Diesel v Electric Trains
Discussion
Having spent another morning sitting on a diesel train which couldn't go anywhere because all the the electric trains in front of it had got stuck in the snow I thought I'd email Southern Railways and suggest that de-electrify the ast Grinstead Line and return it to diesel operation!
On the Uckfield line we have these lovely trains http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_17... whilst on the East Grinstead line they have these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_37...
So what is the cost per mile of running each time of train? Which is cheaper? After all if the diesels cost a lot more to run there is no hope!
On the Uckfield line we have these lovely trains http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_17... whilst on the East Grinstead line they have these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_37...
So what is the cost per mile of running each time of train? Which is cheaper? After all if the diesels cost a lot more to run there is no hope!
Industry magazine i have read, of the top of my head, states that it costs 0.8p per mile to run a electrified train.
I think this is right. But don't quote me on it.
Trains are cheap, using stations are not.
I have no idea why the electric trains would get stuck in comparison to a diesel, maybe the diesel locos weigh more and get more traction?
Frozen pantographs?
I'm guessing here.
I think this is right. But don't quote me on it.
Trains are cheap, using stations are not.
I have no idea why the electric trains would get stuck in comparison to a diesel, maybe the diesel locos weigh more and get more traction?
Frozen pantographs?
I'm guessing here.
Ross1988 said:
I have no idea why the electric trains would get stuck in comparison to a diesel, maybe the diesel locos weigh more and get more traction?
Pretty good guess. Diesels are heavier, hence better traction. Even better were the old steam trains - which also had sand boxes above the driving wheels to avoid slip on the rails, and were, basically, over double the weight of a diesel.. Which is why in the old days, trains continued to run despite the snow! They simply battered their way through.
It was an educated one!
After you mentioned slippage on the tracks and the weight, did you see the Top Gear with Clarkson on the steam train? The power involved in that wheel slippage must be immense.
Can someone tell me the class of train the Top Gear chaps used? Would like to know more about it.
After you mentioned slippage on the tracks and the weight, did you see the Top Gear with Clarkson on the steam train? The power involved in that wheel slippage must be immense.
Can someone tell me the class of train the Top Gear chaps used? Would like to know more about it.
Ross1988 said:
It was an educated one!
After you mentioned slippage on the tracks and the weight, did you see the Top Gear with Clarkson on the steam train? The power involved in that wheel slippage must be immense.
Can someone tell me the class of train the Top Gear chaps used? Would like to know more about it.
JC told you in the program. Peppercorn class. http://www.a1steam.com/After you mentioned slippage on the tracks and the weight, did you see the Top Gear with Clarkson on the steam train? The power involved in that wheel slippage must be immense.
Can someone tell me the class of train the Top Gear chaps used? Would like to know more about it.
Steam wasn't always so surefooted though (as seen in the TG race).
A video to bring tears to the eyes of anyone with an interest in engineering is this one of Peppercorn A2 pacific Blue Peter;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjsNbzg1UaI
although to be fair, that was an issue with the crew rather than the locomotive.
Electric traction has been seen as a replacement or alternative for diesel (remember, mostly diesel electric) since really before the end of steam. There are many benefits (to the TOC) such as cheaper maintenance, greater reliability and of course the modern favourite, the CO2 card. Note, benefits to the TOC, not necessarily the passenger. The issue isn't with the train, I'd suggest it's more to do with the withdrawal/scale down of the support of the infrastructure (sandite, third rail de-icing etc).
A video to bring tears to the eyes of anyone with an interest in engineering is this one of Peppercorn A2 pacific Blue Peter;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjsNbzg1UaI
although to be fair, that was an issue with the crew rather than the locomotive.
Wikipedia said:
1994 accident
In 1994, during the first run of a preserved steam locomotive from Edinburgh to Newcastle, 60532 suffered extensive damage during a catastrophic uncontrolled wheelslip.
During an unscheduled stop at Durham station the inexperienced footplate crew overfilled the boiler. As the train departed south across Durham viaduct an initial slip was poorly controlled by the driver, who then reopened the regulator too early, probably worried about stalling on the bank up to Relly Mill. The force of the initial slip caused the boiler to prime, carrying water over into the regulator valve and jamming it open. This allowed passage of steam through to the cylinders, perpetuating the slip and accelerating the driving wheels. When the driver attempted to wind the reversing gear back into mid-position to halt the slip, the force of the boiler spun it into full-forward position, and the driving wheels reached a rotational speed of 140mph before the cylinder heads blew off and the motion disintegrated.
The driver suffered major injury to his arms, as a result of the screw reversing lever whipping around when he released it. The accident brought to light the importance of traincrews being trained on the specific locomotives they were driving, rather than simply a common general instruction on steam locomotives. Neither the driver or fireman had ever worked 60532 before, and were unaware of the locomotive's sensitivity to priming, which led to the accident.
Post 1994
The damage to the motion, cylinders and driving wheels was devastating. Moved to Thornaby MPD, the repair work took 18 months to complete.[1] 60532 was then moved again to the NYMR for running in. It resumed its mainline career in November 1996, working a charter from Middlesbrough to Skipton via Newcastle and Carlisle.[1] In 1998 60532 ran an Edinburgh to London excursion to mark the 40th anniversary of the Blue Peter TV programme, passing through Durham on the way.
60532's mainline boiler certificate expired in September 2001 by which time it was again based at the NYMR, where it worked until the end of the 2002 season.[1] It was subsequently displayed at the Darlington Railway Centre and Museum. On 22 May 2007 BBC Look North News reported that the locomotive was being moved into storage in Chesterfield, due to the renovation of the museum, and would not be returning.
60532 is now based at Barrow Hill Engine Shed in Derbyshire, with the NELPG looking to raise £600,000 for restoration of the locomotive to main line running.[1]
60532 has been repainted in British Railways apple green livery, similar to that now used on the A1 Class 60163 Tornado.
Back O/T;In 1994, during the first run of a preserved steam locomotive from Edinburgh to Newcastle, 60532 suffered extensive damage during a catastrophic uncontrolled wheelslip.
During an unscheduled stop at Durham station the inexperienced footplate crew overfilled the boiler. As the train departed south across Durham viaduct an initial slip was poorly controlled by the driver, who then reopened the regulator too early, probably worried about stalling on the bank up to Relly Mill. The force of the initial slip caused the boiler to prime, carrying water over into the regulator valve and jamming it open. This allowed passage of steam through to the cylinders, perpetuating the slip and accelerating the driving wheels. When the driver attempted to wind the reversing gear back into mid-position to halt the slip, the force of the boiler spun it into full-forward position, and the driving wheels reached a rotational speed of 140mph before the cylinder heads blew off and the motion disintegrated.
The driver suffered major injury to his arms, as a result of the screw reversing lever whipping around when he released it. The accident brought to light the importance of traincrews being trained on the specific locomotives they were driving, rather than simply a common general instruction on steam locomotives. Neither the driver or fireman had ever worked 60532 before, and were unaware of the locomotive's sensitivity to priming, which led to the accident.
Post 1994
The damage to the motion, cylinders and driving wheels was devastating. Moved to Thornaby MPD, the repair work took 18 months to complete.[1] 60532 was then moved again to the NYMR for running in. It resumed its mainline career in November 1996, working a charter from Middlesbrough to Skipton via Newcastle and Carlisle.[1] In 1998 60532 ran an Edinburgh to London excursion to mark the 40th anniversary of the Blue Peter TV programme, passing through Durham on the way.
60532's mainline boiler certificate expired in September 2001 by which time it was again based at the NYMR, where it worked until the end of the 2002 season.[1] It was subsequently displayed at the Darlington Railway Centre and Museum. On 22 May 2007 BBC Look North News reported that the locomotive was being moved into storage in Chesterfield, due to the renovation of the museum, and would not be returning.
60532 is now based at Barrow Hill Engine Shed in Derbyshire, with the NELPG looking to raise £600,000 for restoration of the locomotive to main line running.[1]
60532 has been repainted in British Railways apple green livery, similar to that now used on the A1 Class 60163 Tornado.
Electric traction has been seen as a replacement or alternative for diesel (remember, mostly diesel electric) since really before the end of steam. There are many benefits (to the TOC) such as cheaper maintenance, greater reliability and of course the modern favourite, the CO2 card. Note, benefits to the TOC, not necessarily the passenger. The issue isn't with the train, I'd suggest it's more to do with the withdrawal/scale down of the support of the infrastructure (sandite, third rail de-icing etc).
grumpyscot said:
Ross1988 said:
I have no idea why the electric trains would get stuck in comparison to a diesel, maybe the diesel locos weigh more and get more traction?
Pretty good guess. Diesels are heavier, hence better traction. Even better were the old steam trains - which also had sand boxes above the driving wheels to avoid slip on the rails, and were, basically, over double the weight of a diesel.. Which is why in the old days, trains continued to run despite the snow! They simply battered their way through.BigS said:
grumpyscot said:
Pretty good guess. Diesels are heavier, hence better traction. Even better were the old steam trains - which also had sand boxes above the driving wheels to avoid slip on the rails, and were, basically, over double the weight of a diesel.. Which is why in the old days, trains continued to run despite the snow! They simply battered their way through.
Funnily enough, last night, the old man was on about how around here they would run a train up and down the line through the night to keep it open.But I suppose it's too expensive or it's health and safety or the air intakes will clog up... always a reason not to do things...
Simpo Two said:
BigS said:
grumpyscot said:
Pretty good guess. Diesels are heavier, hence better traction. Even better were the old steam trains - which also had sand boxes above the driving wheels to avoid slip on the rails, and were, basically, over double the weight of a diesel.. Which is why in the old days, trains continued to run despite the snow! They simply battered their way through.
Funnily enough, last night, the old man was on about how around here they would run a train up and down the line through the night to keep it open.But I suppose it's too expensive or it's health and safety or the air intakes will clog up... always a reason not to do things...
Better one here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=urNv1PMLwHI&feature=re...
Simpo Two said:
Better one here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=urNv1PMLwHI&feature=re...
Thanks for that, it's just reminded me of a steam powered snow blower I saw on some program on Discovery a couple of years ago, if I remember rightly it was still being used in Alaska.Edit.
Can't find the one I'm thinking of on youtube, but did find this one instead http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPwPcb7CBgo
Edited by BigS on Thursday 14th January 19:48
bulb763 said:
Ross1988 said:
It was an educated one!
After you mentioned slippage on the tracks and the weight, did you see the Top Gear with Clarkson on the steam train? The power involved in that wheel slippage must be immense.
Can someone tell me the class of train the Top Gear chaps used? Would like to know more about it.
JC told you in the program. Peppercorn class. http://www.a1steam.com/After you mentioned slippage on the tracks and the weight, did you see the Top Gear with Clarkson on the steam train? The power involved in that wheel slippage must be immense.
Can someone tell me the class of train the Top Gear chaps used? Would like to know more about it.
grumpyscot said:
Ross1988 said:
I have no idea why the electric trains would get stuck in comparison to a diesel, maybe the diesel locos weigh more and get more traction?
Pretty good guess. Diesels are heavier, hence better traction. Even better were the old steam trains - which also had sand boxes above the driving wheels to avoid slip on the rails, and were, basically, over double the weight of a diesel.. Which is why in the old days, trains continued to run despite the snow! They simply battered their way through.As regards passenger comfort mentioned by someone else in the thread our diesels are definitely more comfortable than the electric trains running to East Grinstead.
Chrisgr31 said:
grumpyscot said:
Ross1988 said:
I have no idea why the electric trains would get stuck in comparison to a diesel, maybe the diesel locos weigh more and get more traction?
Pretty good guess. Diesels are heavier, hence better traction. Even better were the old steam trains - which also had sand boxes above the driving wheels to avoid slip on the rails, and were, basically, over double the weight of a diesel.. Which is why in the old days, trains continued to run despite the snow! They simply battered their way through.As regards passenger comfort mentioned by someone else in the thread our diesels are definitely more comfortable than the electric trains running to East Grinstead.
Unless on thinking about it, the ice shorted the circuit?
Anyone glad your got to home/work okay. Damn trains!
ashes said:
Used to have electro-diesels (Class 73 I think) that ran regular ice-breaker trains in bad weather. Sadly accountants can't comprehend keeping something you only use a bit, so they went.
I am sure there are good accountants.
They still have some Class 73's based at Eastleigh (i think) which are privately owned, they have been using them the past couple of weeks as ice breakers.I am sure there are good accountants.
Red Firecracker said:
A build up of ice on the juice rail results in intermittent to no contact and thus power. You then end up with the possible situation of a train stopping dead in section with the none of the shoes being in contact with the third rail.
Which, I presume, is why mainland Europe uses overhead lines?Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff