Retrospective planning woes
Discussion
Evening all. Posting under a different username as I'd rather this topic not be googleable via my username.
I purchased a property last year that I renovated. The house is on a slightly sloping site. The renovations created quite a lot of building rubble (roof tiles, bricks etc). Rather than go to the expense of removing this from site I constructed a retaining wall and infilled with this material. This was compacted, topped off with stone and block paved giving a very nice level patio. I was planning to build steps down onto the garden with raised planters either side.
My neighbour never mentioned any issue with what I was doing and I was unaware that this required any form of planning consent. He subsequently told me after I had finished that he was not happy and would be reporting what I had done to the planners. I have since become aware that he has managed to p
s off pretty much everyone in the street in one way or another.
The planning department wrote to me telling me that what I had done did indeed require planning permission and shortly afterwards I submitted a full plans retrospective application. This was in May.
I have this week received their decision which is a refusal on the grounds of excessive finished height and projection.
I am therefore faced with the prospect of removing a very large quantity of material from my garden, demolishing a garage and then having to put in its place something else. As you can imagine the cost will run into many thousands of pounds.
This is something that I simply do not have the money to do at the moment. If it has to be done, I will of course have it done but I need to buy time.
What I need to know is what is the best way of drawing out the process enabling me to save up. I don't want the council turning up, doing the job and sending me an invoice.
The accompanying notes to the refusal offer little help.
Can I submit a revised scheme. This would obviously be the best route as if I could modify the development slightly it would be beneficial rather than complete removal.
After this can I appeal?
If anyone could help I would really appreciate it. Not trying to flout any laws or upset anyone (maybe my neighbour a little
), just buy a little time.
I purchased a property last year that I renovated. The house is on a slightly sloping site. The renovations created quite a lot of building rubble (roof tiles, bricks etc). Rather than go to the expense of removing this from site I constructed a retaining wall and infilled with this material. This was compacted, topped off with stone and block paved giving a very nice level patio. I was planning to build steps down onto the garden with raised planters either side.
My neighbour never mentioned any issue with what I was doing and I was unaware that this required any form of planning consent. He subsequently told me after I had finished that he was not happy and would be reporting what I had done to the planners. I have since become aware that he has managed to p
s off pretty much everyone in the street in one way or another.The planning department wrote to me telling me that what I had done did indeed require planning permission and shortly afterwards I submitted a full plans retrospective application. This was in May.
I have this week received their decision which is a refusal on the grounds of excessive finished height and projection.
I am therefore faced with the prospect of removing a very large quantity of material from my garden, demolishing a garage and then having to put in its place something else. As you can imagine the cost will run into many thousands of pounds.
This is something that I simply do not have the money to do at the moment. If it has to be done, I will of course have it done but I need to buy time.
What I need to know is what is the best way of drawing out the process enabling me to save up. I don't want the council turning up, doing the job and sending me an invoice.
The accompanying notes to the refusal offer little help.
Can I submit a revised scheme. This would obviously be the best route as if I could modify the development slightly it would be beneficial rather than complete removal.
After this can I appeal?
If anyone could help I would really appreciate it. Not trying to flout any laws or upset anyone (maybe my neighbour a little
), just buy a little time.Talk to them.
I don't know, on the face of it, that you can do anything other than comply.
They will undoubtedly have a clear idea of exactly what the infringement is.
One you are clear about actions acceptable to the planning department, you can proceed with the work. If you are funds limited, then demolition, is unlikely to be *that* expensive.
If mere demolition is satisfactory to the planners, that's probably the first step.
If demolition is acceptable to them, then be sure to point out that your financial circumstances may lead to the site becoming a health and safety problem.
I don't know, on the face of it, that you can do anything other than comply.
They will undoubtedly have a clear idea of exactly what the infringement is.
One you are clear about actions acceptable to the planning department, you can proceed with the work. If you are funds limited, then demolition, is unlikely to be *that* expensive.
If mere demolition is satisfactory to the planners, that's probably the first step.
If demolition is acceptable to them, then be sure to point out that your financial circumstances may lead to the site becoming a health and safety problem.
planningwoes said:
Can I submit a revised scheme. This would obviously be the best route as if I could modify the development slightly it would be beneficial rather than complete removal.
After this can I appeal?
You could, and should submit the revised application and the appeal in parallel.After this can I appeal?
The appeal will focus the Planning Department's mind (lost appeal decisions reflect badly on their performance scores, so they may well negotiate an approval on the revised application in return for you withdrawing the appeal) and, at the worst, if the appeal is refused the appeals inspector should give clear reasons for his decision that may allow you to submit revised proposals that are acceptable. It will also serve to stall their enforcement process slightly (they are unlikely to proceed with enforcement action against you whilst the appeal is pending).
Before submitting the revised application, however, speak to the Planning Officer who handled the original retrospective application and ask him or her if they can give you a better steer on what the would find acceptable by way of a compromise.The revised application will be free of charge (you get a 'free go' on an application of similar nature within 12 months of an original application).
Cheers Sam, was hoping you might pop your head in.
From reading the attached guidance notes it says that 'householder appeals' (I presume mine will be one of these) should be submitted within 12 weeks.
So I should therefore...
Write to the officer and ask what revisions to the scheme they would recommend to make the scheme acceptable.
Afterwards, at the same time submit a revised application along with an appeal to the current refusal?
From reading the attached guidance notes it says that 'householder appeals' (I presume mine will be one of these) should be submitted within 12 weeks.
So I should therefore...
Write to the officer and ask what revisions to the scheme they would recommend to make the scheme acceptable.
Afterwards, at the same time submit a revised application along with an appeal to the current refusal?
planningwoes said:
So I should therefore...
Write to the officer and ask what revisions to the scheme they would recommend to make the scheme acceptable?
Phone (or even make an appointment to discuss face to face, if they are willing to do so) in the first instance:Write to the officer and ask what revisions to the scheme they would recommend to make the scheme acceptable?
- Planning Officers tend to be quite busy (or think they are ), so don't tend to respond very quickly when it involves getting their thumb out of their arse and writing a letter.
- All Local Authority Officers are paranoid about accountability, so are likely to be far more cagey about giving written advice that can be held against them than giving verbal advice, that they can deny later. You can always record the conversation then confirm it back to them in writing with amazing, word-perfect recall from memory, if you need to.
- Letters are more impersonal. People are more inclined to be friendly and reasonable when you talk to them.
planningwoes said:
Afterwards, at the same time submit a revised application along with an appeal to the current refusal?
This will depend on the advice and attitude you get from the Planning Officer when you ask why for more detailed guidance on why the application was refused. With the best will in the world, an Appeal will piss the Officer off to some extent, because;(a) it causes them a lot of extra work that they've got to deal with in a short timescale and;
(b) it's clearly questioning their professional judgement on recommending refusal on the original application, and nobody much likes that!
If the Officer is friendly and helpful and the advice they give suggests that the matter can easily be resolved by a revised application, you may want to go down that route and try to avoid the appeal.
If they are negative and unhelpful, appeal and re-submit the application in parallel and let the Appeals Inspector sort it out.
If they are somewhere in between, submit the revised application but apologetically point out to them that you will also be obliged to submit an appeal on the original refusal before it 'times out', in order to protect your own interests, reluctant as you are to cause them extra work.
Was the original refusal decision made by Planning committee or at an Officer Delegated level?
If the former, it will be worth getting hold of the Committee Report (usually downloadable from the Council's 'Committees' web page), as it will include the specific report the officer gave as guidance to the elected members of the Planning Committee, giving the reasons for a recommendation of refusal.
If you want me to take a look at the refusal notice/committee report to see whether there's anything else I can divine from the entrails, in confidence, mail me via my profile and I'll see what I can do.
. I'll pull together all the relevant information and PM it to you. If you get a chance to look over it and give me a few pointers I'd really appreciate it.Sam_68 said:
Before submitting the revised application, however, speak to the Planning Officer who handled the original retrospective application and ask him or her if they can give you a better steer on what the would find acceptable by way of a compromise.The revised application will be free of charge (you get a 'free go' on an application of similar nature within 12 months of an original application).
That is what I would do.Although my opinion ref appealing at this stage differs greatly from Sam68's.
It is likely that the present scheme fails on a number of issues and would be easy for a council to defend their original decision . Get an appeal dismissed and the ball will start rolling quicker than you want .
Speak with them.
Ensure you understand the problems with the scheme and be objective.
Make some amendments to the proposal and then resubmit , if that then gets a refusal , at least you have given yourself a good chance of appealing succesfully .
Most important thing , GET SOME HELP , before you do anything else , if you have no experience in such applications then you are respectfully out of your depth .
.I see a number of applications that were never fit for approval on the day they were submitted .
What part of the country are you in ? edit , just seen Midlands
Edited by Busamav on Tuesday 17th November 08:51
Edited by Busamav on Tuesday 17th November 08:51
Busamav said:
...my opinion ref appealing at this stage differs greatly from Sam68's.
...Get an appeal dismissed and the ball will start rolling quicker than you want .herbialfa said:
Timescale wise another application will be the 8-10 weeks. An appeal is up to 6 months.
Precisely. It's all about timing.I should stress that I wouldn't necessarily suggest that an appeal is made - it will depend on the attitude and response you get from the LPA - but if you do choose to go dowm the appeal routs, it needs to be timed to deliver maximum influence on the process of the revised application.
Edited by Sam_68 on Tuesday 17th November 18:32
herbialfa said:
Timescale wise another application will be the 8-10 weeks. An appeal is up to 6 months.
Hahahah.... six months? I guess it could be that since new building has been rather quiet for the last few months, but ours took 14 months to be heard.I note that you start off your story with 'I just built a bit of patio to hide some rubble', but halfway through the planning refusal requires you knock down a garage. Where did that come from?
You have very little to negotiate with planners. It really doesn't matter to them whether you do or don't have somewhere to live, or build a particular building etc. So they can't easily be swayed by the things that will be worrying you. There's no point in giving them any sort of sob story, or trying to make out that a full renovation is just a little bit of gardening.
They do have to follow their rules and guidelines though, so firstly follow the paperwork route (which takes months whichever way you do it), and speak to them as others have said to find out what exactly is the issue. Sometimes it can help to let them focus on one thing (any given officer tends to find a pet thing to worry about), and be as helpful as you can to fix that - whilst making sure all the other details of the application are as far in your favour as you can get them without taking the p***.
You will get a lot further talking to everybody (including your parish council and neighbours) face to face than you will writing letters. Don't try to force people to be on your side - just understand what everybody wants and who is going to support you. If you're seen as responsive and approachable, you'll be given a lot more slack.
Finally, once you do have permission, I'd dig up that rubble and build the ugliest rockery you can right next to your neighbours border.
OP if you want to PM me the details as well I'll take a look, complete confidence.
Definitely, definitely talk to the Case Officer over the phone, this will help on all fronts. Tell them that you are looking at their reasons for refusal and will be submitting a revised application soon.
You mention a retaining wall, so I guess that you're on a sloping plot.. You then, later, mention demolishing a garage... This didn't seem to be mentioned as part of the original issue...
In IMHO an appeal should only be considered if a revised application is refused. Of course how far you revise is up to you.
A "professional" being onboard would help, but shouldn't cost a lot, depending on the amount of work they will need to do to submit a revised application or, if necessary, appeal paperwork.
As has been mentioned Planning Officers usually only react to the processes that they get evaluated on.
Definitely, definitely talk to the Case Officer over the phone, this will help on all fronts. Tell them that you are looking at their reasons for refusal and will be submitting a revised application soon.
You mention a retaining wall, so I guess that you're on a sloping plot.. You then, later, mention demolishing a garage... This didn't seem to be mentioned as part of the original issue...
In IMHO an appeal should only be considered if a revised application is refused. Of course how far you revise is up to you.
A "professional" being onboard would help, but shouldn't cost a lot, depending on the amount of work they will need to do to submit a revised application or, if necessary, appeal paperwork.
As has been mentioned Planning Officers usually only react to the processes that they get evaluated on.
Once again, thanks for the replies.
In response to a couple of queries, yes the site slopes away from the rear of the house. When I purchased the house there was an original retaining wall and built onto the hardstanding was a delapidated concrete double garage. I have not raised the height of the original but I have extended outwards. The wall was failing, the patio a mess and the garage fit for the skip.
I built a new wall further back, infilled and had a new concrete garage built. The new garage sits partially on the new infill. Hence I can't remove the patio or reinstate it to how it was without tearing down the £5k garage. The size of the new garage falls within permitted development - I spoke to planning to confirm this prior to ordering and having it installed.
I have had dealings with both planners and building control in the past and have found them to be reasonable people. I am however out of my depth here. I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that I am going to have to do something - what I am looking to do is limit the damage. Maximise the time scale for me to do the works and minimise the amount of work I have to do.
Having looked the the public access planning site today the refusal was a delegated decision.
As has been said my first port of call is to call the officer and ask what revisions I can make to the scheme to make it more attractive to her.
To the chaps who have offered to take a look, that really is above and beyond - thanks. I shall PM you what I have.
In response to a couple of queries, yes the site slopes away from the rear of the house. When I purchased the house there was an original retaining wall and built onto the hardstanding was a delapidated concrete double garage. I have not raised the height of the original but I have extended outwards. The wall was failing, the patio a mess and the garage fit for the skip.
I built a new wall further back, infilled and had a new concrete garage built. The new garage sits partially on the new infill. Hence I can't remove the patio or reinstate it to how it was without tearing down the £5k garage. The size of the new garage falls within permitted development - I spoke to planning to confirm this prior to ordering and having it installed.
I have had dealings with both planners and building control in the past and have found them to be reasonable people. I am however out of my depth here. I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that I am going to have to do something - what I am looking to do is limit the damage. Maximise the time scale for me to do the works and minimise the amount of work I have to do.
Having looked the the public access planning site today the refusal was a delegated decision.
As has been said my first port of call is to call the officer and ask what revisions I can make to the scheme to make it more attractive to her.
To the chaps who have offered to take a look, that really is above and beyond - thanks. I shall PM you what I have.
As an aside, I've just been looking at my application online on the planning portal. There are now lots of associated documents with my application that were not available to view prior to the decision.
There is a referral letter from my local council stating that they had no objections providing the neighbour consultation went without issue.
There is a referral letter from my local council stating that they had no objections providing the neighbour consultation went without issue.
Can I echo what's been said about talking to the planning officer, stressing how much you want to make this all acceptable to them and how much you regret stuffing it up initially. Avoid looking arrogant and be very very nice.
Also talk to your neighbours, these are the people who can make or break this for you. It amazes me that people aren't upfront and I think it is often nerves rather than arrogance but it does come across as arrogance.
We have just built a Grandpa annexe which takes us much closer to the boundary with our detached neighbour, we took the plans to the neighbour first and talked to them about any concerns or issues that they had. They felt that they had been informed and they didn't object.
Getting the planning officer onside was helpful for us especially when the Parish Council threw a hissy fit on us!
Also talk to your neighbours, these are the people who can make or break this for you. It amazes me that people aren't upfront and I think it is often nerves rather than arrogance but it does come across as arrogance.
We have just built a Grandpa annexe which takes us much closer to the boundary with our detached neighbour, we took the plans to the neighbour first and talked to them about any concerns or issues that they had. They felt that they had been informed and they didn't object.
Getting the planning officer onside was helpful for us especially when the Parish Council threw a hissy fit on us!
Piglet said:
Can I echo what's been said about talking to the planning officer, stressing how much you want to make this all acceptable to them and how much you regret stuffing it up initially.
That is my plan.With regards to talking to the neighbour in question? The last time we spoke he accused me of being a paedofile (his words, not mine) as my garage which has windows at the back would potentially allow me to watch his young daughter sunbathing in their garden.
His house is currently up for sale. I feel like buying a few rusty transits to park on my drive which are 'awaiting restoration'.
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