Engaging The Services Of A Builder - dos and don'ts.
Discussion
I am about to have some building work done, but have no experience of hiring builders.
All I know is that in the past, my parents have nightmares with them. A few years back an insurance company appointed a builder to fix the aftermath of a leak in my house and that was a nightmare too.
The guy I have chosen seems OK. Not the cheapest quote, but he's established locally and I think part of the Federation of Master Builders. In the past, my parent's problems with bulders ended in legal action. My view is to get a guy with reputation - something he would be reluctant to lose if it all went wrong.
Basically, I want to have the builder confirm a begining and completion date. I don't want him doing what the insurance builders did which was turn up - rip stuff out then bugger off for a fortnight.
I want to keep it friendly but I would like to have some sort of agreement with him that costs him money if he over runs on the job. The conservatory will be the first job and will need to be finished before another company comes in to fit the kitchen out, so timing is very important.
I assume it's going to be cash up front for materiels etc. What proportion of the cost should this be? I have heard about prices going up during a job - hidden extras. Should I budget in a margin for this, or is it standard paractice to pay an agreed price and no-more.
The job is the construction of a conservatory and the flooring out of a loft with a light and ladder.
As I say, I want to keep it cordial with the builder, but I don't want to get messed around and ripped-off.
Any advice appreciated.
Cheers
All I know is that in the past, my parents have nightmares with them. A few years back an insurance company appointed a builder to fix the aftermath of a leak in my house and that was a nightmare too.
The guy I have chosen seems OK. Not the cheapest quote, but he's established locally and I think part of the Federation of Master Builders. In the past, my parent's problems with bulders ended in legal action. My view is to get a guy with reputation - something he would be reluctant to lose if it all went wrong.
Basically, I want to have the builder confirm a begining and completion date. I don't want him doing what the insurance builders did which was turn up - rip stuff out then bugger off for a fortnight.
I want to keep it friendly but I would like to have some sort of agreement with him that costs him money if he over runs on the job. The conservatory will be the first job and will need to be finished before another company comes in to fit the kitchen out, so timing is very important.
I assume it's going to be cash up front for materiels etc. What proportion of the cost should this be? I have heard about prices going up during a job - hidden extras. Should I budget in a margin for this, or is it standard paractice to pay an agreed price and no-more.
The job is the construction of a conservatory and the flooring out of a loft with a light and ladder.
As I say, I want to keep it cordial with the builder, but I don't want to get messed around and ripped-off.
Any advice appreciated.
Cheers
Use a specialist conservatory company.
One that does the base/dwarf walls itself.
Pm me is you want a good company- a chap I know has a company and that is all he does.
If you use a small company, it's most unlikely they will have a contract with a time related penalty clause written into it
most local builders are not the nightmare that you would think.
How long do you have between fitting a conservatory and fitting the kitchen?
Making the assumption it's a concrete screed base, you will need to allow adequate curing time prior to floor finishes being laid, so allow a ling time between the conservatory and the kitchen!!
Edited for spelling, and to add- agree stage payments- a decent builder won't be asking for too much up front, but splits of 20% are not uncommon, with weekly or monthly payments depending on the duration of the contract
One that does the base/dwarf walls itself.
Pm me is you want a good company- a chap I know has a company and that is all he does.
If you use a small company, it's most unlikely they will have a contract with a time related penalty clause written into it
most local builders are not the nightmare that you would think.
How long do you have between fitting a conservatory and fitting the kitchen?
Making the assumption it's a concrete screed base, you will need to allow adequate curing time prior to floor finishes being laid, so allow a ling time between the conservatory and the kitchen!!
Edited for spelling, and to add- agree stage payments- a decent builder won't be asking for too much up front, but splits of 20% are not uncommon, with weekly or monthly payments depending on the duration of the contract
Edited by Emsman on Tuesday 6th April 09:39
Personally I wouldn't engage any builder without a recommendation from someone. Once you're done that, make sure you have an address & land line number for him.
Next, try to agree phases of the work with a schedule of what will be paid and when.
You should budget for unforeseen complications but try to avoid requesting changes during the project as these will cost you time and money.
Next, try to agree phases of the work with a schedule of what will be paid and when.
You should budget for unforeseen complications but try to avoid requesting changes during the project as these will cost you time and money.
Thanks for the advice. I checked this guy out, I have his home address - I know the road and have seen his vans there, so I guess he's not a fly by night.
Good point about the stages and the conservatory floor curing time. To build it, there is going to be mess, so I want it done before the nice new kitchen floor is laid down.
I suppose my main worry is that he begins work and then goes missing for days on end.
A friend has suggested drawing up my terms and conditions of business. Ie - I will pay you in stages. At each stage this this and this will be finished. The job will be completed no later than 01 02 12 - or whatever. On completion to my satisfaction - the balance will be paid.
I'm not sure a local builder would go for that.
Dan
Good point about the stages and the conservatory floor curing time. To build it, there is going to be mess, so I want it done before the nice new kitchen floor is laid down.
I suppose my main worry is that he begins work and then goes missing for days on end.
A friend has suggested drawing up my terms and conditions of business. Ie - I will pay you in stages. At each stage this this and this will be finished. The job will be completed no later than 01 02 12 - or whatever. On completion to my satisfaction - the balance will be paid.
I'm not sure a local builder would go for that.
Dan
wildcat45 said:
I want to keep it friendly but I would like to have some sort of agreement with him that costs him money if he over runs on the job.
Don't try to be friendly. You are not employing him for his 'friend' services.Be civil, polite, courteous, upfront, honest, but in my experince, keep the friendly side to a minimum.
Although it is a great idea in principle (and from Reading Duncan Bannatynes book, he always does it), penalties for late completion rarely work as
1) Most builders on small domestic projects won't agree to one, and
2) There will be excuses for most 'lateness' on a building job.
If you can get one, great.
If you're really desperate, I believe JCT do a contract for small domestic work. But it's really basic and even then probably overkill for you are taking about.
I would suggest a clearly agreed schedule of payments - an agreed amount to be paid when each "milestone" is achieved. You will be surprised at how much money goes into the ground (of course, the builder could just be "managing" his cashflow...)
If the builder's cashflow is so tight that they need money for materials up front, then I would be concerned.
You could also suggest the notion of a small "retention" - say 3%. Half released when the snags are fixed on completion. And the other half, say, 6 months later to give the contractor an incentive to fix any defects that may emerge as the work dries and settles. This is common practice in larger jobs.
I would suggest a clearly agreed schedule of payments - an agreed amount to be paid when each "milestone" is achieved. You will be surprised at how much money goes into the ground (of course, the builder could just be "managing" his cashflow...)
If the builder's cashflow is so tight that they need money for materials up front, then I would be concerned.
You could also suggest the notion of a small "retention" - say 3%. Half released when the snags are fixed on completion. And the other half, say, 6 months later to give the contractor an incentive to fix any defects that may emerge as the work dries and settles. This is common practice in larger jobs.
Edited by dxg on Tuesday 6th April 14:52
wildcat45 said:
A friend has suggested drawing up my terms and conditions of business. Ie - I will pay you in stages. At each stage this this and this will be finished. The job will be completed no later than 01 02 12 - or whatever. On completion to my satisfaction - the balance will be paid.
Definitely do this. I've had to chase getting this type of document signed by the builder a number of times (culminating in me dropping by the builders house to get him to sign it).
Be flexible with the document, and make sure it is something that both parties are happy with (and benefits both parties). If there's a specific section of the contract that builder is not happy with, get him to explain why he's not happy with it, and if it sounds reasonable (and you're happy with it) take it out. If he is happy with the contents, there should be no reason for him not to sign it.
Don't be afraid to ask questions (and possibly make yourself seem like an idiot in the process). Use the logic that "if you knew the answer to a techincal building question, you probably wouldn't need to employ a builder".
As has been said, NEVER pay more than the amount of work completed. If they do dissapear after a week or so, then your loss will only be in terms of time/hassle, and not financial.
My old man only uses one particular builder (well, him and his chippy mate) based on personal reccomendation.
he works on a carrot and stick method, a % cost agreed for materials up front, a bonus for early completion to a satisfactory standard, and a reduction in price for unreasonable delay.
worked fine both times we have used them (once for a 2 storey extension, once for interiour changes)
where in the UK are you?
he works on a carrot and stick method, a % cost agreed for materials up front, a bonus for early completion to a satisfactory standard, and a reduction in price for unreasonable delay.
worked fine both times we have used them (once for a 2 storey extension, once for interiour changes)
where in the UK are you?
NiceCupOfTea said:
3 things to remember when choosing a builder:
Personal recommendation, personal recommendation, and personal recommendation.
Spot on.Personal recommendation, personal recommendation, and personal recommendation.
My Father in Law is a small one one band type builder, does extentions etc.
He is in his 60's, and has not advertised for work for over 30 years. He gets all his work through personal recommendations.
He does one job at a time, does most of the work himself, and always has work waiting for him.
Bear in mind that when applying your penalty clause for delay- it then rains for 3 weeks solidly, what then?
Does your builder rub his chin, carry on regardless and do an inferior job so he finish on time?
Hardly going to produce your dream creation?
Be realistic, and trust the man? If he can't orovide a portfolio of work- walk away.
There are some utter pillocks in the building trade- there are also a great deal of genuine, hard working experts in their chosen field.
This has to be a balance between what's a fair expectaion, and what's realistic- how many checks do you carry out on a main dealer prior to servicing your car? Oh, none- it's expected that a big flashy showroom produces brilliance.
A JCT contract may be applicable, but most inappropriate, and I wouldn't carry out small works under ones terms.
Ever.
The fact he is a small builder is no measure of him drinking 300 cups of tea every hour, raping your dog, or taking a picture of his mate dressed in your wifes underwear.
Does your builder rub his chin, carry on regardless and do an inferior job so he finish on time?
Hardly going to produce your dream creation?
Be realistic, and trust the man? If he can't orovide a portfolio of work- walk away.
There are some utter pillocks in the building trade- there are also a great deal of genuine, hard working experts in their chosen field.
This has to be a balance between what's a fair expectaion, and what's realistic- how many checks do you carry out on a main dealer prior to servicing your car? Oh, none- it's expected that a big flashy showroom produces brilliance.
A JCT contract may be applicable, but most inappropriate, and I wouldn't carry out small works under ones terms.
Ever.
The fact he is a small builder is no measure of him drinking 300 cups of tea every hour, raping your dog, or taking a picture of his mate dressed in your wifes underwear.
kentmotorcompany said:
NiceCupOfTea said:
3 things to remember when choosing a builder:
Personal recommendation, personal recommendation, and personal recommendation.
Spot on.Personal recommendation, personal recommendation, and personal recommendation.
My Father in Law is a small one one band type builder, does extentions etc.
He is in his 60's, and has not advertised for work for over 30 years. He gets all his work through personal recommendations.
He does one job at a time, does most of the work himself, and always has work waiting for him.
NiceCupOfTea said:
kentmotorcompany said:
NiceCupOfTea said:
3 things to remember when choosing a builder:
Personal recommendation, personal recommendation, and personal recommendation.
Spot on.Personal recommendation, personal recommendation, and personal recommendation.
My Father in Law is a small one one band type builder, does extentions etc.
He is in his 60's, and has not advertised for work for over 30 years. He gets all his work through personal recommendations.
He does one job at a time, does most of the work himself, and always has work waiting for him.
Its just the few horror stories that get the most attention.
Four Cofffee said:
FMB isn't worth much. I have seen and used some right cowboys with the logo on the van and when you look at the qualification it appears to be the ability to sign the membership cheque.
I woukd get a personal recommendation and make sure he is doing just your job, if possible.
I read about a bloke been fined last week as he just had the accreditations put on his van without been registered.I woukd get a personal recommendation and make sure he is doing just your job, if possible.
Choose your builder through recommendations.
Bear in mind that when applying your penalty clause for delay- it then rains for 3 weeks solidly, what then?
Does your builder rub his chin, carry on regardless and do an inferior job so he finish on time?
Hardly going to produce your dream creation?
Be realistic, and trust the man? If he can't orovide a portfolio of work- walk away.
There are some utter pillocks in the building trade- there are also a great deal of genuine, hard working experts in their chosen field.
This has to be a balance between what's a fair expectaion, and what's realistic- how many checks do you carry out on a main dealer prior to servicing your car? Oh, none- it's expected that a big flashy showroom produces brilliance.
A JCT contract may be applicable, but most inappropriate, and I wouldn't carry out small works under ones terms.
Ever.
The fact he is a small builder is no measure of him drinking 300 cups of tea every hour, raping your dog, or taking a picture of his mate dressed in your wifes underwear.
Does your builder rub his chin, carry on regardless and do an inferior job so he finish on time?
Hardly going to produce your dream creation?
Be realistic, and trust the man? If he can't orovide a portfolio of work- walk away.
There are some utter pillocks in the building trade- there are also a great deal of genuine, hard working experts in their chosen field.
This has to be a balance between what's a fair expectaion, and what's realistic- how many checks do you carry out on a main dealer prior to servicing your car? Oh, none- it's expected that a big flashy showroom produces brilliance.
A JCT contract may be applicable, but most inappropriate, and I wouldn't carry out small works under ones terms.
Ever.
The fact he is a small builder is no measure of him drinking 300 cups of tea every hour, raping your dog, or taking a picture of his mate dressed in your wifes underwear.
I'd love to know how one becomes a 'master builder' or whatever, seeing as the biggest eff off cowboy I know is a member.
He isn't even time served, and he has f
ked over more grannies than hypothermia.
He still has that 'guild of master craftsman' logo on his lovely newspaper ads though!
He isn't even time served, and he has f
ked over more grannies than hypothermia.He still has that 'guild of master craftsman' logo on his lovely newspaper ads though!
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