Served notice; tenants refusing to move - HELP.

[Joe5y]

Hi all,

In need of some advice.

Having rented my house out for the past 6 years I have now decided to move back into this, my first house. My circumstances have changed but the biggest sway for making this decision is that the current tenants (of 4 years) have seriously damaged the property resulting it being un-rentable to others and isn't in a state to sell; if I had wanted to. Rather besides the point anyhow as put simply I want to move back into my house. As of today I moved out my 2nd house to make way for other tenants and am staying at a friends until I move back into my first house.

I served notice as per the tenancy agreement (and law) 2 months ago. Today however I got the following email forwarded from the letting agency that it is full managed by;

"Hi *****
We still have not managed to secure alternative accommodation. We have some viewings today but it's fine line to meet the deadline considering references will need to be done and we do not get paint until after the 24th deadline.
The landlord will have to be flexible. We have been good tenants and never missed paying rent for the whole period we have been here

Regards

• *** ******"

I assume he meant 'paid', not "paint". Also, thank you for paying the rent, he seems to think that this is a favour?!!

The agency have advised me that they are not willing to enter into a "part-time" contract or short extension owing the the implications of eviction without a correct tenancy agreement. As it stands I have workman arriving next Monday with 8+ contractors / tradesman booked to replace ceilings, carpets, kitchen, bathrooms and boiler etc. With the agency only sending my comments on what I need is a better idea as to what my options are?

My understanding is, Monday they're supposed to be gone; they won't be. I can't just walk in even though I have keys. They could, as I understand, stay as long as they want until I fart about with courts and get an eviction notice > 6months!

HELP!

[Joe5y]

Red Devil said:

OP, you need to read up on Section 8 and Section 21 notices. Which one was used? There are crucial differences.
In the meantime you must put your contractors on hold until you are certain that the tenants have vacated.

It was a section 21 notice served.

Contractors put back.

Now I need to rearrange work (self employed but have booked next week off in preparation).

[Joe5y]

PHCorvette said:

Sorry that is just some guidance, there is a change to the S21 requirements if the AST started after Oct 1st 2015 or the fixed portion of the AST expired after the 1st Oct 2015.

Here is Section 21 of the HA http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/sectio...

and here is section 37 of the Deregulations Act 2015 which amends Section 21 of the HA http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/20/sectio...

Here is some guidance on how to rent for tenants and landlords: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-to-...

good luck, the powers are now swift and effective if the notice was correctly served. In the past I had the local authority inform some tenants, in bloody writing, that as they had kids they may as well sit where they are as there is fk all chance of them being evicted any time soon. took 8 months to get rid but thankfully they at least paid their rent.

Some other guidance on serving notice https://www.gov.uk/guidance/gaining-possession-of-...

Edited by PHCorvette on Tuesday 19th January 02:00

Thank you, I will have a read through these tonight so I completely clued up.

They have also been told to stay put and that the council will not help them as they currently have a roof over their heads.

[Joe5y]

the_lone_wolf said:

As others have said, you might be in for a long fight here...

As much as you may hate to do it, pragmatically the most economical way may be to seek an agreement with the current tenants and get them out.

What's the tenant/landlord relationship been like during the four years? The email gives the impression that they're willing to move out, just want it to be more on their terms than yours...

If your tenants are both willing and tactful you could end up suffering for much longer than six months, better to get shot asap...

I have been advised not to enter into any short term agreement as this is a breach of landlord / tenancy agreements. Added to this the agency that I used will not entertain the idea.

The relationship is actually very good. 9/10 he contacts me directly for problems or questions. He has been more than happy for me to pop over with contractors to measure up in recent weeks and hasn't wanted the 2x day notice required (although I have always stuck to this agreement as to not invade privacy). He seems very happy with me having put in new showers and satisfied any requirements he has had.

It's me that has the resentment towards them, although I have not acted on this or shown it. Just frustrating when you see that every carpet has burn marks on (one in the living room from him putting a hot saucepan on the floor fresh off the hob, full of beans). Walls with holes and kids paint on. Wall paper ripped. Driveway with oil stains from his car DIY 'hobby' - although I have recently learnt that he has just registered as a director of a car repair "shop" at this address.

All this I have taken on the chin and have everything in place to make the house lovely again. Just want the buggers out.

[Joe5y]

the_lone_wolf said:

This would almost certainly breach the tenancy agreement wouldn't it? It certainly would with any TA I've seen

He's been in breach for 2 years now as he has 2x un-licensed vehicles on the drive and has had 2x more people staying there than appears on the TA.

the_lone_wolf said:

I see your point about a short term agreement, and as a tenant myself, I feel your pain!! With regards to the damage I'd insist he attend the check out and get photos of everything, explain that you intend to make deductions and what they're for but bear in mind it is his home and he will be entitled to reasonable wear and tear

The check-out clerk is booked for Monday (via the agency) and the tenant has taken a day off work to be there also. The carpet(s) are well out of the time frame to be claimable although this doesn't mean he should be able to burn them as he sees fit. The other damage will have to be chased from his deposit / small claims. Driveway is ruined from his 2x cars on the drive dropping oil for 2+ years. Holes in the roof / walls. 2x doors of hinges. Built in cupboards pulled out and disposed. The kitchen is an absolute state.

the_lone_wolf said:

If it does seem like the guy is genuinely intending to move out without giving you grief I'd say don't do anything to rock the boat. Even if he takes a few months I'd wager that's still the quickest way you'll see the back of him compared to ending up using the courts...

Unfortunately this is what I am thinking that I will have to do.

the_lone_wolf said:

Did you give notice under Section 8 or Section 21? I'm not sure on s.8 stuff but if it's s.21 be 100% certain you protected the deposit correctly, including protecting and serving the prescribed information within the 30 day time limit, if the tenant gets shirty and informed with you at a later date and the deposit hasn't been handled correctly you will be liable for a penalty and any s.21 notice that was issued while your obligations remain undischarged will be invalid...

It was a section 21 notice served. The deposit is protected in the correct accounts as per the TA with the agency.

Edited by Joe5y on Tuesday 19th January 20:06

[Joe5y]

wolf1 said:

To be fair OP unless you have given then more notice than the two months mentioned then quite a few would struggle to finance and find other accommodation suitable to them in such a short time frame, especially as they appear to have been there for a few years.

Maybe so, sort of defeats the idea of a notice period no?

Luckily I am not in this situation but if I was what would happen in the following circumstances;

I serve notice for say 1st feb. I plan for all work(s) to be completed within a week and have new tenants lined up for 7th feb. I only have enough money to cover the work(s) and one weeks loss of rent. Surely many landlord are in the situation that the mortgage is covered by the rent?

[Joe5y]

Thanks again for all advice.

To be clear on a few bits;

I own the house. It is a fully managed through an estate agency which they took the deposit (1.5 months @ £2025.) This is held in one of the schemes that by law it has to be.

The section 21 was served by them on my formal request. I requested this 7 days before their rent date but to keep things simple the section 21 was served on the rent date cycle.

The section 21 (4)(a) seems to consist of a 1 page document with the relevant names, addresses etc on. I will post this tomorrow once I have had chance to blank sensitive data out.

[Joe5y]

surveyor_101 said:

The problem you will have is if they want the council to help them they will be told not to move until they are served eviction papers by a bailiff. That's possibly what there doing. If they leave af the end of the section 21 notice date they have made themselves intentionally homeless in the eyes of the local housing authority.

The other issue you have is on a reference as they have damaged your house. Do you do a good one and get rid or do you do a bad one and get stuck with them.

They have already been told this (according to the Agency). Although I am not sure if this is just the agency giving me dud information.

It's not me that gives the reference, that again falls into the agencies hands. They have in actual fact refused to find them a new house and told them to look via another agency owing to the damage caused. They haven't been model tenants either. Catch 22 isn't - refuse to help, bad reference and hold back some if not all of their deposit just means that I'll have to put up with them for many more months.

Anyway, the S21 served is here; not that it'll show anything owing to sensitive data being removed. (It was also served with a covering letter stating that it is a S21 and the notice period etc etc

[Joe5y]

superlightr said:

The issues that jumps out to me is that the agents have dated the issuing of the notice for exactly 2 months.

The tenant must have a minimum of 2 months notice which if the agents dated it the 24th then the tenant cannot have valid notice until the 25th and its arguable that it should be the 26th is the earliest if hand delivered.

ie notice date 24 November 2015 The notice expires 24 January 2016 is not 2 months notice with service.

We would always give the notice a min of 5 days before the notice period. Ie notice would be dated 19 November 2015 with the expiry date of 24 Jan 2016. The tenant thus has 2 clear months notice and a few days.

What date is the covering letter and how was it issued?


The agents also have not used a 'catch all' term which has been pretty standard for many years. " 24 January 2016 Or at the end of the period of the tenancy which will end after the expiry of two months from service of this notice."

This allows some flexibility that if the dates have been screwed up for the notice to still be valid with the courts discretion.

As other have said you cant start anything until after the notice has expired. The delima I would suggest is is the notice valid in terms of giving 2 months notice? I dont think it is. Personally I would re-issue it today. You will just have time if done today for your agents to re-issue the notice and give 2 months notice. I would also suggest they use the catch all term after the expiry of the date. Are they a Letting agent or an Estate Agent that does a bit of letting on the side?

I will certainly ask for clarification on the above from the agency.

The actual date for me to take possession was going to be the 25th Jan owing to the 24th falling on a Sunday. The check out clerk is still booked according to the agency.

Are saying that it isn't 2 months notice owing to the amount of days of notice served? If this is the case how does a rent cycle work as that will always fall on a calendar month and doesn't take into account the amount of days?

The agency is both - or at least it claims to be. That said the lettings bit is managed by one main guy and his 'assistant' both of which are terrible at returning calls, being proactive, and formulating easily deciphered e-mails or letters.

The S21 was e-mailed to the tenant which the tenant confirmed receipt and popped in the following Saturday to sign a copy.

[Joe5y]

Devil2575 said:

Joe5y said:

(1.5 months @ £2025.)

£1350 a month rent!!

London or just a big house?

It's not an especially big house.

It's a converted 3 bed semi which now has a 4th open plan bedroom, garage and 3 car driveway. It's also in the catchment for 4 of the best local schools and within walking distance of the Waterloo train line.

It's also in Wokingham which doesn't help.

Locals 3 beds rent for £1100 - £1200.

[Joe5y]

superlightr said:

Joe5y said:

I will certainly ask for clarification on the above from the agency.

The actual date for me to take possession was going to be the 25th Jan owing to the 24th falling on a Sunday. The check out clerk is still booked according to the agency.

Are saying that it isn't 2 months notice owing to the amount of days of notice served? If this is the case how does a rent cycle work as that will always fall on a calendar month and doesn't take into account the amount of days?

The agency is both - or at least it claims to be. That said the lettings bit is managed by one main guy and his 'assistant' both of which are terrible at returning calls, being proactive, and formulating easily deciphered e-mails or letters.

The S21 was e-mailed to the tenant which the tenant confirmed receipt and popped in the following Saturday to sign a copy.

The expiry date is correct to be on the last day of a rental term but the notice should be issues some days before the start of the 2 months notice ie 4 days before to allow for service. Even hand delivered has been found to be effective from the next day rather then the day it was physically given to the tenant. Thus giving notice 2mths and 7 days before is good practice.

Would recommend using a dedicated Letting Agency not an estate agent in future.

Ah, I get what you are saying. Frustratingly from my perspective I actually served 2 months and 7 days notice but this was to the agency. They told me that if they served notice then it would fall a week short of the rent cycle so that they would derive notice on the correct day, retrospectively I wish I had just told them to give them notice but date it forward giving them extra time.

So I guess the general consensus is to allow them to stay whilst keeping them happy so they pay for the time they're there? Don't know how I'll do this however as the agency don't want to enter into a short term (week(s) or 1 months TA). So how can I do this on my own and protect myself?

[Joe5y]

Wings said:

OP you need to take a more active part in being a landlord, particularly before commencing legal repossession proceedings.

Whilst the Section 21 Notice is cutting the notice period fine, as poster "superlightr" pointed out, it is always advisable when serving the Notice, to accord extra days in addition to the 2 months notice period.

The Assured Shorthand Tenancy Notices and Prescribed Requirements (England) Regulations 2015 (link below), published and prescribed the form that the new Section 21 Notice must be used from 1 October 2015.

From the above date, there was a new requirement that a valid Section 21 Notice could only be served, if the tenant had been given both the Energy Performance Certificate (hereafter EPC) and a currant Gas Safety Certificate (hereafter GSC). It is therefore advisable that when serving a Section 21 Notice, to attach copies of both the EPC and GSC, the same removing any chance of possible arguments arising during court proceedings.

OP check the starting date on tenancy agreement/s, comparing the starting date of the same against the date on the Section 21 Notice, ensure the tenant has received a copy of the EPC and GSC, check no issues with tenant/council for repairs to rental property.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/1646/pdfs/...

Thank you for all this advice - I have a meeting with the Agency tomorrow so will swot up a little tonight.

[Joe5y]

PHCorvette said:

Service of notice, if posted for example, is accepted if the postal date is the day prior to the commencement of the rent cycle. IE rent paid on 25th, stamped on the 24th. You can hand personally on the 25th and 2 months notice expires on the 2nd cycle which would be the 24th. You don't need to give 5 days lead it just helps to make sure its served.

As above this has been done and they confirmed receipt plus signed 2x copies.

PHCorvette said:

Personally I print two exact copies and get both sets signed by myself and the tenants, they get one, I keep the other.

I'd say you are covered, if the prescribed information wasn't provided then that's an agents liability but you have discovered just how useless most (not all) agents are. Fully managed is a con, you will learn the lesson for next time don't bother (though the tax deductible probably pays for it...)

Reason for going fully managed was that I negotiated them down from 11% to 6% having bought through them. Added to this I was setting up a business and just wanted to leave it up to someone else to look after. But as you say, lesson learnt here.

[Joe5y]

Thank you all once again for all help and advice.

Good news; the Dacia Sandero . . . No; I had a call this morning from the tenant saying that they are moving out today. I called the Agency to inform them and at 1330 I get the keys and I'll be going over to see what further damage has been caused.

Who would be interested in pictures?

[Joe5y]

hornetrider said:

Well what do you know, seems like the regular rent paying tennants were alright after all. And just simply human beings trying to find another place to live. Who'd a thunk it.

Regular in the sense that the reason they are being evicted is because of the damage caused?

[Joe5y]

So . . . Things didn't go quite to plan - no surprise there then!

(Want to try keeping this short but so much happened).

Check out was booked for 1230 for 1 hour so keys to be handed over at 1330.

As planned I arrived at 1330 having heard nothing ready to change the locks. Upon arrival the Inventory Clerk (IC) was stood on the doorstep having not been able to do anything owing to the amount of stuff still in the house.
The tenant was then given until 1530 to leave or he would incur a £150.00 cancellation and re-booking fee of the IC and 2x days rent at £37.89 per day. We left and returned at 1530, tenant wasn't at the address and the front door was left open (not unlocked, open!) but we didn't enter. Myself and the IC called the agency to get hold of the tenant who confirmed that "he had just gone out to pick up his wife from work". When he arrived back at 1610 there was still approximately 8x cars worth of stuff to pack up plus 3x mattresses; not to mention the untaxed, MoT'd or roadworthy car on the drive with a bottomless supply of oil leaking onto the drive, still. By this time the IC told us that he would be unable to do the checkout / inventory because of the lack of light. So, tomorrow will be the day?!!

However it doesn't end there. Tenant wants to be present with the IC upon check out - fair enough; I'd want to do the same. However, he is working tomorrow 0900 - 1900 approx 30 miles away and is doing the same shift pattern until Friday.

If only that was it.
Turns out the tenant has changed electric supplier in the time he has been there. Usually, or so I am told this is up to the landlords discretion but to be honest as long as it was with one of the big suppliers and he was getting a good deal (for him) then I'd never have an issue. HOWEVER, when he changed he has put in a meter (or maybe he was forced owing to missed payments?) . . . and it has just run out of leccy and as he has "now moved out" he isn't willing to put any money on the card. Only £190.00 to put it back to a normal arrangement.

When helping him with a mattress down the stairs I did manage to get a few pics . . . I'll put them up in 15mins when I've synced my iPhone

[Joe5y]

Model tenants . . .

These are just the few I was able to sneak a pic of.

Edited by Joe5y on Monday 25th January 20:42

[Joe5y]

[Joe5y]

Rangeroverover said:

Was nobody doing 3 monthly inspections

6 monthly inspections were being done. After each one a letter was sent to them from the agent informing them that various issues needed addressing - however I was never informed. (I didn't chase either). When I had a call from the tenant telling me that the carpet needed changing I asked the agency to send me pictures and go round etc. This is then where all the hassle of them having to improve or be evicted started.

Anyhow, they're out. Deposit being kept against damage etc. Turns out that they left a large gas bill also, they'll be chased for that. Knicked all the window keys too?!

Agency have also sent me a form to fill out for a reference . . .

[Joe5y]

I got the inventory report back today; I'll post up when I've had chance to remove sensitive data.

Amusingly the reference request for his new housing came through an hour after I received the inventory.