Local road, sudden "Private Road No Access" signs appeared

[ElectricSoup]

A road local to my house, which I have been using as a pedestrian, cyclist and car driver for over 10 years now, has suddenly sprouted "Private Road - No Access" signs at both ends. These look like proper metal Local Authority jobs, on twin posts, same as any other road has. They state the name of the road in large type, then "Private Road - No Access" below it. However they don't bear the Local Authority name or crest like other roads in the town. I've been using the road almost daily for over 10 years, and so do many other people in the neighbourhood. There are no gates or barriers of any kind at either end.

Given that it's never had any such signs before, is it not now a "right of way", as it has bene used for so long without restriction? Do any legal types know where I stand regarding use of this road now?

[ElectricSoup]

Wouldn't do much good, the sign's gone up a few weeks back and the google images are from 2012, so the sign isn't on them. I'll see if I can get a photo tonight.

[ElectricSoup]

Good thinking, shame it's not authoritative.

But of course, lightbulb moment, I'm going to need to write to my local council. I think this sign may have been erected incorrectly. But I am no expert.

The road is an unmade single track lane, I've always assumed it to be unadopted, but not "private". There has always been a road name sign at one end, with nothing other than the road's name on it. Here's one end of the road in question, you have to zoom in to see the old road name sign in the hedge. Notice, no private road signs or other restrictions:

https://goo.gl/maps/134otxpbzo2Zmt4J6

Edited by ElectricSoup on Thursday 29th August 15:00

[ElectricSoup]

Sheepshanks said:

ElectricSoup said:

But of course, lightbulb moment, I'm going to need to write to my local council. I think this sign may have been erected incorrectly. But I am no expert.

I can't imagine a council would put up "private road" signs. Of course it may have been bought from the same place they get theirs from so that it looks the same in order to give it more authority.

This is what I suspect. But I don't think it's a private road, and even if it is it has never been signed as such, and has been used for, I expect, hundreds of years, which conveys a right of way.

[ElectricSoup]

Type R Tom said:

Put a streetview up anyway, it can be fairly easy to tell from the gully, kerbs, paving etc. if it's private or not.

Link above.

You're going to be jolly disappointed if you're a gully, kerb or paving enthusiast!

[ElectricSoup]

Mammasaid said:

Check your local definitive ROW maps, it should tell you what the status of the road is.

https://www.geograph.org.uk/article/Definitive-map...

Neither Reading nor Berkshire are listed. And what the hell is Borsetshire?

[ElectricSoup]

Mammasaid said:

Must be a dead link for West Berkshire, it's below;

https://info.westberks.gov.uk/article/28884

And Borsetshire? Dum da dum, da dum da dum, dum da dum, da dum dum....

Click link and look in top left

Thanks, but I'm in Reading, not West Berkshire. There's no link for Reading Borough. I had a ferret in the Oxfordshire link as my bit of Reading used to be in Oxfordshire, but all the current Reading area was greyed out. So I suppose our People's Republic Council aren't too keen on the People knowing anything. Berkshire was abolished about 20 years ago in favour of unitary Councils.

Ah, The Archers is it? Jolly good. Never listened to anything more than the theme tune as I lunge for the off switch...

[ElectricSoup]

Fittster said:

ElectricSoup said:

Mammasaid said:

Check your local definitive ROW maps, it should tell you what the status of the road is.

https://www.geograph.org.uk/article/Definitive-map...

Neither Reading nor Berkshire are listed. And what the hell is Borsetshire?

Give up any conception you have about being middle class.

Tum te tum te tum

I may have elevated, through my own academic and subsequent professional endeavours, my family's lot such that my children may be considered middle class, but as the son of a boy expelled from school at 15, and who subsequently lived life as an unskilled factory worker, and having spent my first years living in a caravan with no power or running water, I'll always be working class. I am under no illusions.

[ElectricSoup]

Thanks Mervin. Awesome reply, however I'm still confused. You say your local example, Hawthorn Park, is a private road but also public highway? Does that mean the No Access sign is wrong?

Here's a photo of the sign I just took. If the road has been used by the public, unencumbered for decades, surely it can't be marked No Access?

[ElectricSoup]

Well I've emailed the caaaaaaaahncil, let's see what they say.

[ElectricSoup]

Swervin_Mervin said:

ElectricSoup said:

Thanks, but I'm in Reading, not West Berkshire. There's no link for Reading Borough. I had a ferret in the Oxfordshire link as my bit of Reading used to be in Oxfordshire, but all the current Reading area was greyed out. So I suppose our People's Republic Council aren't too keen on the People knowing anything. Berkshire was abolished about 20 years ago in favour of unitary Councils.

Ah, The Archers is it? Jolly good. Never listened to anything more than the theme tune as I lunge for the off switch...

Reading is a Unitary Authority so responsible for their own PROWs and Highways. I've just had a quick look though and it seems there's nothing on their site. You'd have to make an enquiry on that basis, either as to the status of the road in question, or make an appointment to go and view the Definitive Map

If it's been demonstrably open to the public for a very long time then it sounds like someone is trying to fence it off to fend off any claims. Certainly looks like it should be public highway, but I could well imagine it not being adopted. ETA - here's an FOI request from 2014, and if you look in the list of private roads it seems to be listed. https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/highways_ma...

As an aside, there's nothing wrong with them identifying a route as private - but they can't block it off if it's public highway. There's one near here:

https://goo.gl/maps/hF9u6jnWxdQGztaN6

Edited by Swervin_Mervin on Thursday 29th August 16:04

Edited by Swervin_Mervin on Thursday 29th August 16:05

Just going back to this one from Mervin for a moment, the list of private roads shows there's an Ayrton Senna Road in Tilehurst. Well I never.

Also, this road is listed a private, with absolutely no signage or the like, and is used quite freely by traffic at al times, and has council street lighting and all that jazz:

https://goo.gl/maps/ngzXum3cErN1dceQ8

Is this an absolute can of worms?

[ElectricSoup]

Swervin_Mervin said:

I think it's simply an attempt at a toothless threat tbh.

I hope so. I expect a puce faced retired Major will come barrelling out of his front door the next time I drive down there.

Walked down it and back this weekend with the dog, didn't get challenged.

[ElectricSoup]

Interesting, and swift, reply from the council (apologies for grammatical errors, they are not mine):

"this is indeed not public highway and though residents may of funded this them selves these are non enforceable, I will look to see if they have been installed on Reading Borough Council public highway .

If indeed this is the case they will be removed, however if they are within the boundary of Boundary Lane then there may be nothing we can do as they are responsible for this road.

I will double check they are within there rights to install such name plates and will get back to you as soon as I have more information. However there may still be access rights to this road, we are looking into this and will be in contact as soon as we have an answer."

And for the benefit of those defenders of private land, this is exactly why I'm asking the question. I have used the road for 10 years without any question that it wasn't a right of way, as it is has never been signed as private, nor restricted. I'm asking the question because I want to know if I am entitled to continue to use it, and if I'm not I shall desist.

Thanks also to the poster above with the point about easements for surrounding properties. My house is very close to this lane and was built on land which was part of the same private estate before it was developed. There may well be an easement in my property deeds entitling me to use the road in some capacity, I shall look in to that also. And if that's the case I'll write to residents on that road and offer to contribute financially to maintenance if and when required.

[ElectricSoup]

Reply from the Council is in, finally. There is no established Public Right of Way over the lane, however "if there is a claim for access rights and it can be proved that uninterrupted use has been in place for more than 20 years, then the public is legally entitled to cross / use the road. It is not for the Council to prove access rights exist nor are we in a position to do so, however, if access is being denied the Council will investigate accordingly. If the general public has had uninterrupted access which has been in place for many years (usually more than 20), then highway access rights can be claimed, however, this does not then make the private lane a public highway maintainable at public expense."

I am certain that it is the case that uninterrupted use by the general public has been in place for over 20 years, I have known the road all that time and there has never been a block to use, nor any "Private No Access" signs.

I wonder how one would go about proving this?

I will also consult my own property title as I think I may have an easement over the Lane.

[ElectricSoup]

Swervin_Mervin said:

I still maintain that the LHA are wrong on this. OP - how old is the road?

It was part of an ancient Estate - there's a massive stately home a few miles away (clue: The Eagle Has Landed) which is still the centre of a large private estate of farm land. This road was a lane in a section of that estate which was sold off for development in what must have been the latter half of the 19th Century. There are large Victorian houses in the neighbourhood, and those properties (including mine, which was built on the land of a large Victorian "Hall" subsequently demolished), have several rights and easements over local facilities such as lanes and riverside landing spots. Residents of the developed area have been using the lane for all this time, well over 100 years, and there have never been any "private" signs. There remain several unadopted roads in the neighbourhood, but most have been adopted by now.

[ElectricSoup]

I think what they have done in erecting the sign is lawful as it stands, until such time as a Public Right of Way is claimed and registered. I'm wondering whether I can be bothered with that - I use the lane frequently as a scenic short cut on foot or on my bike, it's not essential but it is a bit of detour without using it. I'm going to check my own property deeds for an easement first, when I get around to it. I think they're stored at my solicitor's though. If I have the easement which I suspect I do have, then I'll not bother. If I don't, then I might.

[ElectricSoup]

poo at Paul's said:

Graveworm said:

Swervin_Mervin said:

See references to the 20yr rule above. If it's established public highway then you cannot gate it off or prevent access in any other way, regardless of whether it's privately maintained or not

It's not a public highway until the right has been claimed. Continuous use can be grounds to claim it but until it has been successfully claimed it's not a highway and no rights exist.

That's how I read it too.

Public Highway means maintained and paid for by the local authority. Public Right of Way can exist over private land without it being Public Highway. Right of Way is what you can "claim" to be applied as a general member of the public if you can prove 20 years continuous use without barriers etc. To make a road Public Highway, however, the owners/residents would have to apply to the local authority to adopt it as such.

[ElectricSoup]

Swervin_Mervin said:

ElectricSoup said:

Public Highway means maintained and paid for by the local authority.

No it doesn't. That's specifically adopted highway. Public highway is highway that's open for the public to use, but may be privately maintained.

I'm just repeating what the council said to me, as per their emails I posted up on page 3. I see you disagreed with them there too.

I have to take the word of my local council on this - are you more qualified than them on this? I ask respectfully, I'm not looking for an argument.

Unless I'm missing something? Which is quite plausible.

[ElectricSoup]

OK, thanks. I think what we have here is the owners/residents of the lane not wanting anyone else going down it, and the council not wanting it to become maintainable at council expense.

Still need to get round to digging out my deeds to see if there's an easement.

[ElectricSoup]

Boundary Lane.

Grass Hill is more terrifying than the North Face of the Eiger.