DVLA legal action advice.

[jimmybobby]

Hi All

I recently sold a car which had a private/irish plate. I didnt get around to transferring the plate off before sale. As part of negotiation with the new owner he advised if I dropped my price by £50 I could keep the plate he didnt care so I dropped my plate.

Long and short I was unsure if I intended to retain the plate initially but since he messed me around a bit I decided to keep it and advised him of this when I dropped it off with him. He was not overly thrilled nor were his parents who were present but i figured who cares I will do so anyway.

I therefore sent off the change of owner paperwork and relevant docs for numberplate retention. I recently got a letter from dvla advising I was no longer registered keeper of the car. No retention certificate.

I have just called and been told it was denied as the car was untaxed from date of sale. I asked if I would receive a refund of tax from point of sale to end of month and was told not. I pointed out that therefore the car was not untaxed as road tax had been paid and until I sent them the paperwork they were unaware of new owner and would have considered the car to be legally taxed until such time as I advised them otherwise and they would have continued to debit my account. Ergo car could not have been un taxed.

I am wondering if any of the legal beagles think it would be worth wasting some of my time launching a small claims court claim against the DVLA for the value of the plate which is not huge only about £3-400 but it pisses me off that they are trying it on like this. I can prove the plates value as I had it on ebay at one point and had bids so can prove what people were/are willing to pay for it.

[jimmybobby]

TooMany2cvs said:

jimmybobby said:

I recently sold a car which had a private/irish plate.

Northern Irish, I presume you mean? Big difference.

jimmybobby said:

I therefore sent off the change of owner paperwork... I recently got a letter from dvla advising I was no longer registered keeper of the car.

...would have considered the car to be legally taxed until such time as I advised them otherwise

Which you did by telling them of a change of keeper.

They did exactly what you asked them to do - you sent them a V5C with new keeper details and the NI plate still on it - so you've transferred the plate to the new keeper. Their plate now, not yours.

DO THE PLATE TRANSFER FIRST. Completely do it.

I sent plate transfer paperwork at the same time as change of ownership which I was advised by a member of staff was acceptable.

[jimmybobby]

harveys said:

Considering the car buyer didn't even want it for £50...it's probably worth less you think

Ebay auction tends to disagree but thanks for your viewpoint.

[jimmybobby]

Davel said:

You can now do it on line in minutes but sadly too late in this instance.

You would think however it refused to let me do it online hence my sending off the paperwork. When I tried to do it online car was taxed, insured and MOT'd in my name but the system said I had to apply by paper.

[jimmybobby]

Davel said:

That's exactly what happened to me so I stalled on the sale till the paperwork was completed.

DVLA say that it can now mostly be done live on-line though.

Sadly I could not stall on the sale. I needed it gone before its MOT ran out.

[jimmybobby]

BertBert said:

In answer to your question, no not worth it.

Thanks Bertbert

I assume aside from wasting their time and a little of my money logic has little chance of success against law in this ?

[jimmybobby]

Breadvan72 said:

jimmybobby said:

BertBert said:

In answer to your question, no not worth it.

Thanks Bertbert

I assume aside from wasting their time and a little of my money logic has little chance of success against law in this ?

The DVLA's money is public money, so by wasting DVLA's time in a pointless claim you would be wasting your own money and that of everyone else. Please don't!

I assumed my above post somewhat answered that anyway. Bertbert advised against and albeit not really in the spirit of PH I decided to take his advice.

[jimmybobby]

Roo said:

jimmybobby said:

Sadly I could not stall on the sale. I needed it gone before its MOT ran out.

Of course you could. It doesn't take long to do a retention.

It had two weeks MOT left on day of sale. The online system would not allow me to retain it and said I had to send off the paperwork. I was having a ballache selling it and as such having got a buyer I was not going to ask that they wait till I received the retention certificate before taking ownership as the mot will possibly have run out by then.

I was also advised I did not need to ask the buyer to wait as I could send both documents at the same time and the plate would be retained and the new owner issued a new V5 with a new plate. I now know this not to be the case.

Welcome to the DVLA. Inept and corrupt.

[jimmybobby]

PurpleMoonlight said:

Can you clarify something.

Did they take your £80 and then refuse to effect the transfer you had paid for?

In fairness something I still need to check but havent really had time.

[jimmybobby]

V8LM said:

jimmybobby said:

I sent plate transfer paperwork at the same time as change of ownership which I was advised by a member of staff was acceptable.

Staff of the DVLA?

Transfer of reg and transfer of RK can't be done simultaneously - what reg is listed on the V5C that you signed? Who was named as the RK on the transfer document?

You can transfer reg online and is instant, the new V5 arrives a little time (days*) later.

• usually

Edited by V8LM on Thursday 3rd September 07:05

I called DVLA registration staff and asked before dropping car with its new owner and they were the ones who advised I could send both docs at the same time.

[jimmybobby]

REALIST123 said:

jimmybobby said:

Roo said:

jimmybobby said:

Sadly I could not stall on the sale. I needed it gone before its MOT ran out.

Of course you could. It doesn't take long to do a retention.

It had two weeks MOT left on day of sale. The online system would not allow me to retain it and said I had to send off the paperwork. I was having a ballache selling it and as such having got a buyer I was not going to ask that they wait till I received the retention certificate before taking ownership as the mot will possibly have run out by then.

I was also advised I did not need to ask the buyer to wait as I could send both documents at the same time and the plate would be retained and the new owner issued a new V5 with a new plate. I now know this not to be the case.

Welcome to the DVLA. Inept and corrupt.

Yes' they are often inept but corrupt? Not really.

I am surprised that anyone, these days, would not know that it's by far the safest way to complete retention of a number before selling a car. It's been that way for years.

If the car was up for sale why not put the number on retention as soon as it was up for sale? It doesn't sound like you decided to sell and sold it that same day or even week?

No, in this case, you got what you deserved. Take responsibility for your own mistake.

As for thinking an eBay auction valuation is remotely accurate........that's your second mistake.

I fully accept I ballsed up by not taking the plate off earlier however I was undecided on whether to keep it and thought it could be added in part to value of the car. Seems that was a mistake.

As for corrupt yes as far as I am concerned they are. Their argument that the car was not taxed from the moment I handed it over to the new keeper is absolutely flawed. 1 Until I send them documents stating I have sold it to someone they consider it to still be taxed as they are unware it has a new owner so if I fail to send them the change of notification docs they will continue to take payments from my account and will consider it taxed.

2 If i notify them I sold it on say the 15th of a month they will not refund the days it is no longer my car ergo they are keeping money to which they are not entitled or they are stating the car is taxed to the end of that month. As far as I am concerned their position is contradictory.

Edited by jimmybobby on Thursday 3rd September 17:16

[jimmybobby]

Vaud said:

Inept? Inefficient? Yup, probably.

Corrupt? "having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain"

No, disagree. No personal gain. No intent to deceive. No dishonesty.

There is a gain in that they retain a sum of money to which they are not or should not be entitled as they are not providing anything for said sum of money if you sell the car midway through a month.

[jimmybobby]

paintman said:

You had the reg for sale on ebay.
For some reason it didn't actually sell.
What was the reason?

I put it on fleabay to get a more realistic value of the plate than the one I was getting from the websites but valued it a lot higher than I felt it would go as was unsure if I wanted to sell it.

[jimmybobby]

GreatGranny said:

Because the OP thought his NI plate (NOT private plate) was worth something.

They are not.

I had bids on ebay up to 380 with buyer paying all fess for reg transfer.

[jimmybobby]

Vaud said:

jimmybobby said:

There is a gain in that they retain a sum of money to which they are not or should not be entitled as they are not providing anything for said sum of money if you sell the car midway through a month.

However, if that is enshrined in legislation then they are not, by definition, operating illegally?

Yet again proving my belief the law is an ass. It may not be illegal in law but in basic logic it is or should be illegal.

[jimmybobby]

swerni said:

jimmybobby said:

Vaud said:

jimmybobby said:

There is a gain in that they retain a sum of money to which they are not or should not be entitled as they are not providing anything for said sum of money if you sell the car midway through a month.

However, if that is enshrined in legislation then they are not, by definition, operating illegally?

Yet again proving my belief the law is an ass. It may not be illegal in law but in basic logic it is or should be illegal.

Wha's the ass?
"You must not sell or get rid of your vehicle until you receive a new registration certificate, as the new keeper will be entitled to keep the registration number if they want to."

If you can't follow simple instructions......

And if you cant be bothered to read my above posts... I spoke with the department that deals with private registrations to clarify this BEFORE sending the documents and it is THEM who told me I could send BOTH the change of keeper and registration plate retention paperwork at the same time. If they had said "No you need to send in retention docs first as car will be classed as untaxed from date on new keeper supplement then change of keeper" then amazingly I would not have sent both docs at the same time.

THE DVLA registrations division is now claiming that the car was untaxed as from the date on the new keeper supplement so they could not allow me to retain the plate. Also bear in mind your cut and paste above makes no mention about road tax although I am sure you will dig up a statement about not being able to retain a plate on an untaxed car and so on.

Also interestingly just checked my accounts.

I sent the docs on the 3/4 of August and on the 3rd of August the DVLA debited my account for £20 or whatever it is for road tax and have not refunded it.
As such car tax was paid for full month in July and August yet they are claiming car was untaxed from date of sale which was about the 17th or so of July which is why they could not retain the plate. The fact they debited my account on 3rd of August means they considered the car taxed till the end of August.

[jimmybobby]

swerni said:

jimmybobby said:

swerni said:

jimmybobby said:

Vaud said:

jimmybobby said:

There is a gain in that they retain a sum of money to which they are not or should not be entitled as they are not providing anything for said sum of money if you sell the car midway through a month.

However, if that is enshrined in legislation then they are not, by definition, operating illegally?

Yet again proving my belief the law is an ass. It may not be illegal in law but in basic logic it is or should be illegal.

Wha's the ass?
"You must not sell or get rid of your vehicle until you receive a new registration certificate, as the new keeper will be entitled to keep the registration number if they want to."

If you can't follow simple instructions......

And if you cant be bothered to read my above posts... I spoke with the department that deals with private registrations to clarify this BEFORE sending the documents and it is THEM who told me I could send BOTH the change of keeper and registration plate retention paperwork at the same time. If they had said "No you need to send in retention docs first as car will be classed as untaxed from date on new keeper supplement then change of keeper" then amazingly I would not have sent both docs at the same time.

THE DVLA registrations division is now claiming that the car was untaxed as from the date on the new keeper supplement so they could not allow me to retain the plate. Also bear in mind your cut and paste above makes no mention about road tax although I am sure you will dig up a statement about not being able to retain a plate on an untaxed car and so on.

Also interestingly just checked my accounts.

I sent the docs on the 3/4 of August and on the 3rd of August the DVLA debited my account for £20 or whatever it is for road tax and have not refunded it.
As such car tax was paid for full month in July and August yet they are claiming car was untaxed from date of sale which was about the 17th or so of July which is why they could not retain the plate. The fact they debited my account on 3rd of August means they considered the car taxed till the end of August.

I did read your post, you couldn't clearly read simple instructions

You also can't transfer tax.
Therefore the car ceases to be taxed on the day YOU put on the form as being sold.
You can also only get tax back based on full months ( rightly or wrongly so, it's the way its)

Why is all that so difficult to comprehend?

Oh FFS Swerni are you being deliberately stupid.

The DVLA REGISTRATIONS DEPARTMENT TOLD ME ON THE PHONE I could SEND ALL DOCUMENTS TOGETHER.I did not read instructions. I ASKED THE PEOPLE WHO DO THE PROCESSING OF THE DOCUMENTATION THEMSELVES. I did as I was advised by the very people who process the paperwork and they have now turned around and told me they were wrong. How fking hard is it to comprehend that detail.

[jimmybobby]

Roo said:

Not only that, he was also selling the car.

You've had offers on the plate above the valuations by reg plate companies but still didn't put the reg on retention. You didn't read the bit about retaining the plate first and sent both sets of paperwork to one address when they're dealt with by different departments.

No i had offers below valuations by registration companies which was fine in principle as i was unsure whether i wanted to sell the plate. I did not put it on retention as i didn't feel the need to do so as i hadn't decided whether to keep it.

I had a look online to see if i could send both docs at the same time and all i found was comments from people saying you could do. I decided that wasn't good enough so called the DVLA to ask if it was possible to send both at once. The simple reality is i did not have time to waste trying to go through all the DVLA website garbage to find out if i could send both docs at once hence my calling the dvla which i could do while driving to a customer

[jimmybobby]

TooMany2cvs said:

jimmybobby said:

The DVLA REGISTRATIONS DEPARTMENT TOLD ME ON THE PHONE I could SEND ALL DOCUMENTS TOGETHER. I did not read instructions.

Anybody else would have decided it was a heck of a lot easier, as well as a heck of a lot more likely to get an authoritative and correct answer, to read the published documentation than fight half an hour or more of the seven circles of phone menu and hold music hell...

jimmybobby said:

I ASKED THE PEOPLE WHO DO THE PROCESSING OF THE DOCUMENTATION THEMSELVES.

No, you didn't. You asked the customer service phone team who answered on a specific number and/or menu option. And, even then, going by your performance in this thread, you heard what you wanted to hear.

Yes you are right i heard what i wanted to hear. I called and asked if i could send all documents at once and asked whether the plate would then be put on retention and a new v5 sent to the new owner. But clearly you were there and heard them tell me otherwise. The people who are meant to advise on how to do these things according to you told me i could not actually send retention and new keeper documents at once and still retain the plate.

[jimmybobby]

Roo said:

jimmybobby said:

Roo said:

Not only that, he was also selling the car.

You've had offers on the plate above the valuations by reg plate companies but still didn't put the reg on retention. You didn't read the bit about retaining the plate first and sent both sets of paperwork to one address when they're dealt with by different departments.

No i had offers below valuations by registration companies which was fine in principle as i was unsure whether i wanted to sell the plate. I did not put it on retention as i didn't feel the need to do so as i hadn't decided whether to keep it.

The sales valuations put on plates by a lot of reg companies can be pretty meaningless unless they're prepared to buy them.

However, you had the plate for sale and we're getting bids on it but still didn't put it on retention.

The reason I put it on fleabay was to get an idea of value not necessarily to sell it as I was well aware that the numberplate valutation people were probably stating utter bks. I didnt put it on retention as when i had it on fleabay the buyer was to pay for value of plate plus all associated costs for taking ownership transfer fees etc. Since it costs £80 to put a plate on retention I decided not to bother as i may sell it and would lose the £80 retention fee from the overall value of the plate.

They are basically legally skimming off the top and no doubt making hundreds of thousands from it. If I am paying £20 a month and I sell midway through the month they will charge the new owner £20 for that month plus they will keep the other £10 they do not refund.

As such each time this happens the DVLA makes £20+ . If you then consider cars in the top tax bands which cost near £4-£500 a year thats a fortune they are making out of it every time someone sells their car unless they sell it in the last week of a month so they can claim back the following months.

They cannot claim its untaxed but yet keep the road tax.

Edited by jimmybobby on Monday 7th September 14:47