Rejecting used main dealer car post 30 days. Anyone done it?
Discussion
I know how these threads go, I'm aware of the mistakes I made which will be pointed out here. But I'm gonna start it anyway!
Basic facts are:
Purchased used approved Mazda 3 2l sport from main dealer 250 miles from me as it was only one I could find. £6k. 62k miles 61 plate. SG61 TZZ.
Did as many checks as I could. Presumed that using main Mazda dealer would ensure that any issues could be resolved locally.
Car arrived with warped brakes, off centre steering wheel, clonk and developed drive shaft oil leak after 5 days. All reported to dealer at 5 days.
Agreed with salesman to book it into local mazda dealer for vehicle health check. 2 weeks delay on that.
Health check returns confirmation of issues at ~£1k Inc vat retail price, and reports to seller and myself.
Seller agrees to sort everything using the 12 month Mazda warranty.
Unsurprisingly the warranty only covered the lower arm. Not brakes or driveshaft oil seal.
Backwards and forwards to salesman. Warranty only. Rest not their problem.
Pushed up to service manager. Bring car back so we can look at it as my local dealer might be trying it on. 500 mile round trip not happening so offered to take it to a different local dealer under proviso that results are fixed. No Deal but offers 500 towards work.
Rejected as won't cover cost to fix.
Meanwhile I start looking at service history.
Pre sales checklist says no service due within 2months or 2k miles. Mazda recommendations state 62000 or 72 months whichever is soonest. 72 months was Sept 2017.....
More back and forwards asking why approved Mazda is sent out without up to date service being carried out. No joy and won't pay for it to be done.
Start to get Mazda UK involved to find out exactly what buying an approved Mazda gives me. Turns out this is not really very clear and they can't do much.
Final insult is when service manager sends job log which lists the not insignificant detail that they changed the engine 10 miles before I bought it. Not a new engine btw. Just some random one.
So I move to reject. My basis for rejection is as follows:
I didn’t reject the car within the first 30 days as:
I had already informed seller of the issues and presumed that as a Mazda dealer, they would fix the issues.
There was a 2 week delay waiting for investigations @ local Mazda..
I am now rejecting the car as:
Multiple serious issues were present at the time of sale and inexplicable not fixed prior to delivery.
Despite giving seller multiple chances (and time) to resolve the issues, they have refused to fix the issues & carry out the service.
The lack of appropriate servicing (according to manufacturer’s recommendations) and the replacement engine have negatively affected the warranty status of the car and its value.
That's it. Car is not being used and I have placed a deposit on a Honda civic from Arnold Clark.
Bring on the wisdom of Ph!!!
Basic facts are:
Purchased used approved Mazda 3 2l sport from main dealer 250 miles from me as it was only one I could find. £6k. 62k miles 61 plate. SG61 TZZ.
Did as many checks as I could. Presumed that using main Mazda dealer would ensure that any issues could be resolved locally.
Car arrived with warped brakes, off centre steering wheel, clonk and developed drive shaft oil leak after 5 days. All reported to dealer at 5 days.
Agreed with salesman to book it into local mazda dealer for vehicle health check. 2 weeks delay on that.
Health check returns confirmation of issues at ~£1k Inc vat retail price, and reports to seller and myself.
Seller agrees to sort everything using the 12 month Mazda warranty.
Unsurprisingly the warranty only covered the lower arm. Not brakes or driveshaft oil seal.
Backwards and forwards to salesman. Warranty only. Rest not their problem.
Pushed up to service manager. Bring car back so we can look at it as my local dealer might be trying it on. 500 mile round trip not happening so offered to take it to a different local dealer under proviso that results are fixed. No Deal but offers 500 towards work.
Rejected as won't cover cost to fix.
Meanwhile I start looking at service history.
Pre sales checklist says no service due within 2months or 2k miles. Mazda recommendations state 62000 or 72 months whichever is soonest. 72 months was Sept 2017.....
More back and forwards asking why approved Mazda is sent out without up to date service being carried out. No joy and won't pay for it to be done.
Start to get Mazda UK involved to find out exactly what buying an approved Mazda gives me. Turns out this is not really very clear and they can't do much.
Final insult is when service manager sends job log which lists the not insignificant detail that they changed the engine 10 miles before I bought it. Not a new engine btw. Just some random one.
So I move to reject. My basis for rejection is as follows:
I didn’t reject the car within the first 30 days as:
I had already informed seller of the issues and presumed that as a Mazda dealer, they would fix the issues.
There was a 2 week delay waiting for investigations @ local Mazda..
I am now rejecting the car as:
Multiple serious issues were present at the time of sale and inexplicable not fixed prior to delivery.
Despite giving seller multiple chances (and time) to resolve the issues, they have refused to fix the issues & carry out the service.
The lack of appropriate servicing (according to manufacturer’s recommendations) and the replacement engine have negatively affected the warranty status of the car and its value.
That's it. Car is not being used and I have placed a deposit on a Honda civic from Arnold Clark.
Bring on the wisdom of Ph!!!
Edited by Chimune on Wednesday 18th July 18:11
Sorry no name, I wrote that all on phone on train so saved several times to ensure I didn't loose it.
I don't know anything about the engine. I haven't found the engine number yet to check against v5. Dealer said he had lost the v5 so would get it sent up. He did this but I guess we now know why.... There is non mention of the word reconditioned anywhere.
I have a case open with The Motor Ombudsman who all Mazda dealers are signatories to.
Thanks for the moneyclaim site - never heard of them.
I don't know anything about the engine. I haven't found the engine number yet to check against v5. Dealer said he had lost the v5 so would get it sent up. He did this but I guess we now know why.... There is non mention of the word reconditioned anywhere.
I have a case open with The Motor Ombudsman who all Mazda dealers are signatories to.
Thanks for the moneyclaim site - never heard of them.
Wow, yes it's becoming clear that 'approved' means absolutely sod all.
As does any benefits of a dealer 'network'. If your local one is good then cool, but no one should be under the illusion that head office will help in any way.
I just sent the official notification by recorded delivery. Will update thread with any news....
As does any benefits of a dealer 'network'. If your local one is good then cool, but no one should be under the illusion that head office will help in any way.
I just sent the official notification by recorded delivery. Will update thread with any news....
Sheepshanks said:
Chimune said:
The lesson I've learnt here is:
If you buy at a distance and there are more than a couple hundred quid worth of issues - reject it straight away. The dealer may string you along past the 30 days then wash his hands.
The clock stops once you make a complaint.If you buy at a distance and there are more than a couple hundred quid worth of issues - reject it straight away. The dealer may string you along past the 30 days then wash his hands.
What constitutes a complaint? A rejection?
Thanks for all the extra info. Looks like I'm gonna need it....
Update :
MD arrived back off his hols after reviewing my 'note' he could offer me 1000 to sort it out.
He stated that he didn't want an unhappy customer.
As he had somehow misunderstood the nature of the letter - which is a list of facts, a statement of rejection and 5 reasons why the car was being rejected, I pointed out that the time for further discussions had now passed.
I also said that he already had an unhappy customer and the only remedy for this was to come and get the car without delay. If he failed to do this my only option would be to take him to court.
He took umbrage at this saying I'd threatened him (poor poppet), he thought I was wrong on some of my legal positions and that he would be handing the case over to his legal team.
I replied saying he had left me with no choice and I only need one of my legal positions to be accepted by a court.
So there we go.
He has 7 days to send me his rejection procedure and details of refund and collection. Or we are off to court.
The Motor Ombudsman hasn't got back to me at all yet, so I guess that might be able to save the process.
In the meantime it looks like I might need some professional advice. Im not sure I know what to do if Ombudsman fails!!
Would a court case be to force him to accept the car back? Or to get the money back? Or something else?
Is court the same as the moneyclaim site mentioned previously?
Update :
MD arrived back off his hols after reviewing my 'note' he could offer me 1000 to sort it out.
He stated that he didn't want an unhappy customer.
As he had somehow misunderstood the nature of the letter - which is a list of facts, a statement of rejection and 5 reasons why the car was being rejected, I pointed out that the time for further discussions had now passed.
I also said that he already had an unhappy customer and the only remedy for this was to come and get the car without delay. If he failed to do this my only option would be to take him to court.
He took umbrage at this saying I'd threatened him (poor poppet), he thought I was wrong on some of my legal positions and that he would be handing the case over to his legal team.
I replied saying he had left me with no choice and I only need one of my legal positions to be accepted by a court.
So there we go.
He has 7 days to send me his rejection procedure and details of refund and collection. Or we are off to court.
The Motor Ombudsman hasn't got back to me at all yet, so I guess that might be able to save the process.
In the meantime it looks like I might need some professional advice. Im not sure I know what to do if Ombudsman fails!!
Would a court case be to force him to accept the car back? Or to get the money back? Or something else?
Is court the same as the moneyclaim site mentioned previously?
Edited by Chimune on Friday 27th July 08:06
Trevor555 said:
You need to get some proper advice.
But my understanding to get a full refund is :-
1. It has to be miss described.
2. They with held information that may have altered your decision about buying the car (used engine recently fitted)
3. A fault within 30 days of ownership.
To aid your case you'll use the "not in a condition expected of an approved used car from a main dealer" but that bit is probably not an absolute reason for rejection. As already said, it's just manufacturers blurb to give peace of mind.
If it was me I'd lean heavily on point number 2.
"If you'd have mentioned you'd just fitted a used engine I wouldn't have bought it"
These are only my suggestions, please get some proper legal advice.
I'll post the reasons I stated in my rejection letter later.But my understanding to get a full refund is :-
1. It has to be miss described.
2. They with held information that may have altered your decision about buying the car (used engine recently fitted)
3. A fault within 30 days of ownership.
To aid your case you'll use the "not in a condition expected of an approved used car from a main dealer" but that bit is probably not an absolute reason for rejection. As already said, it's just manufacturers blurb to give peace of mind.
If it was me I'd lean heavily on point number 2.
"If you'd have mentioned you'd just fitted a used engine I wouldn't have bought it"
These are only my suggestions, please get some proper legal advice.
By eventually offering £1000 he will probably argue that he is clearing 1 and 3 (fsh and faults). Its what I asked for over a month ago and I'd have accepted it and been happy at the time.
The ultimate irony is that in trying to wriggle out of that, his service manager inadvertently gave me the info about the replacement engine.
That really pissed me off, and I don't see how he can get out of that (2).
@hutchst
The service manager sent me a scan of the job log of everything done to the car in order by them, to demonstrate that the pre sales check was completed.
On this log it's states the mileage (10 miles or so before I purchased) with two lines:
'Investigate rough running' £0
'replacement engine': £2100.
Another scan is an email from the sales guy with 'engine replaced' written on it in pen.
The service manager sent me a scan of the job log of everything done to the car in order by them, to demonstrate that the pre sales check was completed.
On this log it's states the mileage (10 miles or so before I purchased) with two lines:
'Investigate rough running' £0
'replacement engine': £2100.
Another scan is an email from the sales guy with 'engine replaced' written on it in pen.
Copy paste from my letter of rejection:
Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 goods you supply must be of ‘Satisfactory Quality’, ‘Fit For Purpose’ & ‘As Described’.
I am now formally rejecting the car, and requesting that you give me a full refund including road tax.
My grounds for rejecting are:
Multiple serious issues were present at the time of sale and inexplicably not fixed prior to delivery. The car is not of ‘Satisfactory Quality’.
Despite giving xxxx multiple opportunities (and time) to resolve the issues, they have failed to propose a plan to resolve those issues, that does not cost me substantial time and money. Further inspections of the car 250 miles away at xxxcxc – with no guarantee of resolution, would cause me ‘significant cost and inconvenience’.
The lack of appropriate servicing (according to manufacturer’s recommendations) will negatively affect the warranty status of the car and its value. The car was ‘not as described’ as per the Mazda Approved Car Scheme.
The replacement engine is of unknown parentage, rendering the mileage on the car invalid, and negatively affecting the value of the car. Resolving this via ‘repair or replacement is impossible’.
The replacement engine, although fitted by xxxcxc only a few weeks prior to sale, was not disclosed to me. I would not have bought the car had this information been disclosed. The car was ‘not as described’ in the advertising.
Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 goods you supply must be of ‘Satisfactory Quality’, ‘Fit For Purpose’ & ‘As Described’.
I am now formally rejecting the car, and requesting that you give me a full refund including road tax.
My grounds for rejecting are:
Multiple serious issues were present at the time of sale and inexplicably not fixed prior to delivery. The car is not of ‘Satisfactory Quality’.
Despite giving xxxx multiple opportunities (and time) to resolve the issues, they have failed to propose a plan to resolve those issues, that does not cost me substantial time and money. Further inspections of the car 250 miles away at xxxcxc – with no guarantee of resolution, would cause me ‘significant cost and inconvenience’.
The lack of appropriate servicing (according to manufacturer’s recommendations) will negatively affect the warranty status of the car and its value. The car was ‘not as described’ as per the Mazda Approved Car Scheme.
The replacement engine is of unknown parentage, rendering the mileage on the car invalid, and negatively affecting the value of the car. Resolving this via ‘repair or replacement is impossible’.
The replacement engine, although fitted by xxxcxc only a few weeks prior to sale, was not disclosed to me. I would not have bought the car had this information been disclosed. The car was ‘not as described’ in the advertising.
Edited by Chimune on Saturday 28th July 13:31
Thanks for all your support.
The way I see it is had the engine been replaced:
.....with a new (or reconditioned one) that was documented in the cars history and with written confirmation of the warranty status of the engine.
Or
....the engine was replaced prior to the dealer receiving it,
Then the dealer has complied with their minimum obligations and the v5 is just an admin oversight.
In this case, the dealer did not disclose to me that THEY had changed the engine just a few weeks before I got it. The v5 not matching is now evidence of this deception.
Will the dvla to tell me what info they have recorded for this engine?
It may be stolen for all I know....
The way I see it is had the engine been replaced:
.....with a new (or reconditioned one) that was documented in the cars history and with written confirmation of the warranty status of the engine.
Or
....the engine was replaced prior to the dealer receiving it,
Then the dealer has complied with their minimum obligations and the v5 is just an admin oversight.
In this case, the dealer did not disclose to me that THEY had changed the engine just a few weeks before I got it. The v5 not matching is now evidence of this deception.
Will the dvla to tell me what info they have recorded for this engine?
It may be stolen for all I know....
Update:
Dvla can't search for engine codes.
Local dealer can't either, but confirmed that Mazda won't put a reconditioned engine in. It would only be a new one with the same number, plus documentation showing the process on the service record.
Mazda warranty confirmed that they can't search and it's up to me to get the history of the engine from the dealer. Only then would they be able to answer the question 'is my warranty currently valid?'. Advised I speak to Mazda UK again and inform them as they CAN search on engine codes.
Dvla can't search for engine codes.
Local dealer can't either, but confirmed that Mazda won't put a reconditioned engine in. It would only be a new one with the same number, plus documentation showing the process on the service record.
Mazda warranty confirmed that they can't search and it's up to me to get the history of the engine from the dealer. Only then would they be able to answer the question 'is my warranty currently valid?'. Advised I speak to Mazda UK again and inform them as they CAN search on engine codes.
Dan W. said:
Trevor555 said:
Dan W. said:
Just being curious, would you have bought the car if you had been told it had been given a new engine ?
A very valid question Dan.It it was me I'd say yes if they'd been upfront about it, explained the engine number would be different, shown me history/evidence of the previous engine, and serviced the engine. rather than saying to the OP the car wasn't due for a service.
Instead they've chosen not to be upfront about the engine change, provided no evidence of the mileage of that engine, and worse bit it sounds like they've not serviced the car.
Update: spoke to original supplier of car and git the original engine # which matches the one in the v5.
Rang Mazda warranty who could not confirm the warranty was valid without knowing the history of the replacement engine - which I would need to get from dealer!
Rang Mazda UK again and told them in no uncertain terms that they had a major problem if their dealers were selling approved cars with mazda warranties that were invalid due to non traceable engines being used and hidden from customers.
Gave them both the original number and the one now in the car and they said they would speak to dealer and see what they could find our about the engine.
Reminded them that I am rejecting car (unless engine turns out to be new, which it isn't).
Get call today from Mazda UK and they can't find out anything about the replacement engine.
They have spoken to dealer who can't tell them anything about the engine either.
However, there is a letter in the post heading my way with a resolution 'which I should like'.
Seeing as there is only one solution I will like, let's hope it's settled...
Rang Mazda warranty who could not confirm the warranty was valid without knowing the history of the replacement engine - which I would need to get from dealer!
Rang Mazda UK again and told them in no uncertain terms that they had a major problem if their dealers were selling approved cars with mazda warranties that were invalid due to non traceable engines being used and hidden from customers.
Gave them both the original number and the one now in the car and they said they would speak to dealer and see what they could find our about the engine.
Reminded them that I am rejecting car (unless engine turns out to be new, which it isn't).
Get call today from Mazda UK and they can't find out anything about the replacement engine.
They have spoken to dealer who can't tell them anything about the engine either.
However, there is a letter in the post heading my way with a resolution 'which I should like'.
Seeing as there is only one solution I will like, let's hope it's settled...
Letter arrived from dealers lawyer:
He offers full refund. However, this is as goodwill (not acceptance of rejection), this means he expects muggins here to arrange and pay for the car to be returned. Law says he must pay for collection of vehicle if it's rejected.
Why go all the way to resolve the case and not just arrange collection? Will cost him 220 notes to sort. A load more back and forth by me to his lawyer will cost him more than that.
I can only presume that he thinks his dealership have done a grand job and I am just some irrational customer.
Weird. Anyway I think I still need some professional advice.
He offers full refund. However, this is as goodwill (not acceptance of rejection), this means he expects muggins here to arrange and pay for the car to be returned. Law says he must pay for collection of vehicle if it's rejected.
Why go all the way to resolve the case and not just arrange collection? Will cost him 220 notes to sort. A load more back and forth by me to his lawyer will cost him more than that.
I can only presume that he thinks his dealership have done a grand job and I am just some irrational customer.
Weird. Anyway I think I still need some professional advice.
Thanks to all advise and support on this. Just wanted to update and say that after far too much grief, the dealer gave me my money back.
He wriggled at every step so I can only presume he is a sociopath or truly believes I am being unreasonable on some level.
Anyway I didnt push for any out of pocket costs. I'm about to start the Money Claim Online process for that.
I got some ace free advice from a specialist lawyer at Stormcatcher. Recommended if you ever find yourself in a bind with a dealer!
I'll not name the dealer but unless you like a Bodge job Mazda and are in Bucks, I'd steer clear.
He wriggled at every step so I can only presume he is a sociopath or truly believes I am being unreasonable on some level.
Anyway I didnt push for any out of pocket costs. I'm about to start the Money Claim Online process for that.
I got some ace free advice from a specialist lawyer at Stormcatcher. Recommended if you ever find yourself in a bind with a dealer!
I'll not name the dealer but unless you like a Bodge job Mazda and are in Bucks, I'd steer clear.
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