MBNA / American express - can they do this ?
Discussion
Long story short:
Called out of the blue by the Virgin Atlantic flying club and spoke to the Mrs."Are you aware you've got some air miles, can we do anything to help you, are you aware the miles will expire, take out one of our Vrigin Atlantic MBNA credit cards and the points stay there for ever and you can add to them".
Strangley enough we had been talking about an air miles credit card so she listens to the sell. You go via the Virgin site to do your shopping and earn extra miles, everything you spend earns miles, etc, etc. Because of our spending profile it made sense to pay £115 for their black card which earnt more miles. The clincher was the chap's comment that we hadn't got anything to loose because there was a cooling off period if we didn't think it was right for us.
Accepted there and then, email came through to confirm acceptance, click here to a web page where you clicked yes I accept the terms and 2 cards come through the post. Incidentally when I tried to access that "terms and conditions" website again I can't get through, it says you've already accepted the terms.
I was a bit surprised to see the cards were in fact American Express, no mention at all had been made of American Express up to that point. Anyway, the missus trys to do the Ocado shop via the Virgin site and can't get her Ocado account / website up so that's no good and we get loads of retailers who won't accept American Express, as a retailer myself I know why - because they charge twice the fees and take longer to pay you. Long and short of it is that after a couple of weeks we decide it isn't working, there's no point in having an air miles card that you can't put all your spending through.
Call MBNA to cancel, we haven't had our first statement through yet so they give us a settlement figure for the 11 purchases we have managed to make (actually one is supposed to be being refunded but not showing as such on the account yet). No problem except they want to keep their £115 on the grounds that we've made a purchase.
I explain that until we start using the card we don't know retailers don't accept the MBNA credit card and no mention has been made anywhere in the tele-sales patter that it's an American Express card. Tough, it was clearly laid out in the Ts & Cs which you "signed". As far as we are aware no physical paperwork ever came through, just this webpage which is a one time only access.
Anyway ended up speaking directly with Diarmuid Morgan the head of the department who says tough mate, we're keeping our £115 so chalk it down to experience and make sure you have a good read of the small print next time. His argument was that they had already given us air miles (which don't show on our Virgin Flying Club account), so that's your lot. Now I hate people who come straight onto the internet and moan so I had a long chat and cleared it with him for me to discuss the matter in public and he said yes, he was happy to stand by his descision.
so my question is this. Have MBNA broken the law? Are they allowed to hide the fact their card is an American Express credit card? Obviously now knowing how hard it is to use an American Express credit card I can see why they would keep it quiet. Can they make false / spurious claims in the Tele-sale pitch and still keep the £115?
One of the main problems is that if not all retailers accept American Express / MBNA then it kicks into touch the calculations which made it worthwhile paying the £115 in the first place. You need to spend a certain amount a year for the £115 to pay it's self off.
I have to say I'm left feeling very bitter towards both MBNA and the Virgin Atlantic flying club. I'm not saying we won't fly with them again, clearly if they are cheaper than BA club then we'll use them but it all seems a bit murky and I would have though against the rules of tele selling for credit cards.
There was no balance transfer etc, we use cards merely for convinience paying them off each month.
Hopefully someone better versed in these matters can advise. Ultimately for the sake of £115 no one is going to go hungry but it does seem wrong.
Thanks in advance.
Henry
Called out of the blue by the Virgin Atlantic flying club and spoke to the Mrs."Are you aware you've got some air miles, can we do anything to help you, are you aware the miles will expire, take out one of our Vrigin Atlantic MBNA credit cards and the points stay there for ever and you can add to them".
Strangley enough we had been talking about an air miles credit card so she listens to the sell. You go via the Virgin site to do your shopping and earn extra miles, everything you spend earns miles, etc, etc. Because of our spending profile it made sense to pay £115 for their black card which earnt more miles. The clincher was the chap's comment that we hadn't got anything to loose because there was a cooling off period if we didn't think it was right for us.
Accepted there and then, email came through to confirm acceptance, click here to a web page where you clicked yes I accept the terms and 2 cards come through the post. Incidentally when I tried to access that "terms and conditions" website again I can't get through, it says you've already accepted the terms.
I was a bit surprised to see the cards were in fact American Express, no mention at all had been made of American Express up to that point. Anyway, the missus trys to do the Ocado shop via the Virgin site and can't get her Ocado account / website up so that's no good and we get loads of retailers who won't accept American Express, as a retailer myself I know why - because they charge twice the fees and take longer to pay you. Long and short of it is that after a couple of weeks we decide it isn't working, there's no point in having an air miles card that you can't put all your spending through.
Call MBNA to cancel, we haven't had our first statement through yet so they give us a settlement figure for the 11 purchases we have managed to make (actually one is supposed to be being refunded but not showing as such on the account yet). No problem except they want to keep their £115 on the grounds that we've made a purchase.
I explain that until we start using the card we don't know retailers don't accept the MBNA credit card and no mention has been made anywhere in the tele-sales patter that it's an American Express card. Tough, it was clearly laid out in the Ts & Cs which you "signed". As far as we are aware no physical paperwork ever came through, just this webpage which is a one time only access.
Anyway ended up speaking directly with Diarmuid Morgan the head of the department who says tough mate, we're keeping our £115 so chalk it down to experience and make sure you have a good read of the small print next time. His argument was that they had already given us air miles (which don't show on our Virgin Flying Club account), so that's your lot. Now I hate people who come straight onto the internet and moan so I had a long chat and cleared it with him for me to discuss the matter in public and he said yes, he was happy to stand by his descision.
so my question is this. Have MBNA broken the law? Are they allowed to hide the fact their card is an American Express credit card? Obviously now knowing how hard it is to use an American Express credit card I can see why they would keep it quiet. Can they make false / spurious claims in the Tele-sale pitch and still keep the £115?
One of the main problems is that if not all retailers accept American Express / MBNA then it kicks into touch the calculations which made it worthwhile paying the £115 in the first place. You need to spend a certain amount a year for the £115 to pay it's self off.
I have to say I'm left feeling very bitter towards both MBNA and the Virgin Atlantic flying club. I'm not saying we won't fly with them again, clearly if they are cheaper than BA club then we'll use them but it all seems a bit murky and I would have though against the rules of tele selling for credit cards.
There was no balance transfer etc, we use cards merely for convinience paying them off each month.
Hopefully someone better versed in these matters can advise. Ultimately for the sake of £115 no one is going to go hungry but it does seem wrong.
Thanks in advance.
Henry
Henry,
Two things.
1. I assume that before signing up, the Ts & Cs page was available, which I assume referred to Amex, and was read and understood? Or was the box just checked without reading? If the latter, caveat emptor in my view.
2. There must be in place a formal complaints system. Usually, this will mean that you can raise a formal complaint in writing with the provider, Virgin/MNBA in this case I think, and then if you do not like the response you can request an outside agency to make formal investigations for you. In this case it is likely to be the Financial Ombudsman Service (Virgin/MBA must advise you who it is when they respond to your formal complaint). Write to the FOS, or whoever it is, they will investigate, and if they find in your favour they will make a formal and legally binding determination against the other party.
Hope this helps for a start.
R.
Two things.
1. I assume that before signing up, the Ts & Cs page was available, which I assume referred to Amex, and was read and understood? Or was the box just checked without reading? If the latter, caveat emptor in my view.
2. There must be in place a formal complaints system. Usually, this will mean that you can raise a formal complaint in writing with the provider, Virgin/MNBA in this case I think, and then if you do not like the response you can request an outside agency to make formal investigations for you. In this case it is likely to be the Financial Ombudsman Service (Virgin/MBA must advise you who it is when they respond to your formal complaint). Write to the FOS, or whoever it is, they will investigate, and if they find in your favour they will make a formal and legally binding determination against the other party.
Hope this helps for a start.
R.
This is the problem, I can't access the page to see what it did or didn't say. It seems that MBNA are quite keen to put one way valves everywhere. Once you put the phone down on the tele-sales caller the number they leave you with "If you have any other questions" is only for existing customers when you hit the auto receptionist (press 1 for this, 2 for that and so on).
The same seems true with their Terms and conditions page, once you click yes it vanishes for ever. The fact it was an American Express card in it's self isn't an issue. The problem is that apparently somewhere in MBNA's terms which we supposedly signed it says that as soon as you use the card you've kissed goodbye to your £115. Obviously there is some delay in going to the page on the website and receiving your cards. All we know is the tele-sales guy said you've got nothing to lose because there is a cooling off period.
I'm left with the feeling you should never ever take up a telephone based offer. I thought MBNA were a known brand and so assumed all would be well. It's not as though they are a back street outfit. Also the fact it came through the Virgin Atlantic flying club meant they wouldn't hook up with someone trying to pull the wool over your eyes and puts you off guard.
The issue is the fact that so many places don't take American Express credit cards. MBNA & Virgin Atlantic must know this, hence not mentioning American Express in the tele-sales patter. You only find out when you go to try using the card at which point, so it would seem, you are stuffed. You've just done £115.
Henry
The same seems true with their Terms and conditions page, once you click yes it vanishes for ever. The fact it was an American Express card in it's self isn't an issue. The problem is that apparently somewhere in MBNA's terms which we supposedly signed it says that as soon as you use the card you've kissed goodbye to your £115. Obviously there is some delay in going to the page on the website and receiving your cards. All we know is the tele-sales guy said you've got nothing to lose because there is a cooling off period.
I'm left with the feeling you should never ever take up a telephone based offer. I thought MBNA were a known brand and so assumed all would be well. It's not as though they are a back street outfit. Also the fact it came through the Virgin Atlantic flying club meant they wouldn't hook up with someone trying to pull the wool over your eyes and puts you off guard.
The issue is the fact that so many places don't take American Express credit cards. MBNA & Virgin Atlantic must know this, hence not mentioning American Express in the tele-sales patter. You only find out when you go to try using the card at which point, so it would seem, you are stuffed. You've just done £115.
Henry
as a thought, maybe apply for another one, will you get to see the t&c page then Henry?
Yes, its thoroughly underhand and crappy but I can't see how it's illegal short of some type of misrepresentation.
Also, keeping the money is appalling and I'd imagine pretty short sighted given how many people you will now tell this sorry tale to.
best of luck
Yes, its thoroughly underhand and crappy but I can't see how it's illegal short of some type of misrepresentation.
Also, keeping the money is appalling and I'd imagine pretty short sighted given how many people you will now tell this sorry tale to.
best of luck
I shouldn't have to apply for a second MBNA credit card and pay another £115 just to see the terms and conditions page of my contract surely?
As you say it has really got to me. I said to Diarmuid Morgan at MBNA what I was planning to do in terms of publicising my unhappiness and made really sure he understood the reasons for my dissatisfaction, it wasn't just a change of heart. In fact the £115 credit card fee is a positive bargain when compared to another of our cards! I did say that I didn't think it was MBNA's finest move in keeping the £115. Given I lead such a boring life it's all I'll be talking about for the next 6 months
Henry
As you say it has really got to me. I said to Diarmuid Morgan at MBNA what I was planning to do in terms of publicising my unhappiness and made really sure he understood the reasons for my dissatisfaction, it wasn't just a change of heart. In fact the £115 credit card fee is a positive bargain when compared to another of our cards! I did say that I didn't think it was MBNA's finest move in keeping the £115. Given I lead such a boring life it's all I'll be talking about for the next 6 months
Henry
As mentioned MBNA will have an official complaints process. Follow that, and request a copy of the terms & conditions. Accepting the T&C's is the same as signing them when applying via the web.
If the T&C's clearly state the £115 issue then no it is not illegal, and did you read them?? Too many people just accept and click through. In fairness to them it's not hard to see it's an Amex card, type it into google and you can't miss it!!
This seems more like a bad customer experience than anything legally wrong. But Virgin are known for their excellent customer service so maybe go direct to them and explain how badly you feel you've been treated.
If the T&C's clearly state the £115 issue then no it is not illegal, and did you read them?? Too many people just accept and click through. In fairness to them it's not hard to see it's an Amex card, type it into google and you can't miss it!!
This seems more like a bad customer experience than anything legally wrong. But Virgin are known for their excellent customer service so maybe go direct to them and explain how badly you feel you've been treated.
sanf said:
As mentioned MBNA will have an official complaints process. Follow that, and request a copy of the terms & conditions. Accepting the T&C's is the same as signing them when applying via the web.
If the T&C's clearly state the £115 issue then no it is not illegal, and did you read them?? Too many people just accept and click through. In fairness to them it's not hard to see it's an Amex card, type it into google and you can't miss it!!
This seems more like a bad customer experience than anything legally wrong. But Virgin are known for their excellent customer service so maybe go direct to them and explain how badly you feel you've been treated.
The problem is I will never know exactly what was on that web page because once you tick yes you can't go back. They could send me any bit of paper they like.If the T&C's clearly state the £115 issue then no it is not illegal, and did you read them?? Too many people just accept and click through. In fairness to them it's not hard to see it's an Amex card, type it into google and you can't miss it!!
This seems more like a bad customer experience than anything legally wrong. But Virgin are known for their excellent customer service so maybe go direct to them and explain how badly you feel you've been treated.
What I think this does do is highlight the difference between making an informed choice whilst browsing on the internet or being conned into something by a bloke you've never spoken to before or since who called you out of the blue on the telephone. I don't really fancy wasting my time trying to speak with managers of MBNA and / or Virgin Atlantic. I made my case to MBNA at a senior level and it was rejected.
What I am doing is taking steps to ensure others don't suffer as I have done.
Henry
link to the terms and conditions on the Mbna virgin website
https://www.euapplyonlinenow.com/UKCCapp/Ctl/link?...
https://www.euapplyonlinenow.com/UKCCapp/Ctl/link?...
Did the cards come with a set of Terms and Conditions? I have the Virgin white Amex and I'm pretty sure it came with a booklet of terms and conditions, certainly they send me a fresh set quite often, I imagine it has details about when the annual fee is payable.
The cooling off period is so that you have time to read the full T&Cs on paper, just in case you couldn't/didn't read the one online. Often cooling off periods are voided as soon as you make use of a service, eg. I bought a PAYG from from Three and it had a 14-day cooling off period where you could open the box, switch on the phone and make free calls and still return it, but as soon as you make a chargeable call the cooling off finishes.
The cooling off period is so that you have time to read the full T&Cs on paper, just in case you couldn't/didn't read the one online. Often cooling off periods are voided as soon as you make use of a service, eg. I bought a PAYG from from Three and it had a 14-day cooling off period where you could open the box, switch on the phone and make free calls and still return it, but as soon as you make a chargeable call the cooling off finishes.
Clicking the link just says your credit card application is unavailable.
Re getting terms with the cards we (the missus) is normally quite good with paperwork and we can find info relation to insurance that came with the card but nothing else. I'm not saying we didn't get some info but we can't find it anywhere. Similarly any terms and conditions on an MBNA website are all good but I want to know what was on the page I can no longer access?
The issue I have is that even if it did say somewhere within a terms and conditions page that the second you use your card you're into MBNA for £115 how would I know that so many companies won't take American Express / the Virgin Atlantic flying club card until I go to use the card? The whole thing about a rewards based credit card is that you want to use it for all your spending so as to get as many air miles as possible.
The only reason we took out the card was to get air miles, no other reason. Iit was offered through the Virgin Atlantic Flying club for that very purpose. I have never had someone say to me they don't take Visa or MasterCard.
Henry
Re getting terms with the cards we (the missus) is normally quite good with paperwork and we can find info relation to insurance that came with the card but nothing else. I'm not saying we didn't get some info but we can't find it anywhere. Similarly any terms and conditions on an MBNA website are all good but I want to know what was on the page I can no longer access?
The issue I have is that even if it did say somewhere within a terms and conditions page that the second you use your card you're into MBNA for £115 how would I know that so many companies won't take American Express / the Virgin Atlantic flying club card until I go to use the card? The whole thing about a rewards based credit card is that you want to use it for all your spending so as to get as many air miles as possible.
The only reason we took out the card was to get air miles, no other reason. Iit was offered through the Virgin Atlantic Flying club for that very purpose. I have never had someone say to me they don't take Visa or MasterCard.
Henry
I am pretty sure any terms and conditions must be provided to a customer on a 'durable medium'.
If you look for the meaning of that from an FSA point of view, that means paper,or email or web site that you can access at any time.
If their web site or whatever no longer affords you access to the T&Cs, I think they are breaching some FSA guidelines.
But for £115, you are better off chalking it up or writing to one of those newspaper financial aunts who can publicise the breach.
If you look for the meaning of that from an FSA point of view, that means paper,or email or web site that you can access at any time.
If their web site or whatever no longer affords you access to the T&Cs, I think they are breaching some FSA guidelines.
But for £115, you are better off chalking it up or writing to one of those newspaper financial aunts who can publicise the breach.
Annoying as it is you'll either have to put it down to experience and move on or write a complaint letter to the head office team to get a refund. They will have a recording of the call - so the refund shouldn't be an issue if you play out the "mis-sold" angle, it's just the hassle factor of writing the letter.
The fact you used the card scuppered you slightly in terms of getting the refund with minimal effort.
The fact you used the card scuppered you slightly in terms of getting the refund with minimal effort.
Henry, you need to write to MBNA stating that they have breached the TCF (Treating Customers Fairly) code as laid down by the FSA. You also need to tell them that you will forward a complaint to the FSA in relation to this breach unless the rectify the situation immediately. The FSA take TCF very seriously and I would be very surprised if they don't back down if you threaten them with this. Good luck.
Being miserable, absolutely everything on the internet shows the Virgin Atlantic card is an Amex. As does the card itself, as does the letter it comes attached to, as does the envelope it all comes in. Once you received the card(s) did you not also have to go online and activate them as I did? I guess what I'm getting at is that, even if the telesales bod didn't make it 100% crystal clear, there is a mass of material you have to get through before you can even start spending that says it's an Amex.
Don't know why your missus couldn't get the Ocado thing set up, they take Amex no problem. She also didn't need to go through the VA account, since you had the black card - so you were already getting the 2 miles per pound. You only get double miles on the white card if you go through the VA site.
Your airmiles won't show on your VA account until after you've paid the bill. I find it can take up to 2 weeks to update - presumably this is to stop people doing chargebacks and keeping the miles.
I think you're on a hiding to nothing to be honest, but if you get it sorted to your satisfaction then well done
Don't know why your missus couldn't get the Ocado thing set up, they take Amex no problem. She also didn't need to go through the VA account, since you had the black card - so you were already getting the 2 miles per pound. You only get double miles on the white card if you go through the VA site.
Your airmiles won't show on your VA account until after you've paid the bill. I find it can take up to 2 weeks to update - presumably this is to stop people doing chargebacks and keeping the miles.
I think you're on a hiding to nothing to be honest, but if you get it sorted to your satisfaction then well done
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