Real world performance
Discussion
"Real world performance", a term exhausted by diesel car owners to justify running a tractor 
But, toque can be useful (bear with me.). I have ridden only a handful of bikes over the short time that I have had my bike licence, but I have been most surprised by my single cylinder experience yesterday [ http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f... ]. It has loads of instant go make overtakes swift and safe!!
Although this is more a tongue and cheek friday fun topic rather than serious debate [troll] time, can a featherweight KTM 690 Duke R out perform the averages litre bike in 'real world' terms.
In brief the official stats for the 70hp KTM are 147kg kerb weight with 52lb/ft @ 5500rpm
Random net searches came up with the following.
'06 Kawasaki ZX10R
Wet weight 204kg
164.9 bhp and 79.4 lb.ft 8500rpm
'06 Suzuki GSX-R1000
Wet weight 199kg
156.6 bhp and 78.9 lb.ft
'06 Honda Fireblade
Wet weight 205kg
152.2 and 77.3 lb.ft
'06 Yamaha YZF-R1
Wet weight 204kg
152.6 and 77.3 lb.ft @ 9500rpm
Thoughts?!?!?!
But, toque can be useful (bear with me.). I have ridden only a handful of bikes over the short time that I have had my bike licence, but I have been most surprised by my single cylinder experience yesterday [ http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f... ]. It has loads of instant go make overtakes swift and safe!!
Although this is more a tongue and cheek friday fun topic rather than serious debate [troll] time, can a featherweight KTM 690 Duke R out perform the averages litre bike in 'real world' terms.
In brief the official stats for the 70hp KTM are 147kg kerb weight with 52lb/ft @ 5500rpm
Random net searches came up with the following.
'06 Kawasaki ZX10R
Wet weight 204kg
164.9 bhp and 79.4 lb.ft 8500rpm
'06 Suzuki GSX-R1000
Wet weight 199kg
156.6 bhp and 78.9 lb.ft
'06 Honda Fireblade
Wet weight 205kg
152.2 and 77.3 lb.ft
'06 Yamaha YZF-R1
Wet weight 204kg
152.6 and 77.3 lb.ft @ 9500rpm
Thoughts?!?!?!
Edited by Andrew_M on Friday 15th October 11:50
Bike had a test where they lined up a Versys next to a blade and did a roll-on from very low revs, the Versys pulled away quicker. Much like the Top Gear episode where a Ford Focus out accelerated a Mitsubishi Evo as it wasn't in the powerband.
That said, if the litre bike was anywhere near the mid-range of the revs then the Duke wouldn't see which way it went.
That said, if the litre bike was anywhere near the mid-range of the revs then the Duke wouldn't see which way it went.
Just to reiterate, real world is roundabouts, rolling traffic, traffic lights, short dual carriageways, and I suppose all weather A road twists and turns. Interesting that a few tests have been carried out. 
The Versys is a twin though with less torque higher up the rev range than the duke and weighs more than all of the above litre sport bikes.
The Versys is a twin though with less torque higher up the rev range than the duke and weighs more than all of the above litre sport bikes.
Edited by Andrew_M on Friday 15th October 12:20
Rawwr said:
My bike has the optional gearbox.
As an owner of a singles and IL4's, with a single it's great blatting around on the torque on road and lugging about off road spinning the rear. I love the sound of my single on an Arrow race pipe...
but - they are breathless and run out of revs on the road if you want to crack on. Great for popping wheelies, but crap for carrying them unless you are a 'through the box'legend. Short gearing also flatters their power and torque outputs.
Real world performance better than an IL4? Maybe on country lanes, but nowhere else.
It's pretty much the same debate I'm having with myself ... looking to upgrade the CAT to something quicker but pretty much all newer inline 1000cc fours dont get near good torque figures until 6-8k rpm... which means in any gear other than 1st / 2nd (ish) your going to be breaking the speed limit rather easily... so I dont think they make good road bikes realistically...
On the road I reckon a lower powered v-twin would be quicker from point to point ...
This comes from a guy who loves his inline four ... lol
On the road I reckon a lower powered v-twin would be quicker from point to point ...
This comes from a guy who loves his inline four ... lol
Mr OCD said:
It's pretty much the same debate I'm having with myself ... looking to upgrade the CAT to something quicker but pretty much all newer inline 1000cc fours dont get near good torque figures until 6-8k rpm... which means in any gear other than 1st / 2nd (ish) your going to be breaking the speed limit rather easily... so I dont think they make good road bikes realistically...
On the road I reckon a lower powered v-twin would be quicker from point to point ...
This comes from a guy who loves his inline four ... lol
I enjoy a screaming 600 my self.On the road I reckon a lower powered v-twin would be quicker from point to point ...
This comes from a guy who loves his inline four ... lol
Mr OCD said:
It's pretty much the same debate I'm having with myself ... looking to upgrade the CAT to something quicker but pretty much all newer inline 1000cc fours dont get near good torque figures until 6-8k rpm... which means in any gear other than 1st / 2nd (ish) your going to be breaking the speed limit rather easily... so I dont think they make good road bikes realistically...
On the road I reckon a lower powered v-twin would be quicker from point to point ...
This comes from a guy who loves his inline four ... lol
I love my IL4 's too..When I swopped from my Busa to a GSXR1000, I thought something was wrong with the GSXR initially, it felt gutless ,reason being the Busa made more torque at 3,700RPM than the GSXR did at 10,200RPM. Both bikes peaked at around 100ft lb of torque at 7,200RPM for the Busa and 82ft lb at over 10,000RPM for the GSXR, a lower RPM the difference is even more vast..On the road I reckon a lower powered v-twin would be quicker from point to point ...
This comes from a guy who loves his inline four ... lol
Both bikes made around 160RWHP but chassis aside the Busa engine was far,far nicer to get from A to B on give you that "real world" performance
The new S1000R has moved the game on power wise but as ive often said and people are starting to comment on, at the expense of that lovely mid range torque.
I took an test ride on an 1198 earlier this year and totally loved it..reason being they punt out so much more torque than any of the litre bikes,similar to the Busa in fact, that gap will only widen as the japs now all hunt for 200BHP IL4's+.
Torque is far more useful and exciting to use on the road, for that reason, if I was in the market for new sportsbike, id ditch the more of the same format and get the Duke..
A certain sportsbike magazine did a test with two R6's a few years back.
One was standard and the other tuned for more low down torque at the expence of top end power.
Nearly everyone who rode them thought the second bike was faster.
In the real world we're not all pinging our bikes off the rev limiter are we......?
One was standard and the other tuned for more low down torque at the expence of top end power.
Nearly everyone who rode them thought the second bike was faster.
In the real world we're not all pinging our bikes off the rev limiter are we......?
A more 'old-tech' comparison is that I ran a Kawasaki KR1s (250 2-stroke to those not into 'em) and just after, a GSXR1100.
The KR1 was ace when you were in the mood to rev the proverbials out of it but if you just wanted to make your way through town, it was hard work dancing up and down the gearbox.
The GSXR by comparison had power at all revs in all gears so was easy to ride in variable speed areas.
OK they are rather extremes but I certainly agree that a great road bike and a great track bike are rarely the same bike.
These days, the likes of the Speed Triples and Aprilia Tuonos etc are great road bikes in our speed-conscious times.
The KR1 was ace when you were in the mood to rev the proverbials out of it but if you just wanted to make your way through town, it was hard work dancing up and down the gearbox.
The GSXR by comparison had power at all revs in all gears so was easy to ride in variable speed areas.
OK they are rather extremes but I certainly agree that a great road bike and a great track bike are rarely the same bike.
These days, the likes of the Speed Triples and Aprilia Tuonos etc are great road bikes in our speed-conscious times.
i rode my 2001 husky 610 - which i guess is probably a lot less grunty than the modern ktm 690 to the bike shop last week - i had not ridden it for over 12 months - needed some work which i have no enthusiasm to undertake - and had the stock pipes/airbox fitted which strangles it somewhat.
whilst great fun - and yes does have some torque and bars out stance encourages a spirited riding style - compared to my old dinosaur softish set up carb fed blade - even on rubbish bumpy b roads - it is slow - end of - but great fun at legalish speeds- which is probably a good thing. parallel is like comparing to old cars i use - an m3 evo saloon and auto 330d estate - a lot of the time at legal speeds the 330d is easier uber torquey - not quicker to drive - but easy to keep up a good pace - and as such an easy choice. however if i am in the mood the m3 is much quicker - and enables safe overtakes when in the 5k-7.5k powerband - that the oil burner is not close to being capable of.
in fact to me the single is much like a diesel turbo - really torquey and just when you think you are going to get the money shot - breathless - i am sure a highy tuned squillion quid husaberg would be an eye opener - but only be quicker due to rider input unless it was a particularly nadgery road - and still would not enable those easily accessible 1.something lepton moments none of us on here ever thoroughly enjoy when the mood takes us on multicylinder machines
whilst great fun - and yes does have some torque and bars out stance encourages a spirited riding style - compared to my old dinosaur softish set up carb fed blade - even on rubbish bumpy b roads - it is slow - end of - but great fun at legalish speeds- which is probably a good thing. parallel is like comparing to old cars i use - an m3 evo saloon and auto 330d estate - a lot of the time at legal speeds the 330d is easier uber torquey - not quicker to drive - but easy to keep up a good pace - and as such an easy choice. however if i am in the mood the m3 is much quicker - and enables safe overtakes when in the 5k-7.5k powerband - that the oil burner is not close to being capable of.
in fact to me the single is much like a diesel turbo - really torquey and just when you think you are going to get the money shot - breathless - i am sure a highy tuned squillion quid husaberg would be an eye opener - but only be quicker due to rider input unless it was a particularly nadgery road - and still would not enable those easily accessible 1.something lepton moments none of us on here ever thoroughly enjoy when the mood takes us on multicylinder machines
Fire99 said:
These days, the likes of the Speed Triples and Aprilia Tuonos etc are great road bikes in our speed-conscious times.
just borrowed a mates factory tuono racing on a back to back against my old honda - it had sooo much torque that i realised why on a ride out he fooks off whilst i am tap dancing to go down the box to stay in range - after my very brief experience - tuonos do indeed make terrific real world road bikesStevie_P said:
In the real world we're not all pinging our bikes off the rev limiter are we......?
I think that is the point, if you are doing 40 mph in 4th on a 600 you've got little throttle response. The single day to day gives you the option to do 40 in 4th but a quick blip changes everything, no drama, no fuss.Interesting opinions though, keep them coming.
Edited by Andrew_M on Friday 15th October 16:34
rossb said:
just borrowed a mates factory tuono racing on a back to back against my old honda - it had sooo much torque that i realised why on a ride out he fooks off whilst i am tap dancing to go down the box to stay in range - after my very brief experience - tuonos do indeed make terrific real world road bikes
Pretty quick aren't they? No doubt on somewhere like Snetterton a current R1 etc will make good ground on the back straight but on the road they are very quick. A mate has a 2007 Factory and it can be a bit snatchy at times at very low revs and the pillion seat is in superbike league of s
te but I could really get on with one as my daily town/A-road machine. (Though I think a good lock would be in order)There's other factors to consider too as to what makes better progress such as weight, postion etc not to mention tyres/handling.
I own a KTM 990 Superduke and a Suzuki Hayabusa. Both are totally different to ride.
The Hayabusa can seem flat against the KTM's manouverability and general low down punch - not to mention the general riding position which makes it so much fun on local Cornish roads.
The Suzuki, is a totally different animal once the revs get up and you're tucked in on a flowing A-road, plus it's less affected by taking the girlfriend on the back.
In the wet, the KTM is an animal compared to the softer lower down power of the Haybusa but the upright riding postion and 'hooning' factor makes the KTM more fun regardless of weather (plus the Suzuki is on Avons which are hopeless when pushing on in the wet).
Of the two I try to choose the KTM if I want balls out fun or the Hayabusa for trying to be sensible but they can still turn their hands at each others' roles/strengths.
I don't know how the torque of each bike compares but in day to day riding any rider would choose revs/gear to suit how they want the power delivered.
re OP, the 690 Duke is a right holigan tool compared to a Versys/ER-6 - probably more due to the way the power is delivered & the riding position/slimness of bike than any power or torque curve.
I own a KTM 990 Superduke and a Suzuki Hayabusa. Both are totally different to ride.
The Hayabusa can seem flat against the KTM's manouverability and general low down punch - not to mention the general riding position which makes it so much fun on local Cornish roads.
The Suzuki, is a totally different animal once the revs get up and you're tucked in on a flowing A-road, plus it's less affected by taking the girlfriend on the back.
In the wet, the KTM is an animal compared to the softer lower down power of the Haybusa but the upright riding postion and 'hooning' factor makes the KTM more fun regardless of weather (plus the Suzuki is on Avons which are hopeless when pushing on in the wet).
Of the two I try to choose the KTM if I want balls out fun or the Hayabusa for trying to be sensible but they can still turn their hands at each others' roles/strengths.
I don't know how the torque of each bike compares but in day to day riding any rider would choose revs/gear to suit how they want the power delivered.
re OP, the 690 Duke is a right holigan tool compared to a Versys/ER-6 - probably more due to the way the power is delivered & the riding position/slimness of bike than any power or torque curve.
Andrew_M said:
Random net searches came up with the following.
'06 Kawasaki ZX10R
Wet weight 204kg
164.9 bhp and 79.4 lb.ft 8500rpm
'06 Suzuki GSX-R1000
Wet weight 199kg
156.6 bhp and 78.9 lb.ft
'06 Honda Fireblade
Wet weight 205kg
152.2 and 77.3 lb.ft
'06 Yamaha YZF-R1
Wet weight 204kg
152.6 and 77.3 lb.ft @ 9500rpm
Thoughts?!?!?!
Try an MT01. only 90bhp but 150Nm (110lb.ft I think) at 3750rpm. Absolutely hilarious to ride in straight line. Does weigh 260kg though.'06 Kawasaki ZX10R
Wet weight 204kg
164.9 bhp and 79.4 lb.ft 8500rpm
'06 Suzuki GSX-R1000
Wet weight 199kg
156.6 bhp and 78.9 lb.ft
'06 Honda Fireblade
Wet weight 205kg
152.2 and 77.3 lb.ft
'06 Yamaha YZF-R1
Wet weight 204kg
152.6 and 77.3 lb.ft @ 9500rpm
Thoughts?!?!?!
Personally I prefer torque to power
"Real world performance"
With cars, excluding exotica and lightweight specials, the performance/handling is fairly accessible and usable even to a fairly average (but mechanically sympathetic)driver. It takes much more skill to ride a motorbike fast than to drive a car at the same speed.
Most motorbikes are, by most people's definition "fast". Ok, so some bikes run out of puff at 100mph, but very few people can ride to their machine's limits (watch the top TT riders for how they can be ridden).
Yes, some people ride balls-out on the roads, but they are taking a huge risk.
Peak power is good for bragging, but "power is nothing without control".
A bike that has instant urge at legal speeds and chuckable handling is far more use than a bike that only gets going at 90mph.
With cars, excluding exotica and lightweight specials, the performance/handling is fairly accessible and usable even to a fairly average (but mechanically sympathetic)driver. It takes much more skill to ride a motorbike fast than to drive a car at the same speed.
Most motorbikes are, by most people's definition "fast". Ok, so some bikes run out of puff at 100mph, but very few people can ride to their machine's limits (watch the top TT riders for how they can be ridden).
Yes, some people ride balls-out on the roads, but they are taking a huge risk.
Peak power is good for bragging, but "power is nothing without control".
A bike that has instant urge at legal speeds and chuckable handling is far more use than a bike that only gets going at 90mph.
My GSX-R is lovely to ride on fast A roads, but is only in the sweet spot when it's way too fast for legal road conditions. Perfect on track though.
My TMax autoscoot however, is quicker through traffic and between the lights, more comfortable, and you can ride longer and in more comfort.
For the real world, that's why the TMax wins Monday-Friday, and the GSX-R for weekends only. I do chuckle at sportsbike riders who commute in town all leathered up and you can see them physically in discomfort crouched over at 15mph... especially when I'm passing them by.
My TMax autoscoot however, is quicker through traffic and between the lights, more comfortable, and you can ride longer and in more comfort.
For the real world, that's why the TMax wins Monday-Friday, and the GSX-R for weekends only. I do chuckle at sportsbike riders who commute in town all leathered up and you can see them physically in discomfort crouched over at 15mph... especially when I'm passing them by.
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