Someone got caught speeding, might have been me.

[NickM450]

Hi all,

I'll keep this as short as I can, I work for a food delivery company and drive HGVs on multi-drop routes. There are roughly 170 drivers at the depot where I work and we all drive different vehicles on a daily basis as well as some vans. The lorries obviously have Tachographs so the driver of said vehicle at any given time can easily be found, the vans however are a different story, with no tachographs and no paperwork (at the time) to say 100% who was driving.

Today I was pulled in a manager's office and was told I had been caught speeding, they were 99% certain it was me so they have put my name forward to the authorities and I'll be hearing from them with my ticket shortly.

Two question, firstly, the offence happened on the 12/07 this year, I was under the impression that there was a time limit. Is this the case or just urban legend?

Secondly, if they are not 100% certain it was me can I still be prosecuted?

I can really not remember what I was doing 2 months ago or what vehicle I was driving. My tachograph records show I removed my card from a lorry at 12:30 that day but has no other records, the only other evidence is that I clocked out 30 minutes after the camera caught the vehicle speeding. It is quite possible it was me but also quite possible it was somebody else, where do I stand?

Thanks

[NickM450]

SantaBarbara said:

You are Innocent until Proved guilty

Well that's part of the problem, work have already provided the authorities with my name, surely that is an admition of guilt, albeit by them.

The Spruce goose said:

Have you got an andriod phone there is a tracking function on it.

Yes I have, where is that information?

SantaBarbara said:

Take it up with your Union

Work don't recognise a union, I'm not a member of any union anyway.

[NickM450]

Thanks Pica-Pica, I don't mind taking the points/fine but only if I'm the culprit. The issue I have is that they have provided my name and I'm worried this will constitute proof. But they have no records to prove that 100%.

As for the location thing, luckily or maybe unluckily, that feature has been switched off.

[NickM450]

TooMany2cvs said:

NickM450 said:

...the vans however are a different story, with no tachographs and no paperwork (at the time) to say 100% who was driving.

But plenty of other documentary evidence as to who was driving which van on what route on what day, right...?

NickM450 said:

Two question, firstly, the offence happened on the 12/07 this year, I was under the impression that there was a time limit. Is this the case or just urban legend?

It's true. The NIP has to be sent to the registered keeper within a fortnight. Who's that? Lease company?

NickM450 said:

Secondly, if they are not 100% certain it was me can I still be prosecuted?

They don't do the prosecution. They say who they believe was driving. That person then gets to admit it was them, or deny it.

NickM450 said:

I can really not remember what I was doing 2 months ago or what vehicle I was driving.

Have you asked to see the company's records of who was driving that van that day, or what you were driving? It's very simple - they have to keep reasonable records. If you need to see those records to help make your mind up, then you need to see those records. It would not be reasonable for them to prevent you. You surely sign the van/route/delivery out, you don't just grab a random set of keys to whatever's parked up, and bimble off, right?

NickM450 said:

the only other evidence is that I clocked out 30 minutes after the camera caught the vehicle speeding.

How far away from base was the camera? Is it feasible, timewise, that you'd be back, parked, sorted out, and clocking out within 30min?

The vans are indeed allocated a route, for the first runs in the morning. They have drivers names and where they are going. After they complete that run, they are parked up and anyone can use them. At the time of the incident there was no paperwork to say who takes a van after the initial route and no one signs them out or gets a manager to sign them out. Since the incident however, things have been put in place and now, if a driver remembers, the vans are signed out.

Dont know who that particular van belongs to, we have a mix of owned and rented vans but that can be easily found out. As for the time, it could certainly be done within the 30 minutes or so since the ticket was issued.

Edited by NickM450 on Wednesday 20th September 19:55

[NickM450]

xjay1337 said:

Ask to see photographic evidence if they have it.

It's on them to PROVE beyond reasonable doubt that you were driving.

The directors of the business can get in a lot of trouble if records are not being kept appropriately. Ideally every van should be signed out and back in at a given time with a unique identifier for each driver.

Apparently they don't, rear facing camera or so I was told. As for the directors/company getting in trouble, that would explain why the manager was so keen for me to admit it. At the time, we were a very new depot and no records of the vans were being kept beyond their allocated route and even now the records are very hit and miss as it's only done if a driver remembers it.

[NickM450]

The heavy goods stuff yes, without a doubt, the vans on the other hand at the time were a free for all, we only have 3 or 4 of them.

[NickM450]

I obviously recorded the additional work time on my tachograph the next time I drove a vehicle that had one fitted. Pretty sure you can't differentiate between 'driving' and 'work' when doing a manual entry, I agree though, a vehicle check sheet should have been completed. I''m starting to think it may just be easier to take this one on the chin rather than try and fight it.

[NickM450]

Cat said:

In addition to this you should be recording your driving time under GB domestic rules in a logbook it the vehicle you are using has no tacho.

Cat

Really? I've only been driving 7 years so still quite new but I've never heard of that and never been asked to do so. Mind you, I've only worked for one company and the most we've had to do is sign out non tacho vehicles, no me tion of recording driving time etc.

The place is a bit of a shambles at the moment, there were systems in place at the old depot and they now have them in place at the new one so they know they've done wrong, someone was caught the day before me.

I really don't want to take it on the chin, it could have been any of the drivers that were still on duty or even any of the warehouse staff that also take the vans out in an emergency. However, I love my job and don't want to get myself in to bother. I've been there for almost 10 years as a full time employee and can honestly see myself staying until I retire, I'm working rather hard at progressing etc. as I don't see driving being doable in another 20+ years, mainly because my body won't take it

I'll have a word with the same manager later and ask what exact evidence they have that it was me apart from just the fact that I was still working.

Edited by NickM450 on Thursday 21st September 13:32

[NickM450]

Spoke to the same manager after my shift today, he was ever so nice and apologetic yesterday when giving me the news of the ticket, he got very defensive when I questioned any evidence. As it stands the only evidence is that I was on 'other work' at the time of the incident, they can't see any other drivers that are. That does not include any managers or warehouse staff that may have used the vehicle at the time, he has now turned around and said 'it was you'.

The CCTV only records on a 30 day loop so no good there, I did briefly see the form and know the area that the vehicle was caught, it was within a section of smart motorway which again makes me think it wasn't me as I'm always hugely careful in those areas. The problem is that it very well could have been me and I honestly don't remember.

[NickM450]

Received the Notice of Intended Prosecution form today, I've read through it several times and at no point can I figure out what I am supposed to do. Here are the options:



I'll see if I can get the contact information and call them for information.

[NickM450]

Box 3 is disputing the vehicle was at the scene.

[NickM450]

SS2. said:

You are not required to complete their form.

A letter containing the information required is perfectly valid.

Really? Sorry for all the questions but I've not been in this situation before. Do I fill anything out or just send a letter with the uncompleted form included or complete 'Step1' sign the form and include a letter? What exactly do I do?

I'm even more sure it wasn't me now, here is the picture:



Me in the middle lane for no reason? I think not!

[NickM450]

SS2. said:

Yes, really.

As a person other than keeper, you have a statutory obligation under s.172 RTA 1988 to provide any information which is in your power to give and which may lead to identification of the driver.

If you write back to them and tell them everything you do know (including the tacho records which show you stopped driving the vehicle 30 minutes or so before the alleged offence), they'll probably redirect their enquiries back to the company.

If you were to be summonsed for failing to provide driver details, the Crown would need to prove that you had information which was in your power to give and that you failed to give it. By telling them everything in a letter now, and absent evidence from your employer confirming you were the driver, you should be home free.

The same might not be said for your employer.

Regarding your reply itself (which needs to be with the SCP / police not later than 28 days from when it was served), simply make a copy of the s.172 form, write 'Please see attached' across it and staple it to your letter.

I will do that, shall I still fill in Part 1 of the form, my name & address, and sign it or leave of completely blank?

Also, I stopped removed my tacho at 12:30 that day but I was still on duty at 19:00. The offence happened at 18:30. I could have been in any of the 5 or so vans we have or still in the office, that's more likely at 18:30 just before I clocked out.

[NickM450]

Already started the letter

For fear of sounding like a repeating record, what shall I do with the form? Fill in my name & address and sign it or leave it blank?

[NickM450]

Pica-Pica said:

I don't wish to be alarmist, but OP needs to ensure s/he has accurate records of conversations with boss. I think we may be going further beyond the issue of a speeding fine to constructive dismissal in the worst extreme. I recognise we are in the 'gig' economy, and fair play seems to have gone out the window.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t5...

That's is eerily similar

I'm no letter writer so any advice or recommendations are appreciated:


On the 29th of September I received a Notice of Intended Prosecution. I received this bacause my employer has named me as the driver of the vehicle involved, I have inlcuded a copy of the letter for your reference.

I do not believe I was the driver of the vehicle at the time of the offence, to back this up I have the following evidence for your information:

No vehicle check sheets for that day are available.
No vehicle sign out sheets authorised by a manager are available.
No invoices or paperwork relatng to a delivery on that day in that area that inlcude my details are available.
The vehicle is in the middle lane of a motorway with no traffic on the inside lane, I do not drive in this manor, ever.
I know this section of road very well and am very aware of the changing speed limits and always adhere to them.

In short, there is no evidence to say that I was the driver, no paperwork, no invoices and no camera footage of me. In my place of work any driver, from a pool of 150+, warehouse team, team manager or member of staff could have taken the vehicle without any signatures or paperwork being filled in, the keys are not kept in a secure place and are avalable to all. I have no reclection of being in that vehicle or on that road at the time of the offence.

Edited by NickM450 on Saturday 30th September 15:55

[NickM450]

Quite possible that the driver of the van was caught on that stretch of the M4 and be back at the depot to leave for 19:00, it would be a bit tight but possible.

The van was heading towards the depot, as for paperwork there is none to say the driver was in the area, the best my manager has is an invoice from a delivery in Oxford on the same day. We are in Bristol, however the invoice does not have a driver's signature on it or time, this is another reason my manager believe it to be me, I have been to that delivery before.

[NickM450]

Chester draws said:

Surprised no-one else has jumped on this yet.. but manner and recollection would be better.

Glad to see you standing up for yourself here OP, hope the good advice keeps coming to help you.

Sounds like the 'evidence' you have points to more that "it could have been anyone", rather than "it wasn't me". Which of these does it need to be?

FWIW, I believe you.. but feel that your company has let you (and themselves) down by not having cast iron proof of exactly who was driving each vehicle at any moment in time... For this reason I'd love to see a manager / company sec take the fall for this.

If a few spelling errors are the worst bit about my other then I'm a happy man

cmaguire said:

I haven't noticed anywhere the mention of what the limit and what the alleged speed are.

All other things aside, in a sane world I doubt any of this would even be happening.

Vehicle was clocked at 68 on a smart motorway where the limit was 60.

[NickM450]

I've slept on it again and really have no idea how to handle this situation.

If I was 100% double sure I was NOT the driver then I'd be sending the letter BUT I could have been the driver and that's the crux of the matter.

I honestly do not remember if it was me, the circumstantial evidence from my managers point of view points to me, my own circumstantial evidence says it wasn't. This and any lack of paperwork and the fact that anybody could have been driving makes me also doubt it was me.

However, I do not want to get myself sacked in the process, a bit of bother I can handle but loosing my job would be the end of me.

[NickM450]

Spoken to the resident union chap at work, no help. He says I can't come to the union with a problem, should have joined before hand.

Company isn't bothered if I have an SAC or points for that matter, I already have 3.

Union guy did say though that if it was him he'd be denying it and as there is no proof it's up to them to show evidence, he also doesn't think they would make something up.

Letter is typed and in an envelope, I hate being indecisive

[NickM450]

I have a development, after the above comment I decided to email my manager so that I would have something in writing. I simply asked if any further evidence has come to light and what the delay in receiving the NoIP was, this is the reply:

"The delay was not down to us, we just received it a few days before I spoke to you. The evidence that I have is that after looking at what everyone else did that day there is nobody else that had the "other work" to match the timing and location of the speeding fine. You are the only person that it could have been through a process of elimination. I had a further search after I spoke to you just to satisfy myself it couldn't have been anyone else and am now of the opinion it was definitely you. I had already excluded the agency and warehouse possibilities so then tracked evry driver through Smartanalysis and nearly every driver bar a handful could be eliminated either through their finish time for the day or the fact they were driving a tacho vehicle.

Without a tacho on this type of vehicle or with the lack of any cctv footage it's never 100% but I think if you are honest with yourself you will accept it was you and won't try to wriggle out on a technicality!! I'm happy it's beyond any reasonable doubt."


So there we have it, I'm simply trying to wriggle out of it and it is definitely me, even though he says that there were a handful of drivers that it could have been.

Edited by NickM450 on Tuesday 3rd October 13:58