Being messed around, when to say enough is enough?
Discussion
Hi all,
I wondered if poeple might give me an opinion on a situation I find myself in.
Suppose you are building a project car, you have done everything you can yourself (over around 3 years) and it now comes to the last few bits which you decide to place with a recommended specialist.
The specialist gives you a quote and a time frame to complete the work. You accept the offer and deliver the car on the specified date, bang on time.
The specialist says your project is booked in for 2 weeks solid work, and at the end of that 2 weeks the car will be ready for collection and running - fantastic you think to yourself (after 3 years, this is the last part and you will finally see you dream machine running).
Family holiday booked, you jet off happy and content that your car will be ready for collection on return.
Then the excuses start, “didn’t have all the parts I needed”, “supplier didn’t deliver”, “my assistant has been off work”... and on and on...
You pop in on occasion, just to satisfy yourself that the car is still in one piece and actually at the premises, and you’re relieved to see it is, and progress has been made, the work done looking to be of good standard too...
Over this same period the specialist becomes less and less responsive to communication, he refuses to give out mobile number, which I kind of understand as it’s his personal phone I suppose, but he vary rarely ever answers land line, stops responding on Facebook chat and never replies to email... I’m now forced to communicate him through a mutual contact.
And it continues... 6 months have passed, at what point do I just say enough is enough? Is it reasonable to let him carry on, bearing in mind he must have put 100+ hours into it at this point... where should I be on payment? The job is not complete so I wouldn’t be willing to pay the full amount... at the same time, I’m now starting to wonder if he actually has the skills required to deliver.. he might be “stuck”?
What are people’s thoughts? Where do I stand legally?
I wondered if poeple might give me an opinion on a situation I find myself in.
Suppose you are building a project car, you have done everything you can yourself (over around 3 years) and it now comes to the last few bits which you decide to place with a recommended specialist.
The specialist gives you a quote and a time frame to complete the work. You accept the offer and deliver the car on the specified date, bang on time.
The specialist says your project is booked in for 2 weeks solid work, and at the end of that 2 weeks the car will be ready for collection and running - fantastic you think to yourself (after 3 years, this is the last part and you will finally see you dream machine running).
Family holiday booked, you jet off happy and content that your car will be ready for collection on return.
Then the excuses start, “didn’t have all the parts I needed”, “supplier didn’t deliver”, “my assistant has been off work”... and on and on...
You pop in on occasion, just to satisfy yourself that the car is still in one piece and actually at the premises, and you’re relieved to see it is, and progress has been made, the work done looking to be of good standard too...
Over this same period the specialist becomes less and less responsive to communication, he refuses to give out mobile number, which I kind of understand as it’s his personal phone I suppose, but he vary rarely ever answers land line, stops responding on Facebook chat and never replies to email... I’m now forced to communicate him through a mutual contact.
And it continues... 6 months have passed, at what point do I just say enough is enough? Is it reasonable to let him carry on, bearing in mind he must have put 100+ hours into it at this point... where should I be on payment? The job is not complete so I wouldn’t be willing to pay the full amount... at the same time, I’m now starting to wonder if he actually has the skills required to deliver.. he might be “stuck”?
What are people’s thoughts? Where do I stand legally?
Well, after chasing the mutual contact (which really isn’t fair, it’s nothing to do with him), I had a short reply.
I was told he will be back on the case next week, been off and has closed the business for the last couple of weeks due to serious illness - I have to treat that with compassion (to a point, it still doesn’t excuse the previous months).
I’ll be looking for a dramatic change in communication and progress before the end of this month, or just settle up and collect the car.
I’d rather not say what is being done, as I don’t think it’s fair to name and shame (at this point), and describing the work could lead a motivated individual to identify the business.
It is fair to say the work that needs doing is the harder / higher skilled bit of the work... that also depends on the work done so far being right.
What’s confusing is the track record of doing this kind of work with aplomb... and as above, if you’re a professional, surely you want a vehicle in, out and billed as quickly as possible, not tying up workshop space and unbilled hours.
Thanks for your thoughts people, it certainly motivated me to take a harder line and realise it’s probably time to call it a day... sadly.
I was told he will be back on the case next week, been off and has closed the business for the last couple of weeks due to serious illness - I have to treat that with compassion (to a point, it still doesn’t excuse the previous months).
I’ll be looking for a dramatic change in communication and progress before the end of this month, or just settle up and collect the car.
I’d rather not say what is being done, as I don’t think it’s fair to name and shame (at this point), and describing the work could lead a motivated individual to identify the business.
It is fair to say the work that needs doing is the harder / higher skilled bit of the work... that also depends on the work done so far being right.
What’s confusing is the track record of doing this kind of work with aplomb... and as above, if you’re a professional, surely you want a vehicle in, out and billed as quickly as possible, not tying up workshop space and unbilled hours.
Thanks for your thoughts people, it certainly motivated me to take a harder line and realise it’s probably time to call it a day... sadly.
CaptainSensib1e said:
Was the work agreed at a fixed price? Sounds like he might have realised it's going to cost a lot more to finish than he originally quoted and has put the whole project on the back burner for that reason.
This is, I think, what really might have happened... he under quoted the work, or underestimated the time and effort it would take to complete, then basically shelved my project in favour of quick paying in-out jobs and has been doing my car in evenings / spare time.It was at a fixed price, so after the two weeks elapsed I guess the only way he can justify the extra time is to do it after hours etc.
My issue with that is, I gave him the job in the first place due to the 2 week turn around promised (after spending 3 years building something, someone offering to have it turned around in 2 weeks, or even 4 is a huge relief and the perfect answer)... at no point did I say “yea mate, if you could just work on it in you spare time when you have nothing better to do” - if I had wanted that, I would have just done it myself.
To whomever said will I take the advice, yes, I am reading and taking this in, sadly it’s just confirmation of what I know I really have to deal with head on... which is gutting, really thought it would be on the road this summer, alas, little chance of that now.
singlecoil said:
It won't be the firm taking the OP to court, they don't need to, they've got his car and I expect won't release it until he's paid what they think he owes.
This is also a very valid point and a real worry. With ~£50k of my property in his possession I am not in a great negotiating position.Really the only chip I have to play is the damage it may do to his business and credibility if I release the details.
BertBert said:
They don't have to be nasty or dishonest or devious. They are just crap at running their business and probably well meaning. They under estimate the job, they end up with too many jobs, often jobs are hard and hit blockers and they are probably very talented but the world's worst finishers. Then they hide when things go wrong. A mega well-trodden path. And yes that often turns into short-cuts and bodges which leads to deception.
When you talk to others who have used the same specialist, you will get people with very positive experiences and you can't understand how that happens! Almost the luck of the draw. There is a well known Porsche specialist (not to be named) who is (rightly) revered for his skill and knowledge. But if your car goes there for resto works, you won't see it for years and years!
And of course there are the out and out dodgy bodgers. But I doubt the OP's specialist is one.
Bert
I’d say this about sums it up. I’d also agree this kind of behaviour / performance / business accumen is reallly not uncommon in the car / motorsport industry... the guy that built my engine behaved in a very similar way.When you talk to others who have used the same specialist, you will get people with very positive experiences and you can't understand how that happens! Almost the luck of the draw. There is a well known Porsche specialist (not to be named) who is (rightly) revered for his skill and knowledge. But if your car goes there for resto works, you won't see it for years and years!
And of course there are the out and out dodgy bodgers. But I doubt the OP's specialist is one.
Bert
I guess they are engineers first, business men second.
I’d also say, even if you go up the chain it’s still prevelant, I know of a guy that commissioned pro-drive with a car build and got a similar experience.
This is why I have been so forgiving, I’d half expect the next “expert” to do the same thing anyway.
Edited by sl0wlane on Friday 22 March 06:02
As much as I hate to say it... you guys were right.
Several chats with the guy doing the work, zero change in behaviour, car still not done, in fact very little moved forward since I started this thread.
Monday I will be giving the final ultimatum:
1. Return the car fully working, all work done as agreed by the end of June = I pay whatever is due and go away happy (ish)
2. I pay for all work done so far and collect the car next week. I will then commission another specialist to verify the work done and complete the job, any costs incurred to correct any faults will be claimed back, via the courts if necessary.
Why does a hobby have to be so bloody taxing, I am fed up to the back teeth of dealing with the blasé attitude in this industry.
Several chats with the guy doing the work, zero change in behaviour, car still not done, in fact very little moved forward since I started this thread.
Monday I will be giving the final ultimatum:
1. Return the car fully working, all work done as agreed by the end of June = I pay whatever is due and go away happy (ish)
2. I pay for all work done so far and collect the car next week. I will then commission another specialist to verify the work done and complete the job, any costs incurred to correct any faults will be claimed back, via the courts if necessary.
Why does a hobby have to be so bloody taxing, I am fed up to the back teeth of dealing with the blasé attitude in this industry.
Edited by sl0wlane on Saturday 18th May 09:25
Ok, mind sadly made up, time to settle up and move on.
The work being done was designing, making and installing a complete wiring loom.
The loom needs to take into account:
Emtron KV8 ECU
AIM MXS dash
OBR CAN keypad
HP Electronik PDM
Wireless steering wheel control
Battery isolator
Electric water pump
Electric fire extinguisher
A very high count of sensors, just about everything has a sensor on it.
The car was completely stripped of the original loom, so requires a complete loom end to end, including lights, etc etc.
The 2nd part of the work is to get the above lot of electronics to talk to each other and map the car, I have a known good base map, all of the above componants are known to talk to each other - other cars have the same kit list and work.
The guy quoted 2 weeks (or approx £4K + parts) to do the whole lot including mapping.
With hindsight and having subsequently had quotes from others, I now know this is an optimistic estimate of the time it would take.
This isn’t about money for me, he was given the work over other choices because of the quick turn around promised, at the time the price appeared to be right, and to be honest it could have been higher, I just want the damn thing running.
So far the loom is around about 90% done, and looks to be done well...however I can’t know it’s done well until it’s all verified working, it could be pinned wrong, the circuits could be a mess, who knows until it actually works.
I’ll update this tomorrow with the outcome of the conversation.
The work being done was designing, making and installing a complete wiring loom.
The loom needs to take into account:
Emtron KV8 ECU
AIM MXS dash
OBR CAN keypad
HP Electronik PDM
Wireless steering wheel control
Battery isolator
Electric water pump
Electric fire extinguisher
A very high count of sensors, just about everything has a sensor on it.
The car was completely stripped of the original loom, so requires a complete loom end to end, including lights, etc etc.
The 2nd part of the work is to get the above lot of electronics to talk to each other and map the car, I have a known good base map, all of the above componants are known to talk to each other - other cars have the same kit list and work.
The guy quoted 2 weeks (or approx £4K + parts) to do the whole lot including mapping.
With hindsight and having subsequently had quotes from others, I now know this is an optimistic estimate of the time it would take.
This isn’t about money for me, he was given the work over other choices because of the quick turn around promised, at the time the price appeared to be right, and to be honest it could have been higher, I just want the damn thing running.
So far the loom is around about 90% done, and looks to be done well...however I can’t know it’s done well until it’s all verified working, it could be pinned wrong, the circuits could be a mess, who knows until it actually works.
I’ll update this tomorrow with the outcome of the conversation.
Edited by sl0wlane on Sunday 19th May 06:18
-Neil- said:
This an outfit in Bromsgrove specialising in light weight vehicles with Jap engines?
Ahh, the guy that shorted me on various parts I paid for and he agreed to supply, used parts I supplied on other people’s cars without asking, supplied incomplete parts, blatantly lied about having custom parts made, missed every single agreed deadline and sat on my money for 2 years... no it’s not that guy.Edited by sl0wlane on Sunday 19th May 16:03
BertBert said:
Wow, that's quite some project. Does the specialist have a track record of being able to do all that stuff? Very specialised skills. Definitely get it back. I suspect you'll have a fun time agreeing the amount to pay. It'll possibly cost more for new guys to take on a half built loom than to start from scratch.
What a muddle, hope you make some sense of it.
Bert
I suspect you are right... track record, according to his friends yes, and his workshop certainly sees some expensive metal.What a muddle, hope you make some sense of it.
Bert
Tried calling all day today, no answer as usual.
The guys workshop is on the side of his house (fair play having a full dyno cell on the side of your house though - a toy I would love to have!)
The car should be stored in one of the two bays he has next to the cell, but I suspect it’s been kept outside under a tarp at some point as some parts of surface rust have started to appear... that and there is no way he can get other cars in and out without putting it outside.
The fact is, the only “amicable” way of collecting the car is to get an itemised invoice, pay the invoice, making it clear the work will be checked and it is paid on the condition all work is to a good standard, and then collect the car...
I’ll then have the work inspected by a known professional and take him to court to retrieve the funds if the work is not found to be 100% good.
Luckily, through business I have some good debt collection contacts, and a pretty large friend that come help me push it on the trailer.
I’ll keep trying tomorrow.
The guys workshop is on the side of his house (fair play having a full dyno cell on the side of your house though - a toy I would love to have!)
The car should be stored in one of the two bays he has next to the cell, but I suspect it’s been kept outside under a tarp at some point as some parts of surface rust have started to appear... that and there is no way he can get other cars in and out without putting it outside.
The fact is, the only “amicable” way of collecting the car is to get an itemised invoice, pay the invoice, making it clear the work will be checked and it is paid on the condition all work is to a good standard, and then collect the car...
I’ll then have the work inspected by a known professional and take him to court to retrieve the funds if the work is not found to be 100% good.
Luckily, through business I have some good debt collection contacts, and a pretty large friend that come help me push it on the trailer.
I’ll keep trying tomorrow.
Finally spoke to him yesterday... made it clear I was collecting the car finished of not, expressed my extreme disappointment, but offered to pay whatever is due, I don’t want to fall out but need to draw a line etc.
He appologised profusely, understands he has f
ked up and promised it will be finished and running within 2 weeks, this was all said in front of a witness (another professional and someone that he would be embarrassed to let down - the guy that reccomended him).
You will all say I’m being soft, collect the car etc... my current situation means I can’t get to the car for 2 weeks anyway (2nd child due 2 days ago, work busier than a very busy thing)... so this is the best option and no sooner than I could get there even if I wanted to.
Collecting is not that straight forward, need to organise trailer transport, prep the guy that’s taking it next for snagging and bodywork etc (thankfully a close friend and just round the corner from my home), no matter what, the car is being collected in 2 weeks.
We shall see... if it runs, doesn’t explode and makes the numbers I want... I’ll be posting a video, if he fails again... I’ll collect the car and take it to someone that can do the job. Will also update this thread with further details and a timelined rundown of my experience with the “business”.
He appologised profusely, understands he has f
ked up and promised it will be finished and running within 2 weeks, this was all said in front of a witness (another professional and someone that he would be embarrassed to let down - the guy that reccomended him).You will all say I’m being soft, collect the car etc... my current situation means I can’t get to the car for 2 weeks anyway (2nd child due 2 days ago, work busier than a very busy thing)... so this is the best option and no sooner than I could get there even if I wanted to.
Collecting is not that straight forward, need to organise trailer transport, prep the guy that’s taking it next for snagging and bodywork etc (thankfully a close friend and just round the corner from my home), no matter what, the car is being collected in 2 weeks.
We shall see... if it runs, doesn’t explode and makes the numbers I want... I’ll be posting a video, if he fails again... I’ll collect the car and take it to someone that can do the job. Will also update this thread with further details and a timelined rundown of my experience with the “business”.
Edited by sl0wlane on Thursday 23 May 05:23
A baby girl delivered last Friday, and life has been as hectic as expected since...
Anyway, collection booked for this Saturday 8th June.
He has changed his communications, and now replies to emails in a professional manner... rather than addressing me as “darling” (quite condescending and unprofessional in most emails).
Partly I think because I contacted another specialist and that guy, being a professional, made contact to see if the current guy had up to date schematics, spreadsheet of pins etc...
Anyway, he says he has now tested all circuits, all good and he’s now working on getting the CAN stuff working...(the hard part).
4 working days to go... I will fall over if he actually manages to complete it.
Anyway, collection booked for this Saturday 8th June.
He has changed his communications, and now replies to emails in a professional manner... rather than addressing me as “darling” (quite condescending and unprofessional in most emails).
Partly I think because I contacted another specialist and that guy, being a professional, made contact to see if the current guy had up to date schematics, spreadsheet of pins etc...
Anyway, he says he has now tested all circuits, all good and he’s now working on getting the CAN stuff working...(the hard part).
4 working days to go... I will fall over if he actually manages to complete it.
Edited by sl0wlane on Thursday 6th June 05:09
Alright Clouseau 
It’s his general manner, not directed at me or my name, but certainly not professional, and not appreciated.
When your trying to get on with someone and build a relationship, sometimes you have to go with it / play along with the banter... if I had thought it was a personal insult I wouldn’t have let it fly,
It’s his general manner, not directed at me or my name, but certainly not professional, and not appreciated.
When your trying to get on with someone and build a relationship, sometimes you have to go with it / play along with the banter... if I had thought it was a personal insult I wouldn’t have let it fly,
CAN stuff now reported all working, dash talking to ECU, PDM talking to switch panel etc etc... he might just pull it off...
Final hardware checks and it might come to life tomorrow... which is almost even more annoying, why did I have to get arsey about it to make it happen almost over night... why delay it 10 months?!...
Anyway...
500bhp? Precisely 0bhp till it works... fingers and toes are crossed!
Final hardware checks and it might come to life tomorrow... which is almost even more annoying, why did I have to get arsey about it to make it happen almost over night... why delay it 10 months?!...
Anyway...
500bhp? Precisely 0bhp till it works... fingers and toes are crossed!
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