Lease Problems - My right of access to my property
Discussion
SP&L always seems to deliver, and I'm struggling to find answers on my own, so here goes...
I've recently bought a property in a managed estate, that has private roads and parking spaces. The management company (I assume acting under the instructions of the residents association who own the freehold) have recently started cracking down on parking and enforcing the covenants in the leases that relate to them. However they seem to have massively over-extended what they're doing.
I own a van (privately, not use for trade) which is not allowed to be parked in my space as there's a clause that says you can't park a commercial vehicle, trailer, horsebox etc on the development. I'm ok with that, even though I don't think that my van specifically is a commercial vehicle. They're now telling me that I can't even drive my van up to the front of my property to load/unload/do anything. They say that me bringing a van into the development is a breach of the covenants in my lease, and that if I load/unload at my property I've "parked" and that that is also not allowed.
The relevant clauses in the lease state:
1. That the management company has the right to create regulations as it may think fit for the preservation of the amenities and general convenience of the occupiers.
2. That the leesee has the right to pass at all times and for all purposes of access to and egress from the premises with or without vehicles over and along the accessways.
Then we have the covenants:
3. Only to park private motor vehicles in the spaces and not to park elsewhere on the development.
4. Not to park a commercial vehicle, horsebox etc etc on any part of the development.
Where does this leave me? They're saying that if I was to get a contractor/delivery/etc this is fine, and they can bring a van onto the site, but if I bring my own van onto the site for any reason I'm in breach of my lease. It seems ridiculous, and I'm pretty sure that point 2 has me covered, but before I tell them to "f
king sue me" I'd like to make sure I'm not way off base here.
I've recently bought a property in a managed estate, that has private roads and parking spaces. The management company (I assume acting under the instructions of the residents association who own the freehold) have recently started cracking down on parking and enforcing the covenants in the leases that relate to them. However they seem to have massively over-extended what they're doing.
I own a van (privately, not use for trade) which is not allowed to be parked in my space as there's a clause that says you can't park a commercial vehicle, trailer, horsebox etc on the development. I'm ok with that, even though I don't think that my van specifically is a commercial vehicle. They're now telling me that I can't even drive my van up to the front of my property to load/unload/do anything. They say that me bringing a van into the development is a breach of the covenants in my lease, and that if I load/unload at my property I've "parked" and that that is also not allowed.
The relevant clauses in the lease state:
1. That the management company has the right to create regulations as it may think fit for the preservation of the amenities and general convenience of the occupiers.
2. That the leesee has the right to pass at all times and for all purposes of access to and egress from the premises with or without vehicles over and along the accessways.
Then we have the covenants:
3. Only to park private motor vehicles in the spaces and not to park elsewhere on the development.
4. Not to park a commercial vehicle, horsebox etc etc on any part of the development.
Where does this leave me? They're saying that if I was to get a contractor/delivery/etc this is fine, and they can bring a van onto the site, but if I bring my own van onto the site for any reason I'm in breach of my lease. It seems ridiculous, and I'm pretty sure that point 2 has me covered, but before I tell them to "f
king sue me" I'd like to make sure I'm not way off base here.surveyor_101 said:
I would suggest they will struggle to enforce it legally. If it's only states parking a commercial vehicle in your space you should be able to drive up and load/unload. However since the new kid on the bloc I would suggest avoiding creating an issue. Might be worth writing to them saying you can use your van for occasional loading etc. Anyone having deliveries will need commercial vehicle access it postman, dhl etc. Point that out but state you don't intend to one regular basis and won't breach the terms by parking your van In your space. That seems reasonable to me and in keeping with the terms under which the purchase was made.
That was my initial approach, but it's been met with a firm no that's been repeated without any justification other than "you are not allowed to bring a commercial vehicle onto the site" and no desire for a discussion about what a ridiculous situation it creates, so I need to work out what my legal position is.The lease does say that parking a commercial vehicle anywhere on the estate is not allowed and they are stating that loading/unloading is parking and this does not affect my right of access with a vehicle. I disagree.
TooMany2cvs said:
BMWBen said:
I've recently bought a property in a managed estate...
...I own a van (privately, not use for trade)...
...even though I don't think that my van specifically is a commercial vehicle.
The relevant clauses in the lease state:
...
4. Not to park a commercial vehicle, horsebox etc etc on any part of the development.
Their argument is that it's the vehicle that's commercial, not the ownership/use....I own a van (privately, not use for trade)...
...even though I don't think that my van specifically is a commercial vehicle.
The relevant clauses in the lease state:
...
4. Not to park a commercial vehicle, horsebox etc etc on any part of the development.
Your argument appears to be that it's the ownership/use - which would mean everybody's company Focus or Golf would be a "commercial vehicle", while your van isn't.
And you have to admit that's a bit silly, right...?
So it does appear that you're fairly bang-to-rights on the lease...
And, yes, you are parking it - unless you're throwing the contents at an open door while it cruises slowly by?
Which begs the question why buy a property that doesn't allow you to do what you want to do? It's not like it's the only place that was for sale, right?
Let me explain:
1. I pay someone else to bring their van in and park it outside my property to collect an old washing machine and dispose of it.
2. I use my own van to do the same.
1 is apparently permitted, 2 is not.
Edited by BMWBen on Tuesday 17th May 08:51
Rick101 said:
It'll be one miserable bugger that's complained. We have one here and he's not the most popular chap on the estate.
Management companies are difficult to deal with. It's unlikely you'll be able to speak to a person with sense, you'll just get computer says no mentality.
Plenty of vans on our estate though I'm sure we have a similar covenant.
I'd get proper legal advice if it's going to be an issue. I can only think that you confirm to them it is a private vehicle and has not used in business.
Are you sure there are no other vans or signwritten vehicles on your estate, or in fact any estate run by this management company?
There is a signwritten vehicle (car) parked, which they seem to have given an exemption from this rule to as by their own definition of commercial vehicle, it is one. I would also query whether if delivering/loading counts as parking, and as a leaseholder, your agents (i.e. someone you have paid to deliver/collect or is otherwise acting under your control) are also bound by the covenants in your lease, then nobody is allowed any courier deliveries...Management companies are difficult to deal with. It's unlikely you'll be able to speak to a person with sense, you'll just get computer says no mentality.
Plenty of vans on our estate though I'm sure we have a similar covenant.
I'd get proper legal advice if it's going to be an issue. I can only think that you confirm to them it is a private vehicle and has not used in business.
Are you sure there are no other vans or signwritten vehicles on your estate, or in fact any estate run by this management company?
TooMany2cvs said:
BMWBen said:
What I don't understand is why I can't drive it up to my property to unload something, but someone else can.
Because your lease binds you. It doesn't bind a courier or a man-and-van or the bin wagon. They didn't agree to abide by the terms of any such lease - you did.Let's say the management agree it's OK for you to take your van up to the building and load it every now and then. What if your new neighbour then asks to load his every day? Or the next new neighbour decides that, since it's OK to load the van there every day, it's OK to park it in the bays for an hour or two. Or overnight.
BMWBen said:
And also how it doesn't break the right of access to my property that I have in the lease.
Because you do have the right of access. Just not in that vehicle, any more than you could in a 7.5t truck or an articulated wagon or a Harrier or a Chieftain.2. The right of access specifically says "with or without vehicles". It doesn't say "only in private cars" or, "not with a commercial vehicle". It also says for any purpose, which in this case is to "collect stuff from my property". If it's something that you couldn't collect *without* a van, then it feels very much like my right of access is being refused.
Edited by BMWBen on Tuesday 17th May 09:22
TooMany2cvs said:
BMWBen said:
There is a signwritten vehicle (car) parked, which they seem to have given an exemption from this rule to as by their own definition of commercial vehicle, it is one.
You haven't quoted how the lease defines commercial vehicle.Do you know they have exempted it, rather than simply they aren't aware of it because nobody's complained?
Edited by BMWBen on Tuesday 17th May 09:21
JQ said:
When you say "cracking down" what do you mean? Have they given any indication of what penalty you will suffer should you continue?
My basic understanding is that the penalty would be forfeiture of the lease, which no court in their right mind would permit for such a minor breach. I can't imagine there are any other options available - perhaps one of our friendly lawyers on here could confirm?
If forfeiture is the only remedy, then I'd just carry on as normal and let them send you nasty letters. IANAL, so the above may be complete bks.
They say that they'll start proceedings for breaching lease covenants, which I assume will be applying for forfeiture of the lease given that there's no monetary loss associated with it. They'll probably start adding legal fees to my service charge as well I expect.My basic understanding is that the penalty would be forfeiture of the lease, which no court in their right mind would permit for such a minor breach. I can't imagine there are any other options available - perhaps one of our friendly lawyers on here could confirm?
If forfeiture is the only remedy, then I'd just carry on as normal and let them send you nasty letters. IANAL, so the above may be complete b
ks.paintman said:
If that's the terms of the lease then it appears you're stuffed.
Common for conditions in covenants to do the same with caravans & commercial vehicles - main target is vans - on many modern estates. Equally common that many are just ignored & no-one bothers doing anything about it.
Unfortunately you've bought somewhere that does. In the absence of a successful legal challenge appears your choices are sell the property& go somewhere else that does allow commercial vehicles, buy another vehicle that you can park there or find somewhere to park the van off the estate & walk in.
Best to go & see a lawyer that specialises in this sort of thing.
You misunderstand (I think). I don't want to park in my space, I've got another car that is parked there. I just want to stop for a minute or so to load things into my van which are too large to go into my car or to carry off site to where my van is usually parked, as would apparently be perfectly acceptable if it wasn't my van but someone elses.Common for conditions in covenants to do the same with caravans & commercial vehicles - main target is vans - on many modern estates. Equally common that many are just ignored & no-one bothers doing anything about it.
Unfortunately you've bought somewhere that does. In the absence of a successful legal challenge appears your choices are sell the property& go somewhere else that does allow commercial vehicles, buy another vehicle that you can park there or find somewhere to park the van off the estate & walk in.
Best to go & see a lawyer that specialises in this sort of thing.
JQ said:
BMWBen said:
JQ said:
When you say "cracking down" what do you mean? Have they given any indication of what penalty you will suffer should you continue?
My basic understanding is that the penalty would be forfeiture of the lease, which no court in their right mind would permit for such a minor breach. I can't imagine there are any other options available - perhaps one of our friendly lawyers on here could confirm?
If forfeiture is the only remedy, then I'd just carry on as normal and let them send you nasty letters. IANAL, so the above may be complete bks.
They say that they'll start proceedings for breaching lease covenants, which I assume will be applying for forfeiture of the lease given that there's no monetary loss associated with it. They'll probably start adding legal fees to my service charge as well I expect.My basic understanding is that the penalty would be forfeiture of the lease, which no court in their right mind would permit for such a minor breach. I can't imagine there are any other options available - perhaps one of our friendly lawyers on here could confirm?
If forfeiture is the only remedy, then I'd just carry on as normal and let them send you nasty letters. IANAL, so the above may be complete b
ks.I suspect they're trying to scare you - with plenty of people I'm sure it will work.
Out of interest how many times a week are you loading and unloading, and what is it that's going in and out?
It's probably less than 3 times a week if I'm guessing high, more like 1.5 over the course of a year? I'm loading things like Windsurf boards and masts, and am also going to be renovating so will be removing old kitchen cabinets, flooring etc.
For example this weekend I was away at a sailing event, so I had to drive up to load toolboxes, kitbags, sails, and then drop them off when I returned, but the van hadn't been up to the property for over a week before then. The duration of each load/unload was less than 5 minutes.
surveyor said:
JQ said:
BMWBen said:
JQ said:
When you say "cracking down" what do you mean? Have they given any indication of what penalty you will suffer should you continue?
My basic understanding is that the penalty would be forfeiture of the lease, which no court in their right mind would permit for such a minor breach. I can't imagine there are any other options available - perhaps one of our friendly lawyers on here could confirm?
If forfeiture is the only remedy, then I'd just carry on as normal and let them send you nasty letters. IANAL, so the above may be complete bks.
They say that they'll start proceedings for breaching lease covenants, which I assume will be applying for forfeiture of the lease given that there's no monetary loss associated with it. They'll probably start adding legal fees to my service charge as well I expect.My basic understanding is that the penalty would be forfeiture of the lease, which no court in their right mind would permit for such a minor breach. I can't imagine there are any other options available - perhaps one of our friendly lawyers on here could confirm?
If forfeiture is the only remedy, then I'd just carry on as normal and let them send you nasty letters. IANAL, so the above may be complete b
ks.I suspect they're trying to scare you - with plenty of people I'm sure it will work.
Out of interest how many times a week are you loading and unloading, and what is it that's going in and out?
Jim1556 said:
I can't believe this is even an issue!
Seriously, the guy wants to load surfboards n stuff a few times a week for a few minutes at a time!
I'd be telling them to Foxtrot Oscar!
If it ever gets near legal action (which it won't), cut some holes and put perspex windows in, hey presto, camper...
I could [almost] understand if it was a Mayfair address, but even then!
fk 'em!
I may gave sent the nice lady at the management company a set of pictures containing vans and "not actually vans" (VW shuttles, ford tourneos) with blacked out windows that look exactly the same, with a threat to trade in my current one for a permitted one and start parking it on site Seriously, the guy wants to load surfboards n stuff a few times a week for a few minutes at a time!
I'd be telling them to Foxtrot Oscar!
If it ever gets near legal action (which it won't), cut some holes and put perspex windows in, hey presto, camper...
I could [almost] understand if it was a Mayfair address, but even then!
f
k 'em!
Latest update!
They've decided that dictionary.com is the legal precedent for parking, so I've pointed out that if it is that my van is not a commercial vehicle:
They've decided that dictionary.com is the legal precedent for parking, so I've pointed out that if it is that my van is not a commercial vehicle:
me said:
I was more hoping for legal precedent than your choice from dictionary.com. If you read the highway code you may note that parking and loading are treated differently, for example, you can stop on double yellow lines to load and unload but you can't park there. I would also argue that I'm not "leaving" my vehicle while loading and unloading, but loading and unloading it.
If we're going on dictionary definitions as the gold standard, then your parking regulations aren't legal or reasonable because you've changed the definition of commercial vehicle from "a vehicle used for carrying goods or fare-paying passengers" to one that is "designed" to do so and therefore changed the binding contract that is my lease.
I'm also baffled by the fact that the management company considers my activity to be unacceptable, whilst being perfectly happy to allow residents to have real commercial vehicles do exactly the same thing on site, with the only difference being that they don't directly own those vehicles. By that logic I can breach any of the clauses in my lease I fancy by contracting someone else to carry out the breach. It's a ridiculous and indefensible position.
We don't seem to be getting anywhere here, so for now I'll leave the matter like this:
I will use my right of access for occasional loading and unloading of my personal possessions from my vehicle. It shall be stationary and on the site for no more time than I need for those purposes. I consider this to be reasonable and permitted by my lease. Should the management company take any steps to forfeit my lease on grounds related to this access I will obviously resist and on success will seek to recover my legal fees from the company.
I'll see where that leaves me. I believe I also have the option to start action against them for failing to enforce the parking covenants against other leaseholders with regards to delivery vehicles, which definitely *are* commercial vehicles and are breaching the covenants on a daily basis.If we're going on dictionary definitions as the gold standard, then your parking regulations aren't legal or reasonable because you've changed the definition of commercial vehicle from "a vehicle used for carrying goods or fare-paying passengers" to one that is "designed" to do so and therefore changed the binding contract that is my lease.
I'm also baffled by the fact that the management company considers my activity to be unacceptable, whilst being perfectly happy to allow residents to have real commercial vehicles do exactly the same thing on site, with the only difference being that they don't directly own those vehicles. By that logic I can breach any of the clauses in my lease I fancy by contracting someone else to carry out the breach. It's a ridiculous and indefensible position.
We don't seem to be getting anywhere here, so for now I'll leave the matter like this:
I will use my right of access for occasional loading and unloading of my personal possessions from my vehicle. It shall be stationary and on the site for no more time than I need for those purposes. I consider this to be reasonable and permitted by my lease. Should the management company take any steps to forfeit my lease on grounds related to this access I will obviously resist and on success will seek to recover my legal fees from the company.
CGJ0 said:
BMWBen said:
I'll see where that leaves me. I believe I also have the option to start action against them for failing to enforce the parking covenants against other leaseholders with regards to delivery vehicles, which definitely *are* commercial vehicles and are breaching the covenants on a daily basis.
Good luck, sounds like you're dealing with a bunch of halfwits. I'd be on their side if you were permanently parking the vehicle up there but unloading/loading I just don't see how they can enforce that without being entirely unreasonable.Surely you just need to sign the van over to someone in your family, the vehicle is therefore no longer yours and you are notionally hiring it off them for use in renovating your property and collecting items?
Latest updates:
After a bit of to and fro the management company came back to me to tell me that "their client" (i.e. the directors of the residents company - there are three of them) was "minded to get their solicitors to write me a letter re-iterating what they have already said".
Seems like a weak attempt at intimidation to me, so I responded to let them know that this was pointless because I disagreed with the facts of their position, and requested that we engage an independent mediator to either confirm or deny that their position is a total crock of st, the outcome of which would determine my future actions. If they said that it was right and legal I would comply.
Their response to that was: We have referred this to our solicitors.
I'm pretty sure that's a bum move that should move things in my favour should they try and wack me for huge costs relating to this. Not sure what my next move is...
After a bit of to and fro the management company came back to me to tell me that "their client" (i.e. the directors of the residents company - there are three of them) was "minded to get their solicitors to write me a letter re-iterating what they have already said".
Seems like a weak attempt at intimidation to me, so I responded to let them know that this was pointless because I disagreed with the facts of their position, and requested that we engage an independent mediator to either confirm or deny that their position is a total crock of s
t, the outcome of which would determine my future actions. If they said that it was right and legal I would comply.Their response to that was: We have referred this to our solicitors.
I'm pretty sure that's a bum move that should move things in my favour should they try and wack me for huge costs relating to this. Not sure what my next move is...
surveyor said:
BMWBen said:
Latest updates:
After a bit of to and fro the management company came back to me to tell me that "their client" (i.e. the directors of the residents company - there are three of them) was "minded to get their solicitors to write me a letter re-iterating what they have already said".
Seems like a weak attempt at intimidation to me, so I responded by requesting that we engage an independent mediator to either confirm or deny that their position is a total crock of st, the outcome of which would determine my future actions. If they said that it was right and legal I would comply.
Their response to that was: We have referred this to our solicitors.
I'm pretty sure that's a bum move that should move things in my favour should they try and wack me for huge costs relating to this. Not sure what my next move is...
Ignore them....After a bit of to and fro the management company came back to me to tell me that "their client" (i.e. the directors of the residents company - there are three of them) was "minded to get their solicitors to write me a letter re-iterating what they have already said".
Seems like a weak attempt at intimidation to me, so I responded by requesting that we engage an independent mediator to either confirm or deny that their position is a total crock of s
t, the outcome of which would determine my future actions. If they said that it was right and legal I would comply.Their response to that was: We have referred this to our solicitors.
I'm pretty sure that's a bum move that should move things in my favour should they try and wack me for huge costs relating to this. Not sure what my next move is...
ETA - Do you own or rent....
If you own... then find out what you have to do to get on the board as a Director... Then you can really annoy them.
Edited by surveyor on Tuesday 31st May 10:43
We need to get enough people on-side to call a general meeting then it's up up and away!I do as it happens! I got a letter from their solicitors which threatened an injunction and all associated costs if I didn't back down. Which I responded to in kind obviously. During this period the grass roots movement from the residents gathered pace and a general meeting was called using the companies act. I'm now a director of the residents company and we're trying to sort out the way this place is run. It's a long road we've started down, parking is not the only issue and in fact is a distraction from much bigger problems...
The most important thing with regards to this thread however is that the parking scheme has been binned and is being replaced with a much more sensible one.
The most important thing with regards to this thread however is that the parking scheme has been binned and is being replaced with a much more sensible one.
V8RX7 said:
hora said:
If it looks like a commercial vehicle then it is one.
Actually it's an interesting (to me at least) point.I did fit side windows and removable seats into my van and asked the DVLA to register it as a "dual purpose vehicle" this IMO would also give me car rather than van speed limits.
They actually registered it as an "MPV" which is better IMO and checking with the LEZ I'm now exempt so I presume I also have car speed limits, however at the tip the Council database (I don't know which they use) insist it is a commercial vehicle because it was manufactured as one.
Police I've spoken to have differing ideas as to which limits apply.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff