Not signaling in designated turning lane - without due care
Discussion
Ok so caught the eye of a local beat sergeant by pulling onto a steep hill in residential area and accelerating briskly to above 30 briefly. Then I get to the top of hill and there is a mini roundabout that has left and right only turn lanes. You can't go straight on there is a wall. I stopped and stayed in left lane and went left without signaling.
The hill is steep and people often speed down it so I don't hang about getting out of the junction.
Officer was in a non emgerency focus with no blue lights but I noticed him behind he at the roundabout as he was following me way to close. He followed me past the police station so I decided to stop.i have driven like an angel since turning left. He pulled in behind and asked me what the speed limit on the road I had been on and I said 30. He was single crewed and not happy. I give him my argument for getting out of the junction fast. He then says if he writes me up for not signaling in the left hand turn lane at the roundabout where I went left its without due care and he is positive it will go to court.
Ok so he tells me the car is insured with no drivers listed? So what it's insured. He says he can now sieze the car under section 12 PACE. Not sure why. He says he will sieze dash cam and is stated not much use if I wiped the card before we stopped. He then says that preventing the course of justice, which since I don't know I am being stopped by police why would it be.
The hill is steep and people often speed down it so I don't hang about getting out of the junction.
Officer was in a non emgerency focus with no blue lights but I noticed him behind he at the roundabout as he was following me way to close. He followed me past the police station so I decided to stop.i have driven like an angel since turning left. He pulled in behind and asked me what the speed limit on the road I had been on and I said 30. He was single crewed and not happy. I give him my argument for getting out of the junction fast. He then says if he writes me up for not signaling in the left hand turn lane at the roundabout where I went left its without due care and he is positive it will go to court.
Ok so he tells me the car is insured with no drivers listed? So what it's insured. He says he can now sieze the car under section 12 PACE. Not sure why. He says he will sieze dash cam and is stated not much use if I wiped the card before we stopped. He then says that preventing the course of justice, which since I don't know I am being stopped by police why would it be.
Edited by surveyor_101 on Saturday 22 July 17:53
PurpleMoonlight said:
If you are only permitted to turn left why would you need to indicate?
He says Highway Code says u must signal when changing direction.I stated not in a designated turn lane. I said in road craft u consider turning in the information phase and I deemed the road layout dictated and positing was clear I was going left.
PF62 said:
Were you trying to wind them up, or was it a lucky accident?
Ok I appreciate he is doing his job but tailgating for a mile and then telling me off for not signaling left in a designated turn lane like it's ever going to go anywhere is just taking the pee.He did checks on me and I said your son is blah blah and goes to x school and is in the class with my daughter. He seemed to be much nicer when he realised he had to see me at school pick up.
Edited by surveyor_101 on Saturday 22 July 18:08
vonhosen said:
A speedo doesn't have to be calibrated where the margin over the limit measured by it is not small.
The signal is for the benefit of others not you. Why assume they know it's a left turn only lane because you do, particularly if they are arriving at the roundabout from a different direction to you?
Was it a mandatory left turn arrow or not (Was there wording 'TURN LEFT' under the arrow)?
There are road markings showing it's a left only.The signal is for the benefit of others not you. Why assume they know it's a left turn only lane because you do, particularly if they are arriving at the roundabout from a different direction to you?
Was it a mandatory left turn arrow or not (Was there wording 'TURN LEFT' under the arrow)?
No wording just arrow.
It that he could quote anything like that.
No started playing mr nice when I said your single crewed and we both know it your word against mine. Then your so is x and goes to this school in year one my daughters in your class. Then it's yes, ok well please do go carefully along that road: I said I thought I had seen you are school pickup and your wife is and does y. He said ok will take care we shook hands and off we went.
Last I checked a follow check was a bit longer than 500 yards.
Single crewed I would be surprised if speeding would stick. I think that was the main issue he felt I was exceeding the 30 by briskly accelerating to what would of been just above 30 prior to coming to a stop at the roundabout.
I think the signal thing was something he wished he hadn't said because when I pointed out the lanes he looked a bit dumb founded and the. Said it's still without due care if I right it up and go to court. Like it would ever get there but if policing by bulls
t is his style hey ho.
Met his type when I was 18 and I was written up for dangerous as the officer was much like this guy. Then after he did my statement he said ok dropping to due care. 2 months later said Avon somerset were dropping the whole thing due to not enough evidence. Again back in the 90s but was the same single crewed one statement rubbish. That guy was roads policing.
Single crewed I would be surprised if speeding would stick. I think that was the main issue he felt I was exceeding the 30 by briskly accelerating to what would of been just above 30 prior to coming to a stop at the roundabout.
I think the signal thing was something he wished he hadn't said because when I pointed out the lanes he looked a bit dumb founded and the. Said it's still without due care if I right it up and go to court. Like it would ever get there but if policing by bulls
t is his style hey ho.Met his type when I was 18 and I was written up for dangerous as the officer was much like this guy. Then after he did my statement he said ok dropping to due care. 2 months later said Avon somerset were dropping the whole thing due to not enough evidence. Again back in the 90s but was the same single crewed one statement rubbish. That guy was roads policing.
Evanivitch said:
Interesting that several have been told you don't need to indicate in a marked turn lane, how do other road users approaching the roundabout know this?
An example.
You approach roundabout on a 2 lane carriageway. You can go left or right at roundabout. Left in a single lane, right is 2 lanes.
Road markings on your approach indicate that left lane is right or left turn. Right lane is right turn only.
Surely those in left hand lane must indicate if going left or right? How would this be different to OPs example where he doesn't need to indicate?
Genuine question.
Same here when I learnt I was told not to signal in designated turn lanes and when I did my advanced. In his opinion it may be good practice if you like but saying the Highway Code and roadcraft say you should indicating whenever changing direction is just codswallop! An example.
You approach roundabout on a 2 lane carriageway. You can go left or right at roundabout. Left in a single lane, right is 2 lanes.
Road markings on your approach indicate that left lane is right or left turn. Right lane is right turn only.
Surely those in left hand lane must indicate if going left or right? How would this be different to OPs example where he doesn't need to indicate?
Genuine question.
People wonder why folk have no respect for the police and it this bulls
t threats doesn't help.Thinking about him now I not sure if he didn't stop me in plain clothes in a unmarked q7 outside Yeovil. Had jeans and t shirt on but stopped me on a303 and put a police highviz so technically not in uniform. He was tailgating the crap out of me so I put my foot down (thinking Avon and Somerset dont run q7s and if they do they don't drive like that)on the dual track and of course he lights me up and reads riot act for speeding and said he was busy but make a log against my Reg so if seen again etc ...
Edited by surveyor_101 on Saturday 22 July 23:41
Junction
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Galmington+Dr,...
If you look at the left hand lane the road follows to the left so very unlikely you would go right. If cars approaching the roundabout then yes but just one behind not nesexessry in my opinion.
He said fact if he writes it up it's without due care- in reality I can't see it going to court.
He also said my camera gps can be used to prove speed in court. Has that been tested?
Finally he said if I had wiped my camera memory card I am preventing the course. Again he would have to proof offence in first place which is not going to be easy.
All of this without caution I might add.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Galmington+Dr,...
If you look at the left hand lane the road follows to the left so very unlikely you would go right. If cars approaching the roundabout then yes but just one behind not nesexessry in my opinion.
He said fact if he writes it up it's without due care- in reality I can't see it going to court.
He also said my camera gps can be used to prove speed in court. Has that been tested?
Finally he said if I had wiped my camera memory card I am preventing the course. Again he would have to proof offence in first place which is not going to be easy.
All of this without caution I might add.
WolvesWill said:
When checking insurance details on a vehicle through the police national computer, on rare occasions it will not name any specific driver but will have words along the lines of 'refer to policy issuer to confirm insured parties'. More common on trade policies and the like.
Its a company car and a company policy.I am on it as I had to do annual online assessments and risk management modules.
REALIST123 said:
Not sure there are any important bits.......
To be honest, one should be indicating well before getting to the area where the lane splits and the arrows are so I think the OP was in error. That's if it actually ever happened.
Edited by REALIST123 on Monday 24th July 10:22
He stopped me in a unmarked Q7 almost 3 years ago near Yeovil. I am 95% sure its the same guy.
I think he was on an operation and just drives like a idiot. Then sees any member of the public driving above the limit and feels duty bound to stop them and read the riot act/script from the Stallone Judge Dread "I am the law, "I find you guilty". I mean with more coppers like this guy we could do away with courts and judges, instead have road side (Sergents) who decide then and there what, Guilt and punishment.
He was doing his job, (Albeit he must be on non emergency duties in a non blue like focus) but I don't appreciate this I say its wrong and it is and you are guilty attitude.
Back in july 14 on A303.
He was tailgating the hell out of me and I accelerated to above 70 to get away from him. He then stopped me in plain clothes in an umarked Q7 and had a moan, he got out in civvies and then put on a police high viz from the boot. He has been promoted since then to Sergent.
I also only twigged this after but also know him as he has a son in my daughters class at the same school. I don't think he is Taunton based having made enquiries with my police friends.
Edited by surveyor_101 on Monday 24th July 11:11
Edited by surveyor_101 on Monday 24th July 11:19
Edited by surveyor_101 on Monday 24th July 11:22
popeyewhite said:
If you knew he was behind you it might have been wise to indicate. Dot all the 'i's etc.
I didn't realise he was police till he sat on my bumper after turning right.He also wasn't even sure where I pulled onto galmington road as he thinks I came out much further down the road than I did.
I questioned then if he had the correct car.
vonhosen said:
He knows he is doing that out of the options available to him, they don't.
That's why he gives the signal to assist them as to his intentions.
That's the purpose of the signals being fitted to the vehicle, to assist others as to what your intentions are rather than leaving them guessing if you are going to go left or right. It's another little piece of the information jigsaw to assist others in their plans during your interaction. It wouldn't have harmed giving it in the situation, it would only have helped.
It's common courtesy & considerate, only it's sadly not as common as it should be.
Edited by vonhosen on Monday 24th July 19:54
The question is not is good practice or helpful to other road users, (The only car was the officer approaching from the rear there were no cars approaching the roundabout from in front of me so I choose not to signal as in my information phase I deemed no one would benefit).
I appreciate there is 'no harm' in reinforcing the intention with a traficator/Indicator. However postioned left in a left hand turn lane I would expect the police driver or any driver to have a driving plan based on what they can reasonably expect to develop. That would be in my mind a car turning left positioned in a left hand turn.
The question being debated is not should I of signal!
The question being asked is in your professional opinion as an experienced roads policing officer, is there any sensible reason for the Sarg Dread or any officer to attempt to or even suggest that it is a clear case of driving without due care and attention be not signalling!
popeyewhite said:
Hmm ok. Best just to keep schtum and accept a ticking off then, even if you thought the copper was wrong.
I know that is the best option.However I hate some officers walking round like they are judge/jury/executioner. Plus his own following distance leaves a lot to be desired, he needs educating in my opinion.
He has very little say on the charging decision or how the CPS/Police view it in the public interest. So acting like his word is gospel is far from correct. He is there to prevent crime and detect to gather evidence if there is a crime, that is it.
Not the first jumped up a&s to tell me I am guilty of an offence to find that his superiors disagree with his conduct and take no further action I can tell you.
We are trying to maintain policing by consent in this country not bullcrap and threats!
The guy's attitude changed so much when I said I knew his wife and son and my daughter was in his sons class.
Edited by surveyor_101 on Tuesday 25th July 13:14
fidzer said:
Surveyor 101 said
"Ok so caught the eye of a local beat sergeant by pulling onto a steep hill in residential area and accelerating briskly to above 30 briefly. Then I get to the top of hill and there is a mini roundabout that has left and right only turn lanes. You can't go straight on there is a wall. I stopped and stayed in left lane and went left without signaling.
The hill is steep and people often speed down it so I don't hang about getting out of the junction.
Officer was in a non emgerency focus with no blue lights but I noticed him behind he at the roundabout as he was following me way to close. He followed me past the police station so I decided to stop.i have driven like an angel since turning left. He pulled in behind and asked me what the speed limit on the road I had been on and I said 30. He was single crewed and not happy. I give him my argument for getting out of the junction fast. He then says if he writes me up for not signaling in the left hand turn lane at the roundabout where I went left its without due care and he is positive it will go to court.
Ok so he tells me the car is insured with no drivers listed? So what it's insured. He says he can now sieze the car under section 12 PACE. Not sure why. He says he will sieze dash cam and is stated not much use if I wiped the card before we stopped. He then says that preventing the course of justice, which since I don't know I am being stopped by police why would it be.
Sounds more like to me that you blatted it up the steep hill, in your own words exceeding the speed limit, and got his attention there. Harsh acceleration and excessive revving is enough to get you a section 3 careless driving charge.
You then fly out of the roundabout to the left as sometimes other drivers come down the hill too quickly, all the while the Sergeant is following you in a pool car probably thinking, "this guy's driving like a dick, i'll have a word."
He gets out of the car to speak to you when an opportunity presents itself and your busy wiping the footage from the dashcam.
When he approaches the car, most likely with the intention of giving you words of advice, you say stuff like "I know your son, what school he goes to and the class he is in. I'll be seeing you at the school gates."
Can't imagine why it all went wrong and why you feel so aggrieved.
I did blat it abit out of the junction and up the hill, reason being people drive fast down the hill. I admit thats enough to get his attention and have no issue with that."Ok so caught the eye of a local beat sergeant by pulling onto a steep hill in residential area and accelerating briskly to above 30 briefly. Then I get to the top of hill and there is a mini roundabout that has left and right only turn lanes. You can't go straight on there is a wall. I stopped and stayed in left lane and went left without signaling.
The hill is steep and people often speed down it so I don't hang about getting out of the junction.
Officer was in a non emgerency focus with no blue lights but I noticed him behind he at the roundabout as he was following me way to close. He followed me past the police station so I decided to stop.i have driven like an angel since turning left. He pulled in behind and asked me what the speed limit on the road I had been on and I said 30. He was single crewed and not happy. I give him my argument for getting out of the junction fast. He then says if he writes me up for not signaling in the left hand turn lane at the roundabout where I went left its without due care and he is positive it will go to court.
Ok so he tells me the car is insured with no drivers listed? So what it's insured. He says he can now sieze the car under section 12 PACE. Not sure why. He says he will sieze dash cam and is stated not much use if I wiped the card before we stopped. He then says that preventing the course of justice, which since I don't know I am being stopped by police why would it be.
Sounds more like to me that you blatted it up the steep hill, in your own words exceeding the speed limit, and got his attention there. Harsh acceleration and excessive revving is enough to get you a section 3 careless driving charge.
You then fly out of the roundabout to the left as sometimes other drivers come down the hill too quickly, all the while the Sergeant is following you in a pool car probably thinking, "this guy's driving like a dick, i'll have a word."
He gets out of the car to speak to you when an opportunity presents itself and your busy wiping the footage from the dashcam.
When he approaches the car, most likely with the intention of giving you words of advice, you say stuff like "I know your son, what school he goes to and the class he is in. I'll be seeing you at the school gates."
Can't imagine why it all went wrong and why you feel so aggrieved.
Edited by fidzer on Tuesday 25th July 13:24
However I stopped at the empty roundabout and make sure it was safe to proceed, I didn't blast onto it as it difficult to see if it clear until you stop and assess the situation. So no flying onto a roundabout. So I made sure it was safe before proceeding.
I didn't wipe the footage of my camera I merely suggested the officer shouldn't make any assumptions about the device being used to support his case and but if ' i wipe the date etc. He says the perverting court of justice. Again not a facts.
The son part came right after all the I will right at the end. This was after 5 minutes of chatting.
So your assuming alot there.
I pointed out he was single crewed and seemed to have made charging decisions on behalf of the CPS. I asked if he moonlighted as a Judge or JP as well. I am happy to deal with police officer who deal with facts but this I am the law and I say it so it must be true gets my goat.
Edited by surveyor_101 on Tuesday 25th July 14:57
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