Help

[dafydd2008]

Guys, i need some advice.
I have a car which is registered to me however on my company fleet insurance and normally left at the office during weekends due to parking restrictions where i live.
I have recieved a speeding ticket in Somerset and requested photographic evidence which i have now recieved and unable to make out who is driving at the time, the windowscreen is just black.
I am based in London and have no reason to go to Somerset, however no one is holding there hands up in the office to taking the car and now stuck what to do.
any ideas?
On the response back from the police it states "it remains your legal responsibility to supply the drivers details as requested" how can i, if i do not know who was driving?

Thanks in advance!

[Mill Wheel]

Presumably you have checked for window stickers etc. which might confirm it IS your car? Position of the tax disc (mine is always upside down)?

Any of your employees from Somerset, or have family there?

Do you keep mileage records? Where do you keep the keys?

Once you have exhausted all these questions to no avail, it is time to call in the professionals, and have the police investigate - it's what they do.

Inform the SCP of the measures you have taken to establish the drivers identity, and ask them if they can supply any further clues - other frames from a video if it was a van - or other CCTV.

[wessexrfc]

Dafydd, here;s a post from a mate of mine who may have been in the same situation as yourself. Matt is a top bloke and I'm sure if you PM him he will help or point in the right direction

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... plate has been cloned

[peterguk M500]

Where were the keys that weekend?

[Cat]

Did anyone have your permission to be driving the car at that time? If not then the car was taken without your consent and you should report this to the Police. Once you have the incident/crime number pass it on to the camera partnership. Be aware that if you go down this route and and it's subsequently found not to be true you leave yourself open to charges of wasting police time and attempt to pervert etc.

Cat

[streaky]

It will likely be argued that you are obliged to keep records of who uses the vehicle. This is not a requirement in law, but is a prudent measure for (corporate) owners of vehicles that have multiple users,

You must make every reasonable effort to establish who was driving the vehicle (if established as being your vehicle) at the time.

Evidence to demonstrate this should be retained in case you need to defend a subsequent "failure to identify" charge in court.

Streaky

[dafydd2008]

Thanks for the responses guys.

The keys were left in the keystore over the weekend along with a load of the fleet vans etc.
We do keep brief logs incase of stuff like this, however they do not always get filled in and there is nothing for the day or the ticket.
All the guys have permission to drive any car/van we have, so in theory I have given them pernmission.

What else can I do, do I just have to take them even though it wasn't me?

[Ollyc]

No don't say it was you driving if it wasn't as your then lieing to the police and state that to them! As for asking for further pics info etc they will be a bit arsy no doubt but explain the problem and if they don't help I'd contact the station and say that you can't identify the driver due to it being a fleet car, the driver is not visible in the picture, the car is on loan to all staff, there is no record of it on that day for being used, you've questioned all staff to no avail, where do you go from here that way your proactive and not just playing the fool.

But FFS don't take the points thats noble but stupid on your behalf.

As your staff sure as st wouldn't do that for you by the sounds of things.

[Henry-F]

One of those occasions when unfortunately the camera doesn't work quite as well as Norman pulling you over for a quick chat and getting all your details. The camera people will have to let it go and live to fight another day.

Well done for trying to identify the person though. Relax in the knowledge you've done as much as you can.

Keep smiling.

Henry

[M5 Mark]

I believe the fleet manager will be liable for the penalty if he/she cannot identify the driver?

If he/she names you then you will have a hell of a job saying it wasn't you regardless.

I got 3 points after someone who test drive a previous car of mine for sale drove though a camera 200 yards from my house! I provided bill of sale dated and signed etc, but the new owner stated it wasn;t them and I was awarded points for not identifying name of driver as 3 people test drove the car that day and the photo clearly showed it wasn't me! No easy way out of this I'm afraid other than assistance from your fleet manager

[peterguk M500]

dafydd2008 said:

Thanks for the responses guys.

The keys were left in the keystore over the weekend along with a load of the fleet vans etc.
We do keep brief logs incase of stuff like this, however they do not always get filled in and there is nothing for the day or the ticket.
All the guys have permission to drive any car/van we have, so in theory I have given them pernmission.

What else can I do, do I just have to take them even though it wasn't me?

Then it is questionable whether you were the keeper that weekend. Could be very good for you.

Google Mohindra

Start here:

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2004/490...

PM me if you need any further help.

Edited by peterguk M500 on Friday 2nd July 01:01

[streaky]

M5 Mark said:

I believe the fleet manager will be liable for the penalty if he/she cannot identify the driver?

It's the Company Secretary who will attract any penalty.

According to PNLD: "If it is a company vehicle and no driver can be identified then it may be the company secretary/director who is prosecuted for failure to furnish driver details. If every effort was made to identify the driver it is possible that the company will receive a warning letter and requesting that they implement a logging out system for vehicles."

Streaky

[berg1]

streaky said:

M5 Mark said:

I believe the fleet manager will be liable for the penalty if he/she cannot identify the driver?

It's the Company Secretary who will attract any penalty.

According to PNLD: "If it is a company vehicle and no driver can be identified then it may be the company secretary/director who is prosecuted for failure to furnish driver details. If every effort was made to identify the driver it is possible that the company will receive a warning letter and requesting that they implement a logging out system for vehicles."

Streaky

In my case as company secretary I just got a fine and no points, resault as it may or may not have been me driving.

[Corpulent Tosser]

I worked with a guy who got off two speeding charges by saying he didn't know who the driver was.

In one case he was driving, in the other he was out of the country but he knew it was his girlfriend who was driving, I saw the photograph and could recognise her.

His car was insured for and accessible to a number of people and he claimed it could have been any one of several.

He just kept sending letters saying he didn't know and eventually both were dropped.

BTW he was a tt and IMO should have put his hands up and admitted it, but he took pleasure in bucking the system, he also told a number of people about it, idiot.

[SS2.]

streaky said:

M5 Mark said:

I believe the fleet manager will be liable for the penalty if he/she cannot identify the driver?

It's the Company Secretary who will attract any penalty.

I suspect that would depend upon the addressee of the s.172 request and also the type of company involved (ie different outcomes PLC, Ltd, Sole Trader, etc).

streaky said:

According to PNLD: "If it is a company vehicle and no driver can be identified then it may be the company secretary/director who is prosecuted for failure to furnish driver details. If every effort was made to identify the driver it is possible that the company will receive a warning letter and requesting that they implement a logging out system for vehicles."

Whilst that may be the author's personal opinion, it's not entirely in line with legislation.

For instance, if a corporate fails to keep a log of who was driving its vehicles, and was unable to demonstrate that such a failure was a reasonable one, then it could not rely upon 'reasonable diligence' (ie 'making every effort') to defend an allegation of failing to furnish.

berg1 said:

In my case as company secretary I just got a fine and no points, resault as it may or may not have been me driving.

That's because corporate s.172 offences are not endorsable.

[dafydd2008]

Thanks for all the responses guys, it has been really helpful!
I have spoken to Somerset camera unit today and explained the situation and they say they need me to write
In with a accompanying letter to explain the situation.

Any thoughts on the below letter?


Vehicle Registration: XXXXXXXX
Offence Date: 29th May 2010

Dear Sir’s,

I write with regards to the above speeding offence which was received on the 10th June 2010.
I am the registered owner of the vehicle however this is insured on my company fleet insurance
Due to this being used, by myself and all staff operatives and most weekends this being left at my office premises.

At the time of the offence, the vehicle was left at my office premises with the key in a key safe along with the company fleet keys for other vehicles.
I have been unable to provide the drivers details, since I received the letter so I have requested further photographic evidence to indentify which staff member was responsible, however the images which you have returned only show's the vehicle with the windscreen being very dark and I am unable to see who was driving.
I have quizzed all of my staff however no one has come forward to the offence and now stuck on what to do.
I have called your helpline for further advice and they advised me to write a accompanying letter explaining the situation.



Kind Regards

Edited by dafydd2008 on Friday 2nd July 21:33

[SS2.]

If the names and addresses of all possible drivers is information which is in your power to give, then you should include their details within your letter.

[dafydd2008]

Thanks SS2, any more?