The state of UK's education and why employers are weary
Discussion
Good article in the Times about how PC and "fair-for-all" policies are slowly driving the employers to look out of GB's borders.
Most recent example: my team has just given 2 summer work placement positions to business schools students. Out of 37 applicants, 12 were foreign, all have gone through the first stage of the selection process (HR). Out of the 25 remaining Brits, 14 were rejected based on their spelling and syntax.
The work placement will include writing texts for brochures, in English first and then have them translated by an agency. So 1 part of the recruitment process was to write a short one page essay on a very simple subject. One of the HR lady here is Austrian, she felt really bad correcting British's students' copies and having to tell them that their basic writing skills weren't up to the required standards. "Would of", "Their/they're" etc... they were all in there.
Final result: 1xGerman boy and 1xEnglish girl got selected. Ironically, that girl is a student at... EM Lyon, France and receives regular English lessons from teachers who left the UK a while ago.
The allusion to the basic handshake and "hello, good morning sir" is also quite telling.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnist...
Real question is, what can be done? I have just become a father and I don't want my little girl to grow up thinking that all is fair and easy when in reality this sort of soft education do not prepare you for the outside world's reality.
edited because I wasn't paying attention
Most recent example: my team has just given 2 summer work placement positions to business schools students. Out of 37 applicants, 12 were foreign, all have gone through the first stage of the selection process (HR). Out of the 25 remaining Brits, 14 were rejected based on their spelling and syntax.
The work placement will include writing texts for brochures, in English first and then have them translated by an agency. So 1 part of the recruitment process was to write a short one page essay on a very simple subject. One of the HR lady here is Austrian, she felt really bad correcting British's students' copies and having to tell them that their basic writing skills weren't up to the required standards. "Would of", "Their/they're" etc... they were all in there.
Final result: 1xGerman boy and 1xEnglish girl got selected. Ironically, that girl is a student at... EM Lyon, France and receives regular English lessons from teachers who left the UK a while ago.
The allusion to the basic handshake and "hello, good morning sir" is also quite telling.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnist...
Real question is, what can be done? I have just become a father and I don't want my little girl to grow up thinking that all is fair and easy when in reality this sort of soft education do not prepare you for the outside world's reality.
edited because I wasn't paying attention
Edited by J B L on Monday 22 February 14:15
I would never claim to be proficient in written english. However, even when I was at secondary school teachers just didn't give a s
t.
Up until 6 months ago I had no idea about grammar and all the other stuff that comes with it. I don't even remember it being taught at school. I was by no stretch a bad kid whom skipped classes etc
I have just recently had to buy several books to teach it to myself all over again in order to pass some assessments. Luckily I scrapped a pass and hopefully the consequences will be life changing.
Private education is the only way forwards in my opinion if you truely want you children to be succesful.
Teachers in this day and age tend to be the students that failed 10 years ago. It's a downward spiral. I know several teachers and they all just fell into the roles as they had random degrees such as art anddidn't know what else to do.
They can barely look after themselve let alone teach.
EDIT: Even at University level written english is hardly checked. I passed with a 2:1 even with my terrible punctuation and grammar.
t.Up until 6 months ago I had no idea about grammar and all the other stuff that comes with it. I don't even remember it being taught at school. I was by no stretch a bad kid whom skipped classes etc
I have just recently had to buy several books to teach it to myself all over again in order to pass some assessments. Luckily I scrapped a pass and hopefully the consequences will be life changing.
Private education is the only way forwards in my opinion if you truely want you children to be succesful.
Teachers in this day and age tend to be the students that failed 10 years ago. It's a downward spiral. I know several teachers and they all just fell into the roles as they had random degrees such as art anddidn't know what else to do.
They can barely look after themselve let alone teach.
EDIT: Even at University level written english is hardly checked. I passed with a 2:1 even with my terrible punctuation and grammar.
Edited by GSP on Monday 22 February 14:46
J B L said:
Real question is, what can be done? I have just become a father and I don't want my little girl to grow up thinking that all is fair and easy when in reality this sort of soft education do (sic) not prepare you for the outside world's reality.
Send her to a private school.GSP said:
Private education is the only way forwards in my opinion if you truely want you children to be succesful.
Then you have the problem that universities are pressured into favouring state-schools over private-school, so you'll have to make sure they get 4As to get into a top university (or apply some bribes/nepotism) - a Future Fair For All my arse 
GSP said:
I would never claim to be proficient in written english. However, even when I was at secondary school teachers just didn't give a st.
Up until 6 months ago I had no idea about grammar and all the other stuff that comes with it. I don't even remember it being taught at school. I was by no stretch a bad kid whom skipped classes etc
I have just recently had to buy several books to teach it to myself all over again in order to pass some assessments. Luckily I scrapped a pass and hopefully the consequences will be life changing.
Private education is the only way forwards in my opinion if you truely want you children to be succesful.
Teachers in this day and age tend to be the students that failed 10 years ago. It's a downward spiral. I know several teachers and they all just fell into the roles as they had random degrees such as art anddidn't know what else to do.
They can barely look after themselve let alone teach.
EDIT: Even at University level written english is hardly checked. I passed with a 2:1 even with my terrible punctuation and grammar.
Only just obviously t.Up until 6 months ago I had no idea about grammar and all the other stuff that comes with it. I don't even remember it being taught at school. I was by no stretch a bad kid whom skipped classes etc
I have just recently had to buy several books to teach it to myself all over again in order to pass some assessments. Luckily I scrapped a pass and hopefully the consequences will be life changing.
Private education is the only way forwards in my opinion if you truely want you children to be succesful.
Teachers in this day and age tend to be the students that failed 10 years ago. It's a downward spiral. I know several teachers and they all just fell into the roles as they had random degrees such as art anddidn't know what else to do.
They can barely look after themselve let alone teach.
EDIT: Even at University level written english is hardly checked. I passed with a 2:1 even with my terrible punctuation and grammar.
Edited by GSP on Monday 22 February 14:46
maxrider said:
J B L said:
One of the HR lady here is Austrian, she felt really bad correcting British's students'
No, you weren't paying attention were you? 
even though I re-read the post I knew this would happen
GSP said:
Teachers in this day and age tend to be the students that failed 10 years ago. It's a downward spiral. I know several teachers and they all just fell into the roles as they had random degrees such as art anddidn't know what else to do.
They can barely look after themselve let alone teach.
EDIT: Even at University level written english is hardly checked. I passed with a 2:1 even with my terrible punctuation and grammar.
No, Teachers just can't penalise for poor spelling and grammer unless it changes the meaning of what has been written, otherwise someone could fail science for poor english skills and that would look bad for the school, the LEA, the Government etc.They can barely look after themselve let alone teach.
EDIT: Even at University level written english is hardly checked. I passed with a 2:1 even with my terrible punctuation and grammar.
Edited by GSP on Monday 22 February 14:46
bonsai said:
J B L said:
Real question is, what can be done? I have just become a father and I don't want my little girl to grow up thinking that all is fair and easy when in reality this sort of soft education do (sic) not prepare you for the outside world's reality.
Send her to a private school.GreenDog said:
GSP said:
I would never claim to be proficient in written english. However, even when I was at secondary school teachers just didn't give a st.
Up until 6 months ago I had no idea about grammar and all the other stuff that comes with it. I don't even remember it being taught at school. I was by no stretch a bad kid whom skipped classes etc
I have just recently had to buy several books to teach it to myself all over again in order to pass some assessments. Luckily I scrapped a pass and hopefully the consequences will be life changing.
Private education is the only way forwards in my opinion if you truely want you children to be succesful.
Teachers in this day and age tend to be the students that failed 10 years ago. It's a downward spiral. I know several teachers and they all just fell into the roles as they had random degrees such as art anddidn't know what else to do.
They can barely look after themselve let alone teach.
EDIT: Even at University level written english is hardly checked. I passed with a 2:1 even with my terrible punctuation and grammar.
Only just obviously t.Up until 6 months ago I had no idea about grammar and all the other stuff that comes with it. I don't even remember it being taught at school. I was by no stretch a bad kid whom skipped classes etc
I have just recently had to buy several books to teach it to myself all over again in order to pass some assessments. Luckily I scrapped a pass and hopefully the consequences will be life changing.
Private education is the only way forwards in my opinion if you truely want you children to be succesful.
Teachers in this day and age tend to be the students that failed 10 years ago. It's a downward spiral. I know several teachers and they all just fell into the roles as they had random degrees such as art anddidn't know what else to do.
They can barely look after themselve let alone teach.
EDIT: Even at University level written english is hardly checked. I passed with a 2:1 even with my terrible punctuation and grammar.
Edited by GSP on Monday 22 February 14:46
. I still have a lot to learn. To be fair though, 6 months ago absolutely none of the above would have made any sense.
To pass exams at the highest level, you must be able to interpret pretentious Shakespearean plays and monotonous Dickensian novels. You need not concern yourself with correct spelling, punctuation or grammar, since in an exam situation, they count for very little. Therefore, the teachers don't bother focusing on the important stuff. Ultimately, all schools care about are league tables and exam results. So, why bother spending time teaching S.P.A.G, when all the exam board cares about is what pseudo-intellectual babble the student can come up with for a two-hundred year old text?
I'm willing to wager that the OP's company isn't looking for somebody who can describe the intricacies of Twelfth Night or Romeo and Juliet. But, I imagine they are looking for somebody whose writing is intelligible/accurate. Shame the school system implies the exact opposite.
It's easy to blame the youth for their lack of writing skills, but the reality is that the older generation screwed up and skewed the syllabus and priorities.
Still, I shouldn't moan too much. When offered my last job, the chap remarked that mine was the only CV he'd seen in ages "which didn't have any spelling mistakes or grammatical errors".
I'm willing to wager that the OP's company isn't looking for somebody who can describe the intricacies of Twelfth Night or Romeo and Juliet. But, I imagine they are looking for somebody whose writing is intelligible/accurate. Shame the school system implies the exact opposite.
It's easy to blame the youth for their lack of writing skills, but the reality is that the older generation screwed up and skewed the syllabus and priorities.
Still, I shouldn't moan too much. When offered my last job, the chap remarked that mine was the only CV he'd seen in ages "which didn't have any spelling mistakes or grammatical errors".
The thing that scares me the most:
The teachers are no better.
Of the (literally) hundreds of teachers I interview every year, very few fill me with confidence and exude the obvious competence you would expect of the profession.
It starts and ends with the staff.
I don't have children, and never plan to. But if fate dictates that I have children in the future, they will 100% go to private school. To send them to comprehensive school round here (even those with glowing OFSTED reports) is to condemn them to failure.
Those bloody targets have to go, they need to get back to 'proper' education
Greg
The teachers are no better.
Of the (literally) hundreds of teachers I interview every year, very few fill me with confidence and exude the obvious competence you would expect of the profession.
It starts and ends with the staff.
I don't have children, and never plan to. But if fate dictates that I have children in the future, they will 100% go to private school. To send them to comprehensive school round here (even those with glowing OFSTED reports) is to condemn them to failure.
Those bloody targets have to go, they need to get back to 'proper' education
Greg
I have to agree that private schooling or home schooling are the best options. I felt let down by my education and now have to watch my younger brother doing pointless homework assignments that don't teach him anything (the teacher doesn't check and obviously doesn't correct any spelling or grammar mistakes amongst other things).
Now that I have a child I've thought more about this and because our current financial situation means that we probably won't be able to pay for private school, I am seriously considering home schooling.
The current system doesn't work, it encourages everyone to go to university, when not everyone is best suited to studying. Some people will never be academic and should be encouraged to achieve their potential in other things.
Now that I have a child I've thought more about this and because our current financial situation means that we probably won't be able to pay for private school, I am seriously considering home schooling.
The current system doesn't work, it encourages everyone to go to university, when not everyone is best suited to studying. Some people will never be academic and should be encouraged to achieve their potential in other things.
wiffmaster said:
Still, I shouldn't moan too much. When offered my last job, the chap remarked that mine was the only CV he'd seen in ages "which didn't have any spelling mistakes or grammatical errors".
Funny you should say that. In my last wage-slave job, I had to vet CVs before inviting potential employees to interview. On the last round of interviews I was involved in, I decided not to proceed to interview with any candidates whose CVs contained basic errors in spelling or grammar.Of 265 CVs, one got past this requirement. But the bloke hadn't read the job spec properly, so he wouldn't have been capable of doing the job anyway.
I ended up having to scrap that criterion pretty sharpish.
No matter what schools claim, spelling and grammar *are* important. They create an impression. Obvious typos ("hte", "webiste") are generally no problem - they happen. But nowadays you see basic grammatical errors all the time, even in newspapers. On a site like PH, which is essentially a place where people come to chat, then okay - the rules are slightly different and it's more relaxed. But in the Grauniad? Or on the BBC?
wiffmaster said:
Still, I shouldn't moan too much. When offered my last job, the chap remarked that mine was the only CV he'd seen in ages "which didn't have any spelling mistakes or grammatical errors".
I'm sure I'm not the only employer to receive a staggering number of CVs with basic spelling errors. Now I know that I'm not perfect, but it doesn't take much to double check your CV properly rather than rely on autocomplete and spell check left on American English.I've also seen people go overboard with the grammer. I had a girlfriend who was very generous, with her, commas,. It was just as difficult as no commas at all.
Personally I think if you made the kids spend 3 hours posting on PH for a month, the Grammar Police would soon sort them out!
In all seriousness, I'm in two minds about the declining state of students' spelling and grammar. One one hand it's quite a sad state of affairs and badly needs rectifying. On the other, I'm going to graduate from a pretty low ranked University in around 15 months time, and if the graduates from better institutions are unable to spell on their applications, I might actually stand a chance of at least making the interview rounds! (For the record, I've always prided myself on my eloquency, I think I may have a touch of OCD(!), got AABB at A level but chose to stay at home as I'm a wimp).
In all seriousness, I'm in two minds about the declining state of students' spelling and grammar. One one hand it's quite a sad state of affairs and badly needs rectifying. On the other, I'm going to graduate from a pretty low ranked University in around 15 months time, and if the graduates from better institutions are unable to spell on their applications, I might actually stand a chance of at least making the interview rounds! (For the record, I've always prided myself on my eloquency, I think I may have a touch of OCD(!), got AABB at A level but chose to stay at home as I'm a wimp).
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