Is this parking charge considered excessive?
Discussion
I was on holiday in the UK 2 weeks ago, parked briefly in an empty harbour side carpark in a quiet area. Didn't spot any signs or pay machines and assumed it was free. It was late afternoon and after dusk.
Ive come home today to a parking charge notice from a company called Civil Enforcement Ltd in Liverpool.
It is £100 or £60 if paid within 14 days. The notice is dated 7th December so I would have until 21st to pay it.
Fair enough, I've not paid to park as I missed the signs, probably because I am not familiar with the area, and explains why the car park might have been quiet. I would expect to pay £30 and be done with it.
Would you consider this an excessive fine and is there any change at negotiating with the parking company?
Having looked up the car park on google, the long list of reviews tell me that this is a common occurrence recently as the car park was only taken over by this firm at the beginning of the year so has stung holiday makers and locals.
Ive come home today to a parking charge notice from a company called Civil Enforcement Ltd in Liverpool.
It is £100 or £60 if paid within 14 days. The notice is dated 7th December so I would have until 21st to pay it.
Fair enough, I've not paid to park as I missed the signs, probably because I am not familiar with the area, and explains why the car park might have been quiet. I would expect to pay £30 and be done with it.
Would you consider this an excessive fine and is there any change at negotiating with the parking company?
Having looked up the car park on google, the long list of reviews tell me that this is a common occurrence recently as the car park was only taken over by this firm at the beginning of the year so has stung holiday makers and locals.
kiethton said:
Personally I’d file the letter somewhere and forget about it, likewise any chasers (which are likely to get ever more theatening and may come from their internal “solicitors” in time). I’d only only return to the letter in the very unlikely event (0.01% chance) they issue court proceedings, at which time you’d be able to defend any claim with a variety of defences.
Thank you. I am a little nervous to do so as having searched the company name a lot of hits come back with people having ended up with CCJ's. I also dont want to end up paying the full £100 fine if I can get away with £60, although £60 I could do without this time of year.
Having looked online I have found out that the car park is £4.50 a day fixed charge.
It is ANPR controlled so not too sure if it is one you just have to register your number plate with or if you display a ticket.
I didn’t get a windscreen fine.
The letter today is the first I knew of it.
I have all the parking apps so anytime I park somewhere I just use one of those so I’m just an idiot this time round it seems.
If I can’t negotiate a cheaper fine on the basis this is excessive then I may as well pay the £60. It’s my mistake, maybe I should have looked harder
It is ANPR controlled so not too sure if it is one you just have to register your number plate with or if you display a ticket.
I didn’t get a windscreen fine.
The letter today is the first I knew of it.
I have all the parking apps so anytime I park somewhere I just use one of those so I’m just an idiot this time round it seems.
If I can’t negotiate a cheaper fine on the basis this is excessive then I may as well pay the £60. It’s my mistake, maybe I should have looked harder
S11Steve said:
You mentioned that you were on holiday in the UK - where are you resident?
And where did the letter go to?
Ultimately it is your choice whether to pay the £60 if your time is more valuable, but it's like throwing a chip to a seagull - it only encourages more of them!
I live in the uk too, the letter came to my home And where did the letter go to?
Ultimately it is your choice whether to pay the £60 if your time is more valuable, but it's like throwing a chip to a seagull - it only encourages more of them!
S11Steve said:
Ok - it's a well known location to us.
'Dear Sirs,
I am in receipt of your parking charge notice ref Number xxxxxxx
I wish to appeal as The Keeper of the vehicle on the basis that the documentation is not compliant with POFA 2012 in order to hold me liable as Keeper. The parking charge is not clear whether you consider the the driver or keeper liable for the alleged breach.
Please provide a POPLA authorisation code by return
love n kisses,
Mr Mangos"
When they supply a code, there are plenty of examples of POPLA appeals for keeper liability against Civil Enforcement, a few minutes copy, pasting and editing details to your circumstances will see it overturned at POPLA
Wow thanks! Amazingly helpful! 'Dear Sirs,
I am in receipt of your parking charge notice ref Number xxxxxxx
I wish to appeal as The Keeper of the vehicle on the basis that the documentation is not compliant with POFA 2012 in order to hold me liable as Keeper. The parking charge is not clear whether you consider the the driver or keeper liable for the alleged breach.
Please provide a POPLA authorisation code by return
love n kisses,
Mr Mangos"
When they supply a code, there are plenty of examples of POPLA appeals for keeper liability against Civil Enforcement, a few minutes copy, pasting and editing details to your circumstances will see it overturned at POPLA
Have you been there yourself then?
If so am I right that the signs aren’t easy to spot?
I submitted my Popla appeal on 7th Jan.
I kept it simple as per previous posters advise. So many posts on MSE of appeals pages long full of waffle.
I keep checking for updates as I haven't heard anything and it says that the operator is gathering evidence.
How long do they have to submit their evidence against me and what kind of evidence can they possibly have?
My appeal was that I am the keeper of the car but not the driver and therefore not liable for the parking charge. I submitted evidence in the form of hospital letter that shows I definitely wasn't the driver at the time as due to a health condition I am not able to drive at the moment.
I kept it simple as per previous posters advise. So many posts on MSE of appeals pages long full of waffle.
I keep checking for updates as I haven't heard anything and it says that the operator is gathering evidence.
How long do they have to submit their evidence against me and what kind of evidence can they possibly have?
My appeal was that I am the keeper of the car but not the driver and therefore not liable for the parking charge. I submitted evidence in the form of hospital letter that shows I definitely wasn't the driver at the time as due to a health condition I am not able to drive at the moment.
Hol said:
Think I have balls up my appeal from reading into this more yesterday. The whole thing is quite confusing and Im starting to think I should have just paid the reduced fine at £60.
Im no where near the car park so there's no option to go back and take photos to give evidence of bad signage and don't have anything else to go on.
How long should a POPLA appeal take for a decision?
I submitted my appeal on 7th January. The parking company submitted their response 18th January. Ever since the tracking system has said that the POPLA assesment is in progress.
It'l have been 6 weeks at this stage come tomorrow. Is this normal?
I submitted my appeal on 7th January. The parking company submitted their response 18th January. Ever since the tracking system has said that the POPLA assesment is in progress.
It'l have been 6 weeks at this stage come tomorrow. Is this normal?
silverfoxcc said:
I have just seen this, but have a VERY good look at POFA 2012 Section 9
If that letter is all they sent you they seemed to have failed on several points which should be a winner at POLPLA
Remember that have to abide with this all the way through
Of it isnt all of their letter please post it up back and front, with names and references redacted, we might be able to get something out of this
That was all the letter I received. If that letter is all they sent you they seemed to have failed on several points which should be a winner at POLPLA
Remember that have to abide with this all the way through
Of it isnt all of their letter please post it up back and front, with names and references redacted, we might be able to get something out of this
My appeal has already been submitted though so I don't think there's much I can do now. I did appeal on keeper liability but the parking companies response to that was that they had met all the POFA conditions.
In general my opinion is that the charge either way is unfair as can be demonstrated by the countless reviews left on the Port Of Wells carpark showing that the signage can't be clear as so many people are getting stung by these charges.
I have just checked streetview and it is up to date, but Im not too sure how I could have used that and right now its too late for me anyway.
Im usually so careful with parking. I have 4 parking apps on my phone and don't take risks by not paying just for the fun of it.
Red Devil said:
S11Steve said:
Ok you have two options and only you will know what's best for you.
You can pay it, and it will go away. How much is your time and peace of mind worth?
Or, you can tough it out, and continue to contest it, but CEL are litigious, granted, not the most successful in court, and you do have some valid defence points that I would be happy to stand in front of a judge with. But out is a long and messy process. CEL will often fold before it goes as far as a hearing, but it's still a lot of hassle, especially if it's all a bit new to you.
Personally speaking, I'm not afraid of these companies, I know their tricks and I'm also paid to do this as part of my role, so I'd be happy to run up their legal bills.
^^This^^You can pay it, and it will go away. How much is your time and peace of mind worth?
Or, you can tough it out, and continue to contest it, but CEL are litigious, granted, not the most successful in court, and you do have some valid defence points that I would be happy to stand in front of a judge with. But out is a long and messy process. CEL will often fold before it goes as far as a hearing, but it's still a lot of hassle, especially if it's all a bit new to you.
Personally speaking, I'm not afraid of these companies, I know their tricks and I'm also paid to do this as part of my role, so I'd be happy to run up their legal bills.
It might help others if we knew exactly what the OP put in the appeal and what the adjudicator's reason/s was/were for finding in favour of the PPC.
The POPLA system unfortunately doesn't give a reason as to it failing so I don't know for sure.
I just called Civil Enforcemnt Ltd and spoke to an actual person and offered to pay £60 and saying that I am happy to put that in writing to them on the basis that I didn't see any signage, and that it is clear the signage isn't sufficient and I can demonstrate that others have had the same happen to them.
They were exceptionally rude and said that its £100 or a court summons. I probably should have just paid up when the ticket arrived rather than wasting time.
S11Steve said:
mangos said:
WinstonWolf said:
Yes this is the car park , The car was parked right there looking out to sea Edited by mangos on Tuesday 5th March 17:51
Serve had loads of tickets from CEL for the site further up from there, and I thought that is where you were.
That may be a curve ball that works in your favour, but I'll check in the morning when I'm back at my desk.
Red Devil said:
Now that IS interesting: especially Section11(1)(a) which puts the Commissioners on the same footing as a local authority.
What powers do they have to bring in a private company which operates under PoFA 2012 rather than the statutory regime which applies to a LA?
It's the same type of 'not relevant land' issue which bedevils parking at railway stations where the TOC has sub-contracted car park 'management' out to a PPC.
The government simply wants to carry on delaying a solution - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/470450/resp...
I've just realised that I've been to that very car park just over a year ago. However I definitely don't recall there being any PPC signage back then.
Only the Harbour Commissioners blue ones that you can see in Google Street View - https://goo.gl/maps/meEkDyLJCWK2
Mind you the situation could easily have changed since then.
I cant remember seeing any signage relating to a PPC. What powers do they have to bring in a private company which operates under PoFA 2012 rather than the statutory regime which applies to a LA?
It's the same type of 'not relevant land' issue which bedevils parking at railway stations where the TOC has sub-contracted car park 'management' out to a PPC.
The government simply wants to carry on delaying a solution - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/470450/resp...
I've just realised that I've been to that very car park just over a year ago. However I definitely don't recall there being any PPC signage back then.
Only the Harbour Commissioners blue ones that you can see in Google Street View - https://goo.gl/maps/meEkDyLJCWK2
Mind you the situation could easily have changed since then.
The streetview looks the same as I remember it, but I haven't been able to go back to check.
S11Steve said:
Ok, bylaws are in place at the harbour, but I'm waiting on a reply from them with a map showing the exact coverage.
They seemed a bit upset when I explained that the private company may struggle to properly enforce parking restrictions when bylaws are in place.
If/when it is confirmed that the bylaws do cover that car park, there is nothing that CEL can do to enforce their £100 charge.
Wow, thanks so much for giving this a go for me Steve. They seemed a bit upset when I explained that the private company may struggle to properly enforce parking restrictions when bylaws are in place.
If/when it is confirmed that the bylaws do cover that car park, there is nothing that CEL can do to enforce their £100 charge.
Will wait to see if it is confirmed.
If so, do I still need to wait for claim papers to come through or can I contact them again to get it cancelled?
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