tenancy complaint - mess

[superlightr]

We are a letting agents - the joys of dealing with neighbours;
A neighbour of property we look after has complained ;

" I think you'll find that it is illegal to store commercial waste. I'm not prepared to look out of my lounge and see the mess and also have commercial vans arriving and being parked overnight in full view of my house"

pic of said mess.


its a 1980's housing estate - the tenant has a transit van parked on the drive we believe. don't know if its sign written or not. Its a nice housing estate - house between £300k and £500k ish

Any views of the type of reply to give back to the neighbour? Ive already got an idea of a reply but though I would just throw this out to the PH massive.

Edited by superlightr on Monday 18th September 14:23

Edited by superlightr on Monday 18th September 14:38

[superlightr]

2nd email in from a neighbour;




To whom it may concern.


I am writing to you in reference to the continuing activity at xx Close, a property that I believe you are the letting agent for.

It would appear they are using the property for the storage of commercial/building waste & house clearance rubbish.

It is an eyesore for the residents living around the area as we have the disturbance of a white van turning up any day of the week including weekends & once the van has left there is rubbish piled up outside the garage & debris left on the ground in front of not only the garage belonging to the property but the area around the garage.

I have spoken to the planning enforcement officer at xxx, he has informed me that there has been no application to change the use of the property form domestic to commercial use to allow this activity.
I hope you will understand & resolve the situation as I believe the activity is breaching the planning regulations.

I have attached a photograph showing the waste taken this morning. (as above)

Edited by superlightr on Monday 18th September 16:13

[superlightr]

Toaster Pilot said:

So they sent the same photo again?

A couple of bricks and some tarpaulin is "house clearance waste"?!

pretty much but different angle - its 5mb which the forum wont allow -2 mb only so ive asked the neighbour to resize or retake for me. will post if he does.

a white van turns up any time of the day of the week and weekends !! well fek me. wonder how many other vans turn up and where they all go - perhaps he should monitor this? Could they be tradesmen doing work on other houses? the dareness.

the rubbish is piled up .........and then removed......how very dare they....... I'm getting the just of a reply but be grateful for the ideas of suitable reply.


to neighbour-

Thank you for your email and picture.

Im sorry but we cant open the attachment picture as its too large 5mb - max we can open is 2mb. Can you resize it or retake at lower resolution. I'm taking further advice on this matter.

Thanks
X

From: ]
Sent: 18 September 2017 15:50
To:
Subject:
To whom it may concern.

I am writing to you in reference to the continuing activity at xx, a property that I believe you are the letting agent for.

It would appear they are using the property for the storage of commercial/building waste & house clearance rubbish.

It is an eyesore for the residents living around the area as we have the disturbance of a white van turning up any day of the week including weekends & once the van has left there is rubbish piled up outside the garage & debris left on the ground in front of not only the garage belonging to the property but the area around the garage.

I have spoken to the planning enforcement officer at xx, he has informed me that there has been no application to change the use of the property form domestic to commercial use to allow this activity.
I hope you will understand & resolve the situation as I believe the activity is breaching the planning regulations.

I have attached a photograph showing the waste taken this morning.

Edited by superlightr on Monday 18th September 16:17

Edited by superlightr on Monday 18th September 16:17

Edited by superlightr on Monday 18th September 16:21

[superlightr]

Rude-boy said:

Why are you replying by e-mail?

Post. 2nd class.

If you really must reply by e-mail at least give them a few days before you reply.

The sped of your replies suggests a degree of urgency that does not exist, certainly on your side.

And how do they know that this is commercial - how do they know that the Tenant isn't building a brick BBQ on a sheet of marine ply in the back garden?

makes my day more entertaining........ yes you are correct I will slow it down a bit.

[superlightr]

ok 2nd pic in from neighbour.

are you sitting down..... prepare yourself.....























like wow........like a travellers yard.....

hang on isn't that just a zoomed in image of the 1st one? I'll ask for another.........

[superlightr]

the neighbour has resent the resized pic asking if I got the first yesterday.

I will just say Yes.


Tempted to put a Gnome next to the rubble to see what the neighbour then photos.

[superlightr]

PAULJ5555 said:

superlightr said:

the neighbour has resent the resized pic asking if I got the first yesterday.

I will just say Yes.


Tempted to put a Gnome next to the rubble to see what the neighbour then photos.

Or you could tell the tenant to have some respect for the place and to keep it tidy, if he wants to store things then he has a garage or store them round the back where they will be out of view.

sent to neighbour;

Dear Mr Y

Thank you for the re-sized picture. Is there another picture for today so we can see if anything has changed?

A van was mentioned ? Could you let us know if it stays there overnight? How many trips it makes each day/week, colour, description, reg number or other identifiable marks or signwriting?

Regards

X

Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 19th September 12:48

Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 19th September 12:49

[superlightr]

PAULJ5555 said:

superlightr said:

PAULJ5555 said:

superlightr said:

the neighbour has resent the resized pic asking if I got the first yesterday.

I will just say Yes.


Tempted to put a Gnome next to the rubble to see what the neighbour then photos.

Or you could tell the tenant to have some respect for the place and to keep it tidy, if he wants to store things then he has a garage or store them round the back where they will be out of view.

will ask him to record how many vans visit, type, colour, duration, reg number etc.

Or you could stop being a twit and help the guy, yes its only minor mess but your not the one having to look at it. The tenant is in the wrong and you know it but instead you want to wind him up.

No wonder everyone hates estate/letting agents.

please enlighten me - how is the tenant in the wrong?

Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 19th September 13:06

[superlightr]

PAULJ5555 said:

superlightr said:

PAULJ5555 said:

superlightr said:

PAULJ5555 said:

superlightr said:

the neighbour has resent the resized pic asking if I got the first yesterday.

I will just say Yes.


Tempted to put a Gnome next to the rubble to see what the neighbour then photos.

Or you could tell the tenant to have some respect for the place and to keep it tidy, if he wants to store things then he has a garage or store them round the back where they will be out of view.

will ask him to record how many vans visit, type, colour, duration, reg number etc.

Or you could stop being a twit and help the guy, yes its only minor mess but your not the one having to look at it. The tenant is in the wrong and you know it but instead you want to wind him up.

No wonder everyone hates estate/letting agents.

please enlighten me - how is the tenant in the wrong?

Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 19th September 13:06

I am assuming that in their tenancy agreement that they have to keep the place neat and tidy and also not to annoy/disturb the neighbours, so you could ask them to tidy it away and the problem is solved.

Why is the person complaining in the wrong?

Edited by PAULJ5555 on Tuesday 19th September 13:22

and if the tenant said he does not agree. Then what?

effectively you are asking us to remove a person from their home.
Evict them for a breach of the tenancy agreement s8 notice - Someone would have to stand up in court to tell a judge that the breach of the tenancy is so bad that the only course of action is to evict them.
The judge would ask for proof/evidence of this serious breach.

What evidence do you think the court would ask for?
Do you really think from the photo and description from the neighbour that this justifies court action and would actually be taken seriously in court?

Think about it for a bit. put yourself in the tenants shoes.

Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 19th September 13:34

[superlightr]

PAULJ5555 said:

JQ said:

PAULJ5555 said:

I am assuming that in their tenancy agreement that they have to keep the place neat and tidy and also not to annoy/disturb the neighbours.

Why is the person complaining in the wrong?

Do you genuinely believe that what is contained in that photo would put them in breach of an Assured Shorthold Tenancy agreement? Really?

Are you the neighbour?

No its not grounds to evict them but its something that the OP has to back up why he is asking for it to be tidied away. By doing this the neighbour is happy and the hassle for the OP hopefully stops.
I just find it strange why the OP is intent on winding up the neighbour when he can be helpful and resolve the complaint.

because the complaint is a load of bks

why should the tenant do anything, its not a mess and none of the neighbours business.

Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 19th September 13:37

[superlightr]

surveyor_101 said:

PAULJ5555 said:

I am assuming that in their tenancy agreement that they have to keep the place neat and tidy and also not to annoy/disturb the neighbours, so you could ask them to tidy it away and the problem is solved.

Why is the person complaining in the wrong?

Edited by PAULJ5555 on Tuesday 19th September 13:22

I was thinking that.

Keeping the property tidy is not unreasonable.

As for the commercial vehicle some AST's have a commercial vehicle clause so unless the tenant was clear they would have a commercial vehicle that may be a route. However parked on the drive doesn't seem unreasonable to me, some people make a living and need a commercial vehicle like sky or bt engineers why can't they rent homes.

Yes.

yes some tenants do have to make a living to pay the rent and may have a van.

The issue is:
Define commercial vehicle and then if that is a fair clause and then could be backed up in court to evict a tenant under a s8 notice. unlikely unless its a big fek off lorry/jcb or tractor.

The issue also: tidy. I would suggest it would have to be a lot more of a mess than what is shown to again secure a judge to allow a s8 notice in court to remove a tenant from a property. If it was a mess imho then yes we would try and help. buts its not in my view.

[superlightr]

PAULJ5555 said:

Have you even asked the tenant to tidy it, they may say yes no problem I didn't realise it was an eyesore to others.

Why evict them when the landlord has the right to end the tenancy in the normal way (not that they would over this), the tenant would know that there is a risk of the LL ending their tenancy in time and maybe playball.

because the neighbour wont approach the tenant direct. I don't think its an issue, if the neighbour does then he can knock himself out with contacting the tenant - but he wont. he wants to whinge to us.

The landlord does not want to give them notice.

The tenant will say I'm sure that he does not agree its a mess and the neighbour should mind his own business.

Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 19th September 13:48

[superlightr]

its a serious issue to raise any dispute with a tenant because its their home, their children's home.

I wont disturb a tenant and cause them stress or worry over a non existent issue from a neighbour who cant be bothered to talk to the tenant direct and sneaks behind their back to us and the owner and sends a few pics of nothing.

[superlightr]

TooMany2cvs said:

superlightr said:

The issue is:
Define commercial vehicle and then if that is a fair clause and then could be backed up in court to evict a tenant under a s8 notice. unlikely unless its a big fek off lorry/jcb or tractor.

Hmm. There would be O licence issues there long before tenancy ones... I don't think anybody could realistically disagree a Transit-style panel van is a "commercial vehicle", especially if signwritten.

If there's a covenant on the property being breached, then that's a different issue to if there isn't. But that's not down to a letting agent or landlord to enforce, although it might be wise to not only be aware of any covenant, but make any future potential tenants aware of it before moving in.

superlightr said:

The issue also: tidy. I would suggest it would have to be a lot more of a mess than what is shown to again secure a judge to allow a s8 notice in court to remove a tenant from a property. If it was a mess imho then yes we would try and help. buts its not in my view.

<nods>
Problem for the neighbour is that he's now undermined his own credibility if ever there's a REAL problem with that tenant.

We do have in all of our TA a 'no commercial' vehicle clause. But in reality its arguable if its actually enforceable at all as it may not be 'reasonable'/ fair ' and struck out - then you have the discussion as to what actually is a commercial.

Also a lot of trades/people will have some sort of van - they earn a living and pay the rent. Its not a serious breach of a TA and perhaps at best would be 50/50 arguable.
With the clause in the estate and title of the property again I think its arguable these days if that clause could be be struck out as unfair in court or simply not a serious enough breach even if upheld.

The owner doesn't want them to go. We are not going to do the pushing.

The estate may or may not have a said clause and as your correctly said its upto the complainant to do the running - again they are likely to face the same issues of 'reasonableness' /unfair clause and may be struck out. its arguable either way and unless it really is a JCB/lorry I would suggest not a fight worth trying.

2cvs - you know your onions - I wish more people did.

Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 19th September 14:14

[superlightr]

SantaBarbara said:

Ask the complainant to say what the five brick like objects actually are

Which borough is this in please

Is is te posh end of Bath?

Edited by SantaBarbara on Tuesday 19th September 12:32

Nr to Haywards Heath in Sussex.

[superlightr]

SantaBarbara said:

PAULJ5555 said:

Your mind seems set so no point in carrying on, just saying in this situation I would be a tad more helpful and at least try and help, maybe you get this every day so its minor to you but others its not.

Maybe it is just they don't like the wheelie bin left on the drive?

Surely nobody does anyway

the drive infront of the garage with the bin is not even the tenants property. Just for clarity as you look at the picture its the right hand garage and drive that the tenant has use of.

Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 19th September 14:18

just found out from google maps that where I think the complainer lives, his neighbour has a silver panel van parked. 2009 to 2014 time period. Renault transit type. wonder if he has complained to his direct neighbour about that van?

Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 19th September 14:51

[superlightr]

Alucidnation said:

Wow, I'm glad you don't manage my properties.

No matter how small, I want to know of any issues that need dealing with.

as per a previous posting - the owner does know as the neighbour contacted the owner as well as us. They are not interested and don't want to give notice as they also don't think its a justified issue.

so how would you deal with it?

Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 19th September 15:58

Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 19th September 15:59

[superlightr]

Vaud said:

How about a routine inspection with notice? Would be easy to see if they are running a business from there or just parking a works van.

Inspection are all very good - spotless clean and tidy inside the house. very house proud. Just a normal household things inside. Garage was empty save for some normal garage things. Last one was about 6 weeks ago.

if the neighbour can show proper evidence to back up what he is saying then so be it. But in my view he hasn't so far. I don't think he can.

hence giving the neighbour a chance to gather something better. I'm not going to be formally wasting much work time on it but happy to spend a bit of my time to brighten my day and get the PH perspective and show the pettiness of some neighbours imho..

[superlightr]

Vaud said:

superlightr said:

Vaud said:

How about a routine inspection with notice? Would be easy to see if they are running a business from there or just parking a works van.

Inspection are all very good - spotless clean and tidy inside the house. very house proud. Just a normal household things inside. Garage was empty save for some normal garage things. Last one was about 6 weeks ago.

if the neighbour can show proper evidence to back up what he is saying then so be it. But in my view he hasn't so far. I don't think he can.

hence giving the neighbour a chance to gather something better. I'm not going to be formally wasting much work time on it but happy to spend a bit of my time to brighten my day and get the PH perspective and show the pettiness of some neighbours imho..

Sounds like you have done all you need to do...

hope so but always good to get PH views.

it does annoy me when neighbours cant be bothered to talk to each other but immediate make an issue to an agent. Its the tenants home and as mentioned earlier I'm not going to cause them stress and issues to them when its really is a non issue. That's not fair.

What would they do if the tenant owned the property is always a good one to suggest.

Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 19th September 16:31

[superlightr]

TooMany2cvs said:

vsonix said:

designforlife said:

...and half the suburban semi detached houses in the UK have a sign written van parked on the drive FFS.

Absolutely this. How on earth do people expect others to actually go and earn their money? I can understand why local bylaws might proscribe storage of three or more commercial vehicles but to stop them from being parked overnight when it's presumably the person's main or only method of getting to and from work is ludicrous.

Covenants against keeping vans on new-build estates are far from uncommon.

I rather suspect that, like the "must not put any satellite dish/other erection on front of property"-type or "must not change look of front of property"-type clauses, they're there to make potential buyers of other new-builds elsewhere on the estate think it's all nice and pretty and homogenous and well-built and lovely. The theory probably goes that if a potential new-build buyer drives round a completed phase and sees a variety of vans hither and thither, they'll think there's a lot of warranty or similar work going on the houses already sold, and run away. Once the developer's finished, they CBA to enforce the covenant.

from my understanding of such covenants they can be mutually enforceable by the beneficiary's of said covenants ie the current owners of the property BUT as you said and other have said most established estates have vans for tradesmen and most people understand this is part of normal life now.

The estate is 30 odd years old and certainly the original developer isn't around. Such clause could be argued as Unfair and unenforceable anyway. Hence if it was a JCB or big lorry yes arguable but perhaps not for a normal van I would suggest. if the neighbour wants to throw money at that argument then he can. saw on google maps that there is another van next to the person who has made the complaint - my next step is to ask if he has complained about that neighbour as well and the response he got.

Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 19th September 17:17