400/day, and I can't understand why.
If you inform building regs before you start that you're going to do the work, and follow BS whatever-it-is guidelines, they'll only charge you a couple of hundred to inspect it and the parts are cheap as anything from Screwfix.
dafydd2008 said:
Is a electrician really expensive?
He comes to your house, he has insurances along with over heads, he has tools, he will go and get material, he will front the money for any labour and material then invoice you.
There are car garages with £160 per hour charges, commercial solicitors at £280 per hour, private doctors exceeding both of them.
And to top it off those 3 professions you visit them!!!
The fact you visit them shows they have overheads, which can be quite substantial if they're running a surgery. Solicitors and doctors have also invested rather more time and money in training and qualifications that the average sparky. If you think these are a fair comparison I'm afraid you're deluding yourself.He comes to your house, he has insurances along with over heads, he has tools, he will go and get material, he will front the money for any labour and material then invoice you.
There are car garages with £160 per hour charges, commercial solicitors at £280 per hour, private doctors exceeding both of them.
And to top it off those 3 professions you visit them!!!
GreenV8S said:
dafydd2008 said:
Is a electrician really expensive?
He comes to your house, he has insurances along with over heads, he has tools, he will go and get material, he will front the money for any labour and material then invoice you.
There are car garages with £160 per hour charges, commercial solicitors at £280 per hour, private doctors exceeding both of them.
And to top it off those 3 professions you visit them!!!
The fact you visit them shows they have overheads, which can be quite substantial if they're running a surgery. Solicitors and doctors have also invested rather more time and money in training and qualifications that the average sparky. If you think these are a fair comparison I'm afraid you're deluding yourself.He comes to your house, he has insurances along with over heads, he has tools, he will go and get material, he will front the money for any labour and material then invoice you.
There are car garages with £160 per hour charges, commercial solicitors at £280 per hour, private doctors exceeding both of them.
And to top it off those 3 professions you visit them!!!
I'm not allowed to put an additional to put an additional power point in my kitchen without a government-approved inspector checking it at considerable expense. The inspector, of course does not need to much about electrics, mere has to have gone on an expensive course, seemingly only provided by selected government (and labour party financial supporters)....
Where is the value add?
Anyone who thinks that DIY electrics, plumbing, gas work shouldn't be regulated obviously hasn't seen quite how dangerous it can be. For every competent DIYer there are 10 have-a-go-bodgers.
If there's some alternative to regulating ALL of it, I'm sure we'd love to see it implemented.
If there's some alternative to regulating ALL of it, I'm sure we'd love to see it implemented.
The problem is a government approved inspector can visit site in order to check, however with cables in chases etc he is only looking at a completed job.
The installer could of gone diagonal causing later problems such as the one, many years ago and the sole reason Part P was introduced.
The installer could of gone diagonal causing later problems such as the one, many years ago and the sole reason Part P was introduced.
Ta for the replies, Dafydd in particular for giving a professional's perspective on it
All things considered it looks like the DIY route is gonna be the way to go, I just can't justify spending 10 times the cost of materials on having someone install it for me just to get a nice bit of paper at the end.
However, in a nod to the law I've ordered a (probably mildly dodgy) 17th Edition wiring regs DVD off eBay, in case there's any oddball requirements for positioning stuff in kitchens. I'm a degree-qualified electrical engineer working in the electricity supply industry so IMHO have sufficient knowledge to install and test house wiring safely - and as a bonus I have access to gear such as earth-loop impedance testers and insulation resistance testers.
Bring on the hammering!
All things considered it looks like the DIY route is gonna be the way to go, I just can't justify spending 10 times the cost of materials on having someone install it for me just to get a nice bit of paper at the end.
However, in a nod to the law I've ordered a (probably mildly dodgy) 17th Edition wiring regs DVD off eBay, in case there's any oddball requirements for positioning stuff in kitchens. I'm a degree-qualified electrical engineer working in the electricity supply industry so IMHO have sufficient knowledge to install and test house wiring safely - and as a bonus I have access to gear such as earth-loop impedance testers and insulation resistance testers.
Bring on the hammering!
Jonny_ said:
Ta for the replies, Dafydd in particular for giving a professional's perspective on it
All things considered it looks like the DIY route is gonna be the way to go, I just can't justify spending 10 times the cost of materials on having someone install it for me just to get a nice bit of paper at the end.
However, in a nod to the law I've ordered a (probably mildly dodgy) 17th Edition wiring regs DVD off eBay, in case there's any oddball requirements for positioning stuff in kitchens. I'm a degree-qualified electrical engineer working in the electricity supply industry so IMHO have sufficient knowledge to install and test house wiring safely - and as a bonus I have access to gear such as earth-loop impedance testers and insulation resistance testers.
Bring on the hammering!
Good Man!! Leave the test gear at work, you're only installing some sockets. All things considered it looks like the DIY route is gonna be the way to go, I just can't justify spending 10 times the cost of materials on having someone install it for me just to get a nice bit of paper at the end.
However, in a nod to the law I've ordered a (probably mildly dodgy) 17th Edition wiring regs DVD off eBay, in case there's any oddball requirements for positioning stuff in kitchens. I'm a degree-qualified electrical engineer working in the electricity supply industry so IMHO have sufficient knowledge to install and test house wiring safely - and as a bonus I have access to gear such as earth-loop impedance testers and insulation resistance testers.
Bring on the hammering!
GreenV8S said:
dafydd2008 said:
Is a electrician really expensive?
He comes to your house, he has insurances along with over heads, he has tools, he will go and get material, he will front the money for any labour and material then invoice you.
There are car garages with £160 per hour charges, commercial solicitors at £280 per hour, private doctors exceeding both of them.
And to top it off those 3 professions you visit them!!!
The fact you visit them shows they have overheads, which can be quite substantial if they're running a surgery. Solicitors and doctors have also invested rather more time and money in training and qualifications that the average sparky. If you think these are a fair comparison I'm afraid you're deluding yourself.He comes to your house, he has insurances along with over heads, he has tools, he will go and get material, he will front the money for any labour and material then invoice you.
There are car garages with £160 per hour charges, commercial solicitors at £280 per hour, private doctors exceeding both of them.
And to top it off those 3 professions you visit them!!!
4 Years carrying out a apprenticeship, then further ongoing course’s in order to keep up with current legistration.
With regards to overheads, i have offices, i have storage, i have admin staff, i have site operatives, i have vans etc and i visit clients site's in order for work.
I pay over 15K a year in insurance alone, however when i visit my solicitor i pay £280 plus for a letter to be written, hmmm????
I am not complaining just clearly stating a point that other industry’s are either inline or above the electrical industry.
Jonny_ said:
Ta for the replies, Dafydd in particular for giving a professional's perspective on it
All things considered it looks like the DIY route is gonna be the way to go, I just can't justify spending 10 times the cost of materials on having someone install it for me just to get a nice bit of paper at the end.
However, in a nod to the law I've ordered a (probably mildly dodgy) 17th Edition wiring regs DVD off eBay, in case there's any oddball requirements for positioning stuff in kitchens. I'm a degree-qualified electrical engineer working in the electricity supply industry so IMHO have sufficient knowledge to install and test house wiring safely - and as a bonus I have access to gear such as earth-loop impedance testers and insulation resistance testers.
Bring on the hammering!
Jonny,All things considered it looks like the DIY route is gonna be the way to go, I just can't justify spending 10 times the cost of materials on having someone install it for me just to get a nice bit of paper at the end.
However, in a nod to the law I've ordered a (probably mildly dodgy) 17th Edition wiring regs DVD off eBay, in case there's any oddball requirements for positioning stuff in kitchens. I'm a degree-qualified electrical engineer working in the electricity supply industry so IMHO have sufficient knowledge to install and test house wiring safely - and as a bonus I have access to gear such as earth-loop impedance testers and insulation resistance testers.
Bring on the hammering!
As you are in the industry you will have knowledge of what you are doing, so personally feel you know what you would be doing.
If you were a admin worker with no knowledge then it would be a no no!
Best of luck and any porblems please let me know.
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