Aerospace Engineer to Commercial Pilot
Discussion
Hi, I was wondering if there are any commercial pilots on here that would be able to give me some advice regarding making the jump from engineering to a commercial pilot.
I am 28 and work freelance as a aerospace engineer currently hold a lead engineer role on the wing design of the Airbus A350XWB, in which financially I do pretty well.
I have a degree in aeronautical engineering and in conjunction with the above job I think I would be a competitive candidate upon application to an airline.
I have always wanted to fly for a living and am considering making the leap in the next year or so. I am going to a commercial pilot seminar at Heathrow next month to meet some of the flying schools and get an understanding on what each of them offer. It seems as though there is little option now other than financing the training personally as scholarships seems few and far between.
Any thoughts would be appreciated
I am 28 and work freelance as a aerospace engineer currently hold a lead engineer role on the wing design of the Airbus A350XWB, in which financially I do pretty well.
I have a degree in aeronautical engineering and in conjunction with the above job I think I would be a competitive candidate upon application to an airline.
I have always wanted to fly for a living and am considering making the leap in the next year or so. I am going to a commercial pilot seminar at Heathrow next month to meet some of the flying schools and get an understanding on what each of them offer. It seems as though there is little option now other than financing the training personally as scholarships seems few and far between.
Any thoughts would be appreciated
Hi,
I'm also looking to train as a Commercial Pilot starting in November, I have spoken and been to some of the flight schools and have found for me the best way is to go a modular route due to family commitments. When i went to a couple of the schools i found that they are geared towards the younger student and as I'm 31 they looked a little down on me and it made me think hard and long about why i would want to spend £90k+ with them!
After alot of resurch the modular route made sence but i will be using different flight schools around the UK/USA to get my licence and also saving me £30k. I know some people would advise against the way i'm planning but i have spoken to lot's of "Mature" pilots who have taken the same path.
I know going with one of the big schools you have some kind of security, and they will eventually get you in to an airline, but i have also found it's a lot of who you know and one reason why I'm currently working at Bristol Airport as a flight dispatcher building all the contacts i can with various senior captains.
HTH.
I'm also looking to train as a Commercial Pilot starting in November, I have spoken and been to some of the flight schools and have found for me the best way is to go a modular route due to family commitments. When i went to a couple of the schools i found that they are geared towards the younger student and as I'm 31 they looked a little down on me and it made me think hard and long about why i would want to spend £90k+ with them!
After alot of resurch the modular route made sence but i will be using different flight schools around the UK/USA to get my licence and also saving me £30k. I know some people would advise against the way i'm planning but i have spoken to lot's of "Mature" pilots who have taken the same path.
I know going with one of the big schools you have some kind of security, and they will eventually get you in to an airline, but i have also found it's a lot of who you know and one reason why I'm currently working at Bristol Airport as a flight dispatcher building all the contacts i can with various senior captains.
HTH.
Hi,
Think long and hard.
The debts are huge and the pay offs are quite often not. You may find yourself having to pay for a type-rating just to make yourself attractive in the market place. That could be up to another £30k on top of your training.
Unfortunately, it is not a case of who you know. Contacts will probably get you somewhere in corporate aviation, but they won't get you in the backdoor at any of the major players in UK airlines. Recruitment processes and mostly very rigid and stringent with few exceptions. The domestic market is fairly saturated and there many experienced unemployed pilots on the market. If you are one of the lucky few that makes it to the RHS of a UK jet operator, the time to command is currently sitting at 12-15 years in some companies. There are FOs in their 40's who are potentially facing an entire career in the RHS through no fault of their own. You may say that I would be happy being a co-pilot for my career, but trust me after a handful of years you won't.
For the near future most of the airline work will involve heading East and even they are able to ask for 1000hrs+ (Increasing to 2500+ for Emirates) heavy jet experience due to the number of applicants. For every person candidate that eventually joins an airline there are many who never make it. If you do have to move abroad to secure your first job it can be very tough to come home again and join a (decent) UK airline.
It's not all negative, I'm just trying to offer perspective. If you are thinking about joining the industry in your 30's these are some of the issues you will face.
Think long and hard.
The debts are huge and the pay offs are quite often not. You may find yourself having to pay for a type-rating just to make yourself attractive in the market place. That could be up to another £30k on top of your training.
Unfortunately, it is not a case of who you know. Contacts will probably get you somewhere in corporate aviation, but they won't get you in the backdoor at any of the major players in UK airlines. Recruitment processes and mostly very rigid and stringent with few exceptions. The domestic market is fairly saturated and there many experienced unemployed pilots on the market. If you are one of the lucky few that makes it to the RHS of a UK jet operator, the time to command is currently sitting at 12-15 years in some companies. There are FOs in their 40's who are potentially facing an entire career in the RHS through no fault of their own. You may say that I would be happy being a co-pilot for my career, but trust me after a handful of years you won't.
For the near future most of the airline work will involve heading East and even they are able to ask for 1000hrs+ (Increasing to 2500+ for Emirates) heavy jet experience due to the number of applicants. For every person candidate that eventually joins an airline there are many who never make it. If you do have to move abroad to secure your first job it can be very tough to come home again and join a (decent) UK airline.
It's not all negative, I'm just trying to offer perspective. If you are thinking about joining the industry in your 30's these are some of the issues you will face.
Just out of interest are you in the Industry?
The contacts I have are Training Capt's for various Airlines, and a few have a lot of influence within their Airlines and have secured friends jobs in the RHS on A320/B738 with in the last 6 months.
With regards to the eastern carriers requiring 2000+ hrs, Air Asia X are accepting direct entry A330 cadets from Oxford, yes this is a one off but is possible to get in to WB AC if your good enough. Also i know plenty of guys on command courses and will be in the LHS after just 6 years service, OK there not with Legacy carriers and that can take you 10-15 to get command but on the flip side another friend step'd up to command on a BA 744 with in 7 years.
I know I have a challenge ahead being in my 30's, and one reason why i have taken a few years to learn more about the industry and watch the recruitment/airline trends, if there is one thing I know is I'm not going in blind!
The contacts I have are Training Capt's for various Airlines, and a few have a lot of influence within their Airlines and have secured friends jobs in the RHS on A320/B738 with in the last 6 months.
With regards to the eastern carriers requiring 2000+ hrs, Air Asia X are accepting direct entry A330 cadets from Oxford, yes this is a one off but is possible to get in to WB AC if your good enough. Also i know plenty of guys on command courses and will be in the LHS after just 6 years service, OK there not with Legacy carriers and that can take you 10-15 to get command but on the flip side another friend step'd up to command on a BA 744 with in 7 years.
I know I have a challenge ahead being in my 30's, and one reason why i have taken a few years to learn more about the industry and watch the recruitment/airline trends, if there is one thing I know is I'm not going in blind!
IM NUTS2 said:
Just out of interest are you in the Industry?
The contacts I have are Training Capt's for various Airlines, and a few have a lot of influence within their Airlines and have secured friends jobs in the RHS on A320/B738 with in the last 6 months.
With regards to the eastern carriers requiring 2000+ hrs, Air Asia X are accepting direct entry A330 cadets from Oxford, yes this is a one off but is possible to get in to WB AC if your good enough. Also i know plenty of guys on command courses and will be in the LHS after just 6 years service, OK there not with Legacy carriers and that can take you 10-15 to get command but on the flip side another friend step'd up to command on a BA 744 with in 7 years.
I know I have a challenge ahead being in my 30's, and one reason why i have taken a few years to learn more about the industry and watch the recruitment/airline trends, if there is one thing I know is I'm not going in blind!
Hi again,The contacts I have are Training Capt's for various Airlines, and a few have a lot of influence within their Airlines and have secured friends jobs in the RHS on A320/B738 with in the last 6 months.
With regards to the eastern carriers requiring 2000+ hrs, Air Asia X are accepting direct entry A330 cadets from Oxford, yes this is a one off but is possible to get in to WB AC if your good enough. Also i know plenty of guys on command courses and will be in the LHS after just 6 years service, OK there not with Legacy carriers and that can take you 10-15 to get command but on the flip side another friend step'd up to command on a BA 744 with in 7 years.
I know I have a challenge ahead being in my 30's, and one reason why i have taken a few years to learn more about the industry and watch the recruitment/airline trends, if there is one thing I know is I'm not going in blind!
Yes I am. I work for one of the larger ones and have done for my whole career. I have friends who I have trained with who have been unemployed since 2000. I have a few friends who have been fortunate enough to get into the major airlines and many who are still struggling to make ends meet.
It's very difficult to express tone in my posts. I am not trying to put you off, but I am trying to give you perspective from other people's struggles. I know some excellent operators who are unable to get a job and I know some mediocre operators who have walked directly into RHS A320/737. I would hazard a guess that your friend on the 744 joined BA over 10 years ago because most guys who joined at the turn of the century are starting to get SH commands. Am I allowed to ask which airlines your friends have got jobs with on the 320/737? Are they Summer only contracts? If they are, these contracts may seem great, but they are slowly but surely reducing the pay and conditions in the industry to the lowest common denominator.
With regard to Air Asia, who would realistically take 250 hr cadets onto an A330? Longhaul flying can sometimes average out at 1.5 landings per month. You have to rely on experience because you do not have many opportunities to learn on the job. It's a totally different approach to flying; one that's reliant on experience and bookwork and provides little or no opportunity for hands-on learning. I haven't looked at the contract, but I would imagine that it's a form of pay to fly contract? The A330 is definitely a good rating to have, but you will still struggle to get back to the UK if/when you decide that you've had enough over there. That's all fine as long as the risks are understood.
The only two (major!?) airlines I know who have a more relaxed approach to recruitment are Virgin and Monarch. Virgin obviously require 3000+ hours and I believe Monarch are starting to offer Summer-only contracts. In the major UK players TC's can do little more than get your CV on the correct desk.
I'm starting to sound bitter now and I really don't want to. Being a Pilot is one of a handful of jobs that people really would pay to do. Unfortunately, management types have not only realised this, but are milking it for all it's worth. It really isn't an easy job and the combination of early/late starts, crossing timezones and anti-social work patterns can have a large affect on your social life. The work is getting harder and the rewards are getting less. It will be a constant battle throughout our careers to maintain the Ts&Cs that our predecessors have enjoyed.
After all of that waffling, what I'm trying to say is don't do it for money. Have a few plans up your sleeve for after you finish your training. I would even look at a back up career to run alongside. For a little bit of perspective, I am motivated by money and I most certainly wouldn't do the job for free. In the past people have taken low paid posts and cadetships on the promise of a golden ticket a year or two down the line. The reality now is that the golden tickets are disappearing and at the end of the cadetship there are more cadets willing to fill your post on a 6-month contract. Some airlines know this and most definitely exploit it.
I wouldn't want to change jobs now, but at the same time I can say fairly confidently that I wouldn't join the industry if I was graduating now.
Edited by pushthebutton on Wednesday 16th March 11:23
I fly professionally. Everybody assumes that you have to be an airline pilot to be paid to fly. Not so.. there are many areas you can go into if you have a CPL. THe airline wolrd is one such area and others can fill you in on the possibilitys there.
I basically started 15 years ago as a young flight student doing my PPL all the way thru, the IMC rating, Multiengine ratings and finally a single engine CPL and a Multiengine CPL(both with IMC rights). Now the fun starts.. you are basically worthless to anybody without experience (no experience=no job...no job without experience ,repeat ad naseum) so you have to spend alot of time throwing CVs out, knocking on doors and networking.
The usual step is to study for your flight instructor certificate, take that and hopefully get hired by your flightschool and start building hours (thats what its about..HOURS logged equals experience) so you spend alot of days with next to no pay as you grind out hours, all the whilst you sit and watch your bank loans getting whacked with interest...£55k is the going price today by the time you add the MCC course to it. Then if you are lucky you meet somebody who is flying a small twin (baron, C421, 414etc..) and you can mooch some hours out of them or even get hired as a freelance pilot to drive that one around(for free, for the hours, because if you dont, the next guy will). All the while again you wait for the airlines to start hiring again.
Oh yea..dont let you IMC rating expire either you need that and will have to keep it current at your own expense.
Over time you crank out the hours if lucky, then you might strike a deal with a company who will train you as an FO on a turbine powered KingAir, in return you will fly for peanuts(or nothing as you have become desperate...keep an eye on the interest payments again..) and slowly you will get more interesting for a potential small charter operator (hours, the more the better..except turbine hours are best)
Waheey...next thing you know, you are checked out as Captain on the kingair200 and are now on 24hr standby, 7 days a week all year (yes illegal per CAA..but you are listed as "contactable with 2 hours notice" and not "Standy" so the company is in the clearm but you are screwed by having your mobile switched on all the time, have no life, most likely never see the kids/wifes/pets birthdays/holidays as you will be stuck in some s
tty airport during these times)
Now you can start looking around..Corporate jobs (Like me, I am now a Challenger 605 captain, charter outfits who fly bizjets )remember, the bigger the jet, the bigger the suitcase as you will be gone for 2-4 weeks at a time on the Global Expresses, BBJs etc.. Trust me, being stuck in a hotel for 3 weeks at a time by yourself aint fun. Hopefully you actually get along with the other pilot)
Time goes on and you build hours, do more networking and hopefully find a job that satisfies all your requirements for a balanced lifestyle(quality)...this is what makes airline soooo appealing...you get a schedule and roster.
Flying Cargo is another option, but the smaller operators are all night flying, crappy old equipment (if the button,knob,dial is dusty..dont touch it) been there done that.. Air Ambulance.. done that..hard but very satisfiing saving lives (stupid tourists almost killing themselves on jetskis)... bank repo jobs..done that as a freelancer.. ferried arplanes all over the place for workshops/paintshops..again decrepid aircraft with which the FAA gave a singlepilot permission so they knew how many bodies to look for if I stacked it.
Basically this business aint rosey like the flightschools want you to beleive, they will blow sunshine up your ass to entice you to spend ALOT of dosh with them. It is a Gamble, and you have to make it clear with yourself and your dependants of the time, money, blood and sweat you have to invest. As a matter of fact, it could all fail and you might just simply not get any further after your CPL... I know many of my friends from Flightschool who just did not get the breaks to move on.
The flying publc just never know any of this, they see the ubiquitous airline captain and think that all pilots are over paid and work 4 days a month. Those days are gone and we all have to work like crazy to enjoy a reasonable life (which potentially could dissapear at your yearly(or 6 monthly) Medical check..thats it..game over..)
Dont get me wrong here I love flying airplanes, but one has to have a serious reality check before entering this industry. It will cut your throat and spit you out if you dont approach it realistically.What other industry will you find people actually wanting to PAY to do a job?? ANd unfortunalty there are many shysters out there who will take your money..Ryanair and Easyjet both want you to front £25000 to train on their aircraft if get offered a job(you get that back over 5 years..but add that to the already outstanding 55K you owe minus interest)
This hopefull hasnt put you off the notion, but must be considered if you trying to chage careers or something. If you can afford it, keep you real job, with all its benefits ie days off, T&C that are actually kept by your emplyer, rights etc.. and keep flying as a fun thing on the side as a hobby.
250 'til the marker,
I basically started 15 years ago as a young flight student doing my PPL all the way thru, the IMC rating, Multiengine ratings and finally a single engine CPL and a Multiengine CPL(both with IMC rights). Now the fun starts.. you are basically worthless to anybody without experience (no experience=no job...no job without experience ,repeat ad naseum) so you have to spend alot of time throwing CVs out, knocking on doors and networking.
The usual step is to study for your flight instructor certificate, take that and hopefully get hired by your flightschool and start building hours (thats what its about..HOURS logged equals experience) so you spend alot of days with next to no pay as you grind out hours, all the whilst you sit and watch your bank loans getting whacked with interest...£55k is the going price today by the time you add the MCC course to it. Then if you are lucky you meet somebody who is flying a small twin (baron, C421, 414etc..) and you can mooch some hours out of them or even get hired as a freelance pilot to drive that one around(for free, for the hours, because if you dont, the next guy will). All the while again you wait for the airlines to start hiring again.
Oh yea..dont let you IMC rating expire either you need that and will have to keep it current at your own expense.
Over time you crank out the hours if lucky, then you might strike a deal with a company who will train you as an FO on a turbine powered KingAir, in return you will fly for peanuts(or nothing as you have become desperate...keep an eye on the interest payments again..) and slowly you will get more interesting for a potential small charter operator (hours, the more the better..except turbine hours are best)
Waheey...next thing you know, you are checked out as Captain on the kingair200 and are now on 24hr standby, 7 days a week all year (yes illegal per CAA..but you are listed as "contactable with 2 hours notice" and not "Standy" so the company is in the clearm but you are screwed by having your mobile switched on all the time, have no life, most likely never see the kids/wifes/pets birthdays/holidays as you will be stuck in some s
tty airport during these times)Now you can start looking around..Corporate jobs (Like me, I am now a Challenger 605 captain, charter outfits who fly bizjets )remember, the bigger the jet, the bigger the suitcase as you will be gone for 2-4 weeks at a time on the Global Expresses, BBJs etc.. Trust me, being stuck in a hotel for 3 weeks at a time by yourself aint fun. Hopefully you actually get along with the other pilot)
Time goes on and you build hours, do more networking and hopefully find a job that satisfies all your requirements for a balanced lifestyle(quality)...this is what makes airline soooo appealing...you get a schedule and roster.
Flying Cargo is another option, but the smaller operators are all night flying, crappy old equipment (if the button,knob,dial is dusty..dont touch it) been there done that.. Air Ambulance.. done that..hard but very satisfiing saving lives (stupid tourists almost killing themselves on jetskis)... bank repo jobs..done that as a freelancer.. ferried arplanes all over the place for workshops/paintshops..again decrepid aircraft with which the FAA gave a singlepilot permission so they knew how many bodies to look for if I stacked it.
Basically this business aint rosey like the flightschools want you to beleive, they will blow sunshine up your ass to entice you to spend ALOT of dosh with them. It is a Gamble, and you have to make it clear with yourself and your dependants of the time, money, blood and sweat you have to invest. As a matter of fact, it could all fail and you might just simply not get any further after your CPL... I know many of my friends from Flightschool who just did not get the breaks to move on.
The flying publc just never know any of this, they see the ubiquitous airline captain and think that all pilots are over paid and work 4 days a month. Those days are gone and we all have to work like crazy to enjoy a reasonable life (which potentially could dissapear at your yearly(or 6 monthly) Medical check..thats it..game over..)
Dont get me wrong here I love flying airplanes, but one has to have a serious reality check before entering this industry. It will cut your throat and spit you out if you dont approach it realistically.What other industry will you find people actually wanting to PAY to do a job?? ANd unfortunalty there are many shysters out there who will take your money..Ryanair and Easyjet both want you to front £25000 to train on their aircraft if get offered a job(you get that back over 5 years..but add that to the already outstanding 55K you owe minus interest)
This hopefull hasnt put you off the notion, but must be considered if you trying to chage careers or something. If you can afford it, keep you real job, with all its benefits ie days off, T&C that are actually kept by your emplyer, rights etc.. and keep flying as a fun thing on the side as a hobby.
250 'til the marker,
Hence one reason why I'm not going to do a direct access course with the likes of CTC/Oxford, and they both come out around £90k! then you have a type-rating on top of that to get.
With regards to the Type-rating most airlines now bound you to 5ish years and will make you pay £10k up front with the rest (approx £15k) coming out over a period of time.
Have to say thanks for your comments it's good to hear the positive and negative sides from your posts and also the various Pilots i see daily.
Is it going to stop me doing it? Nope, and do I have a back up plan? Yep, like I have said I've been researching for a while now.
With regards to the Type-rating most airlines now bound you to 5ish years and will make you pay £10k up front with the rest (approx £15k) coming out over a period of time.
Have to say thanks for your comments it's good to hear the positive and negative sides from your posts and also the various Pilots i see daily.
Is it going to stop me doing it? Nope, and do I have a back up plan? Yep, like I have said I've been researching for a while now.
bristol, is the seminar the one run by flyer magazine? waste of time imho. much better to investigate the schools you're interested, speak to their past students on pprune then contact/visit them directly.
like you, I studied aero. eng. as a fallback option to becoming a pilot but the industry imploded whilst still studying (graduated in 03). didn't fancy the mil option and now I'm on the cusp of being able to afford my own training I don't think its the sensible option to take. flying for fun is now my intended option.
anyway, read lots of pprune and think hard. if you're willing to make the financial and personal sacrifices that go with the territory, then do it. I still have days where I think I should, but at 30 I just don't fancy a transient lifestyle and being in my 40s before it pays off.
lastly, I think we'll have mutual friends, I know a few guys in wing design at filton.
like you, I studied aero. eng. as a fallback option to becoming a pilot but the industry imploded whilst still studying (graduated in 03). didn't fancy the mil option and now I'm on the cusp of being able to afford my own training I don't think its the sensible option to take. flying for fun is now my intended option.
anyway, read lots of pprune and think hard. if you're willing to make the financial and personal sacrifices that go with the territory, then do it. I still have days where I think I should, but at 30 I just don't fancy a transient lifestyle and being in my 40s before it pays off.
lastly, I think we'll have mutual friends, I know a few guys in wing design at filton.
Bristol99 said:
I am 28 and work freelance as a aerospace engineer currently hold a lead engineer role on the wing design of the Airbus A350XWB, in which financially I do pretty well.
What state of fkedness is it currently in? Oh yeah and the engines...absolutely not my fault ok? They almost worked when I left!Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff