Digital - a step back?

[Jasandjules]

I have three freeview/digital TVs in my house, and one which is too old to have freeview. With the storms running around at the moment I don't get ITV, CH4, CH5 and all the related channels without them breaking up etc..

BUT the crappy little TV in the kitchen which has no digital or freeview is quite happy running with the old signal and all is well.

So, is digital is a step back? IS it the case that in future we will struggle to watch channels when there are atmospheric disturbances!?!?

[Zad]

It sounds like you need a better antenna, old ones are narrowband and not good at receiving the digital multiplexes, which are spread all around the TV band rather than clustered together like the analogue ones. Two other factors come into play too. Firstly, Freeview gets 8 or so digital channels into the space occupied by one analogue channel. Secondly, until all analogue transmitters are turned off, digital transmitters have to run at considerably reduced power to avoid interference.

Having said that, football and other sports look horrible in standard def digital. The ball always seems to move around in individual frames, and if you look closely, the players always have a fuzzy halo around them. Crowd shots are plain mushy (technical expression).

[Jasandjules]

Yes, you could be right on needing an upgraded antenna - I think the one on this old place is a good 10 years old.

[dreamz]

Zad said:

Having said that, football and other sports look horrible in standard def digital. The ball always seems to move around in individual frames, and if you look closely, the players always have a fuzzy halo around them. Crowd shots are plain mushy (technical expression).

strange i think sports looks awesome esp the HD stuff.

[lord summerisle]

the problem we see is the low quality of the picture.
Watching C4 news last night, when there was a story on something in Westminster - think it was one of the milipeeds, when they moved - the picture around the suit would pixilate very badly.
Some times the feed looks like watching a Youtube video, rather than a TV broadcast.

[FasterFreddy]

lord summerisle said:

Watching C4 news last night, when there was a story on something in Westminster - think it was one of the milipeeds, when they moved - the picture around the suit would pixilate very badly.

That's not your reception. They do that in real life. It's their aura of nepotism.

[Dracoro]

Some boxes are better than others.

I have an old sony digibox and it's excellent, goot at getting a picture using internal aerial etc.

However, I've had a couple of cheap ones and, even plugged into the main aerial, they've been crap, pixelating, locking up etc.

You get what you pay for.

The technology IS a step forwards, just sometimes the implementation has been poor because people want £20 boxes from the supermarket.

[Zad]

I think what lordsummerisle is seeing is purely down to video compression. Some channels have a fairly large bit-rate to play with, and thus get a reasonable quality picture, but some only have a tiny amount of bandwidth allocated to them. This lack of data tends to cause a noisy halo around moving objects. Better decoder software can help to an extent, but if the encoded signal doesn't encode the information, the decoder can't invent it. The encoder used on BBC Freeview HD, for example, is supposed to be particularly rubbish. This noisy halo and compression blocking isn't caused by a poor signal or interference. When you get interference it is usually a very obvious square block or chunk of screen that changes colour.

DAB radio gives a similar compression effect, and just cannot compete with good FM for audio quality. They like to tout around that DAB is CD quality, but in reality it is just mp3 quality at best. To achieve CD quality they would have to use a lossless system (around 400kbit/s compared to the 80-192kbit/s currently used)

[Balmoral Green]

Pixelation, blocks and lines, picture freeze, sound dropping out even if the picture is OK. The worst aspect is that the old telly zaps with the doofer instantaneously, but all our Freeview/digital stuff take an age, sometimes you can count almost up to ten before it reacts to a demand to change channel. Also experience request queues when they have been on for a few hours, you push all the buttons on the remote and nowt happens, then all those failed instructions arrive in a rush all at once.

If watching the five main terrestrial channels, I will always watch on the CRT in analogue. Best picture, best all round quality of service, and an immediate response to an instruction.

Digital is crap, and like a windows 'Are you sure' whenever you want it to do anything with the remotes.

[dilbert]

Jasandjules said:

I have three freeview/digital TVs in my house, and one which is too old to have freeview. With the storms running around at the moment I don't get ITV, CH4, CH5 and all the related channels without them breaking up etc..

BUT the crappy little TV in the kitchen which has no digital or freeview is quite happy running with the old signal and all is well.

So, is digital is a step back? IS it the case that in future we will struggle to watch channels when there are atmospheric disturbances!?!?

It will all improve at digital switch over.

The digital channels are at low power because at a higher power they would destroy the old analogue signal. Once analogue is gone, they'll up the power, and the problems will disappear. The digital signal is working way better than the analogue signal would have, had it been broadcast at the same power level.

After switch over the reception should be as good if not better than analogue, and at a lower power consumption.

My transmitter Heathfield, for example, radiates at 100kW for analogue and only 1kW for digital. It's amazing that digital even works, and the analogue signal is often crappy.

Edited by dilbert on Friday 11th June 19:04

[Balmoral Green]

dilbert said:

stuff

That's encouraging, didn't realise it was all a plot.

It does seem very contrary to the best efforts to get people to make the switch.

[dilbert]

Balmoral Green said:

dilbert said:

stuff

That's encouraging, didn't realise it was all a plot.

It does seem very contrary to the best efforts to get people to make the switch.

It's not a plot. Not like the traffic lights - call me a conspiracy theorist if you like .

The digital signal has loads more energy in it, over a wider bandwidth. The old telly pictures weren't compressed, so the colour information was all streaks and fades, which are soft in the spectrum. Many fewer harmonics, which cause co-channel interference.

The digital signal, being compressed, it's much more like noise, hard edged and horrible. If you watch analogue telly sometimes you can see the digital signal bleeding through into the picture.

Modern communications really are rough, like the appearance of a hedgehog or the sound of a barking dog. In the old days it was all soft and rounded, like jelly, or a tweeting bird.

Modern communications suffer the co-channel interference, but the software compensates. It knows when something is wrong, and it can recover. The older analogue systems just let it all through, and you get splurges from the modern system all over the picture.

Edited by dilbert on Friday 11th June 20:18

[Jasandjules]

That is interesting. So if I invest in a new aerial now I might get a short term benefit but it might not actually be needed when they make the full switch......

[Davidos]

Balmoral Green said:

Pixelation, blocks and lines, picture freeze, sound dropping out even if the picture is OK. The worst aspect is that the old telly zaps with the doofer instantaneously, but all our Freeview/digital stuff take an age, sometimes you can count almost up to ten before it reacts to a demand to change channel. Also experience request queues when they have been on for a few hours, you push all the buttons on the remote and nowt happens, then all those failed instructions arrive in a rush all at once.

If watching the five main terrestrial channels, I will always watch on the CRT in analogue. Best picture, best all round quality of service, and an immediate response to an instruction.

Digital is crap, and like a windows 'Are you sure' whenever you want it to do anything with the remotes.

~1

[dilbert]

Jasandjules said:

That is interesting. So if I invest in a new aerial now I might get a short term benefit but it might not actually be needed when they make the full switch......

If you think you need a new aerial just get one. They're about £15 from an electrical shop. Maybe as much as £35 with masthead amplifier, pole, brackets and new cabling.

I used to be paranoid about my old one falling down and clobbering someone.

Also some of the really old antennas have limited bandwidth, a new one will certainly help, just because it has new cables and most importantly connectors.

Overall though, there's a good chance it's just going to go away as a problem.

Another way, is just to go satellite. I've not, but I was looking at a DIY dish and free to air receiver, and I think the whole thing was £50, in Focus DIY.

Edited by dilbert on Friday 11th June 20:24

[headcase]

dilbert said:

The digital signal, being compressed, it's much more like noise, hard edged and horrible. If you watch analogue telly sometimes you can see the digital signal bleeding through into the picture.

Wahh? Can you tune it in with your teeth also?

[dilbert]

headcase said:

dilbert said:

The digital signal, being compressed, it's much more like noise, hard edged and horrible. If you watch analogue telly sometimes you can see the digital signal bleeding through into the picture.

Wahh? Can you tune it in with your teeth also?

Possibly, but I doubt you'd get a very good picture!

[telecat]

OK If you are in an area that still has an analogue signal the Freeview one is at reduced power. This is because The "powers that be" decreed that Freeview should not interfere with the established channels. Once your area has switched over the Power of the Antenna Transmitting Freeview will increase by at least a power of ten. Even a crappy aerial will be able to pick up all the channels once this is done.

To further muddy the waters on this many transmitters in the run up to "switch over" have engineering works making the signal even worse than normal. I'm in the Emley Moor area and until Monday (14/06/10), the signal will be crappy than normal.

Hence no once they turn the Transmitters up to full power all will be well, until then it's a case of some channels will be brilliant and others dire.

[dilbert]

telecat said:

OK If you are in an area that still has an analogue signal the Freeview one is at reduced power. This is because The "powers that be" decreed that Freeview should not interfere with the established channels. Once your area has switched over the Power of the Antenna Transmitting Freeview will increase by at least a power of ten. Even a crappy aerial will be able to pick up all the channels once this is done.

To further muddy the waters on this many transmitters in the run up to "switch over" have engineering works making the signal even worse than normal. I'm in the Emley Moor area and until Monday (14/06/10), the signal will be crappy than normal.

Hence no once they turn the Transmitters up to full power all will be well, until then it's a case of some channels will be brilliant and others dire.

What's that? Speak up man! I've not had my teeth tuned in years...

[telecat]

dilbert said:

telecat said:

OK If you are in an area that still has an analogue signal the Freeview one is at reduced power. This is because The "powers that be" decreed that Freeview should not interfere with the established channels. Once your area has switched over the Power of the Antenna Transmitting Freeview will increase by at least a power of ten. Even a crappy aerial will be able to pick up all the channels once this is done.

To further muddy the waters on this many transmitters in the run up to "switch over" have engineering works making the signal even worse than normal. I'm in the Emley Moor area and until Monday (14/06/10), the signal will be crappy than normal.

Hence no once they turn the Transmitters up to full power all will be well, until then it's a case of some channels will be brilliant and others dire.

What's that? Speak up man! I've not had my teeth tuned in years...

And the other point is that if you have a good aerial, (I had one fitted to my House when we moved to replace what looked like a metal "stick"), Then you may need to get an attenuator to reduce the signal when DSO happens in your area. Most Humax Boxes prefer an 80% to 90% signal strength. That would make your teeth glow!!