Smart motorway penalty

[Metallfan]

Hi all,

I was driving on M25, smart motorway just before Dartford tunnel crossing. The two right lanes showed as closed for most of the approach, but the last 'smart signals' before the tunnel showed a speed limit instead of the red X, which made it look as though the lines have just opened. As I switched lanes the speed limits turned to red X again, but I did not have enough time to react anymore as within 2 seconds of them changing I had hard shoulder on my left. I stopped before the tunnel and had to get rescued by the traffic officers. I have a dashcam recording showing that there was no red X as I switched lanes and that the signal changed once it wasn't safe for me anymore to change the lanes. Do I have a case to challenge the fine?

I've posted this question partially because I want to make sure that my understanding of how these motorwaysork is correct. If there is a speed limit displayed oner a lane, that surely means that the lane is open, or would there be any scenario where there is a speed limit displayed over a closed lane? And how much time for a reaction should I get once the signals change? If the signals before showed lane closures and I only switched lanes at the signals which showed speed limit instead of a big red X was I in the right to do so? To be fair a car before me did exactly the same thing and we both got stuck but I don't think he had a dashcam.
I did not get a fine yet, but the traffic officer who rescued me (and was very unprofessional while at it, but that's a separate issue) said I will be getting points so I assume the ticket will be on its way to me by now.
Also, any idea what fine/points can I expect? I read that of you take a pendlty like that to a court and they don't rule in your favour you can end up paying more than the initial fine?

[Metallfan]

Thank you, I've already done that.

[Metallfan]

IanCress said:

I can't quite understand from your description what happened to prevent you from pulling left. Were the lanes coned off? Either way, if you've followed the directions given by the overhead gantry then I don't think you've done anything wrong.

However, if you admit that you did see the red X and the dashcam footage shows that you did have time to react but chose not to, it will not go in your favour.

Hi Ian,

When the signal turned to red X within the next 2-3 seconds I already had a hard shoulder on my left - the 4 lanes became divided into 2 sets of 2 with a hard shoulder in the middle.

[Metallfan]

this shows the approach with the right lanes closed and shows that I was in the right lane

[Metallfan]

this is my approach showing all 4 lanes open (I appreciate its not great quality but you can see the signs are NOT red X's

[Metallfan]

and this is the exact point when the signals turned red again, as you can see, I'm just about to enter hard-shoulder territory

[Metallfan]

if ive done something wrong I'm happy to be educated, I'm not here for confirmation bias, but I'm pretty sure I was following the right code and didn't have sufficient time to react without slamming on my breaks or steering right into the traffic to my left. Any thoughts?

[Metallfan]

Dr Interceptor said:

What did the car in front do at this point?

Followed through. we both got stuck there.

[Metallfan]

T5R+ said:

Education on these new systems is abysmal.

Have been driving on these types of roads what feels like decades. Always use a simple approach

1. if lane shows a "red x" then not to be in it
2. if a lane shows a posted limit, then okay to be in it and at that limit
3. if a lane has a blank board/matrix but adjacent shows a posted limit, then do not exceed the adjacent posted limit

By the way, I am that saddo in the nearside/hard shoulder lane when it is a live lane.

OP, as you describe it, think it would be wrong for you to get ticketed/points/fined........the dashcam may be your saviour here. Sure that there is a grace period between signs changing and enforcement.......your challenge here could be that it was "X" for a long period, then a live lane for a very short stint (when you "rightly" occupied) and then reverted to "X" again but the preset timings work against you?

This is my thoughts exactly, but when I looked up how much a legal representation would be if I were to challenge this in court, I may be better off just taking it on the chin. What fine/points do you think I'd be looking at here, would they class it as 'dangerous driving'?

Also, could you please explain what do you mean by 'but the preset timings work against you'?

I've already lost night's sleep over it

Thanks

[Metallfan]

coldel said:

I think you have a case, and surely there is no cost to writing to the agency and stating exactly what happened stating you have video capture footage which you can share. So to be clear, you passed under the gantry showing a speed limit and you didnt see it change, or did it change as you passed under it? Does your cam footage show you passing completely under the gantry with it still as a speed limit?

Thanks for this!
Which agency would be the right point of contact for this? Traffick Officers fall under police I think? Or would this be England Highways? Or another agency I'm not aware of?
The last capture is exact point when the lights changed, so I was already in that lane. Also, as someone above pointed out - there MUST be some sort of grace period for when the lane closes, right?

[Metallfan]

TooMany2cvs said:

Can you show the full frame for these three, showing the timestamps?

Looks very much as if the limit was a very temporary blip, and the two of you thought "woo-hoo", went for it, only to be caught out as it changed back within a second or three.

That last frame, given that you've only just changed from L2 to L3, you could easily have braked and dipped back left. What limit was showing? It's a 50, even before any reduction, isn't it?

Just to clarify, the first image is from a different signal point, I just included it to show what this looks like, the signal point in question though, I have never seen go from red to speed limit, it was showing just the speed limit from when I saw it, so must have been a blip of more than a few seconds.
This is time stamp from when I first saw the signals, and as small as it is on this image, you can see its not a red X it's a speed limit (40)

[Metallfan]

and this is when it changed. Around 15 seconds at least, and as i said, it did not show red to me at all in first place,

[Metallfan]

coldel said:

The grace period is a bit of a myth, some say its true, some not, some say you get two signs grace some say 2 seconds.

If you saw that sign changed to a X whilst it was what it looks like, around 30-40 metres down the road and in full view, how comes you changed into that lane anyway? Or at least not attempt to stay left? Just playing devils advocate as I would imagine anyone you complain to would ask the same thing? Please do correct me if I misunderstood!

It's a fair question - when the lights changed I was already in that lane, the manoeuvre was completed. Also, the Gantry is bit further up than the last 'point of return' would have been, the distance from the signs is not representative of where the decision had to be made.

[Metallfan]

T5R+ said:

Cannot ever definitely remember seeing the duration of grace-period when the sign is illuminated/changes - many think that it is 10seconds.

Think about it - if you are virtually at a gantry and it illuminates at say 60 and you travelling at say 80 - do you stamp on the brakes. Think of the consequences and multiple pile ups. Thus, suspect that a grace period surely exists.

In your case - it went from "X" to "Posted Limit" to "X". Suspect that you entered when a live lane (so all good) but "got stuck" when reverted to "X" and so must have been there a lot longer than our mythical 10second grace period. Make sure that you do overwrite the dashcam, Do not just accept the points and fines.

On a sidenote I see a lot of inconsistencies on the managed motorways regularly. Humans in the control rooms can make mistakes leading to errors.

Have nothing to do with the HA - simply another smuck who covers 30K/annum across our motorway networks.

Really obvious that some people have zero idea over managed motorway driving - given the number of posts on PH and poor advice/direction given by some posters.

Just to clarify, this particular signal was never red since I first saw it. It's a previous signal that was red. So it's not like I saw red, than speed limit and just change lanes at that point.

[Metallfan]

coldel said:

Quite a sensible point, that you cannot just switch all to Red Xs there is an expectation that you move over as you see them and stay left. I guess the issue here could be that you do not move back to the right until you pass the gantry? You passed a red X, saw in the distance a speed limit sign so moved over well before passing the gantry. They could argue that you stay out the closed lane until you pass a gantry that says otherwise? Again devils advocate but that could come back against any contesting? Mind you, it might be nothing happens, did the guys that escorted you tell you that you would get a ticket?

He said 'sorry isn't good enough you'll get points for that'

[Metallfan]

jfire said:

Exactly. You can't apply the sign to traffic in front AND behind it and mitigate that trap with an inadequate grace period.

PH members seem to have no sympathy for others who have been unable to slow down in time when limits have changed, which is fair under perfect conditions, but newly closed lanes are a different scenario.

https://youtu.be/4RZrIqM-t5w

here's the video.

[Metallfan]

Thanks for all the input guys. I never have claimed or will claim that this was the best decision I've ever made on the road. I've been driving for about 10 years now with a total of 1 speeding ticket about 5 years ago, so it's not like I make a habit of weird decisions. The more I watch this the more sure I am that the decision to switch lanes was silly,but this is from the comfort of my own sofa now not having to make quick decisions.
As for when I stopped and why, I saw the sign change, but another set of green lights ahead. I stopped when I saw the last sign Bofors the tunnel which showed both lanes closed. It was a very confusing situation, and one I already lost sleep over. It wasn't helped by the traffic officer saying things like 'you're not very well educated', 'it was stupid' etc. No, it wasn't a good decision and I know that now, but surely at the moment when it was made it wasn't illegal.

[Metallfan]

imdeman87 said:

Quite simple really, surely?

I blame the lovely Google Maps lady - 'take the right 2 lanes'.

OP, if you do get a penalty then take it on the chin and move on.

This is my intention.

[Metallfan]

BiggestVern said:

Sorry, just seen this, are you sure you are going to get a penalty? Most people actually caught going under a red 'x' have had a warning letter and no more unless there was some other factors involved.

From your description I can't quite see how the gantries went from a speed setting to a red 'x' in one jump, they are designed to count down speeds then show a lane divert before the red 'x' appears. Your dashcam footage should be enough to counter any problems.

You said that the two right hand lanes had been showing res 'x's then the next gantry showed speeds, this should not happen, I wonder if you crossed from gantries set by Eastern Region into gantries set by DRC and someone was a bit late with the settings.

Obviously I'm not allowed to comment officially for Highways England but a letter or a call to the Customer Contact Centre In Birmingham may be worth while if you are worried about the outcome.

Thanks for the input. I have already emailed Highway England. Also was told that I'd get points by a very rude traffic officer who attended to me.

And yes, the video shows it all.

[Metallfan]

If anyone's interested with he follow-up to my story - here is a reply I got from England Highways (also, it's been almost 2 weeks now and I got no ticket in the mail):

Thank you for contacting the Highways England Customer Contract Centre regarding your journey dated the 18th September 2018 at Dartford Crossing.



You asked why the signs leading up to the tunnels were showing the two right hand lanes as being closed and then the last signal as showing the lanes to be open with a speed limit over them – Lanes 3-4 were closed for a full closure of the East tunnel due to roadworks.

The gantries you passed under with the lane closures on are set by Highways England control room staff but the last gantry that had the speeds on it is owned by Connect Plus Services and they were in the process of setting this to lane closures when you passed underneath it, the signal was counting down with speeds first and then finally sets the lane closures.



With regards to you receiving a penalty, if you didn’t see any of the cameras flash or if the gantry still had speeds on it when you passed underneath it then it should be all clear.