Discussion
Hi all.
I'm after any advice on my girlfriend's work situation please.
She is a hairdresser & is returning to work on Saturday. She is on a zero hours contract & has been working at the same Salon for nearly 7 years. She had a meeting yesterday & her boss has told her (& the 3 other girls on the same T's & C's) that they will be working 09:00 - 20:00 every day (7 days a week) for the next 2 to 3 weeks. This includes half an hour break per day.
Her previous hours varied a bit but she usually had Mon (& or) Tues off every week & worked 09:00 - 18:30 but usually had an early finish or two, & it was 11:00 - 17:00 on Sunday.
Now I think that her employer can't force her to do the hours, but they can ask?...& if she agrees she has to sign/agree to opt out of the 48 hour week?
If she refuses then her boss can potentially sack her, as with zero hours he doesn't need a reason??
The bit I think may be illegal is half an hour break only all day?
I'm just wondering if anyone has any advice as I could be completely wrong but I do worry if she refuses to do the hours & consecutive days she could risk getting the boot? Her boss is a bit of a sod anyway & is quite often taking advantage & is used to the girls not standing up to him. She has had many weeks in the past when he's asked her to work the full 7 days, which she always has.
Thanks,
Ben
I'm after any advice on my girlfriend's work situation please.
She is a hairdresser & is returning to work on Saturday. She is on a zero hours contract & has been working at the same Salon for nearly 7 years. She had a meeting yesterday & her boss has told her (& the 3 other girls on the same T's & C's) that they will be working 09:00 - 20:00 every day (7 days a week) for the next 2 to 3 weeks. This includes half an hour break per day.
Her previous hours varied a bit but she usually had Mon (& or) Tues off every week & worked 09:00 - 18:30 but usually had an early finish or two, & it was 11:00 - 17:00 on Sunday.
Now I think that her employer can't force her to do the hours, but they can ask?...& if she agrees she has to sign/agree to opt out of the 48 hour week?
If she refuses then her boss can potentially sack her, as with zero hours he doesn't need a reason??
The bit I think may be illegal is half an hour break only all day?
I'm just wondering if anyone has any advice as I could be completely wrong but I do worry if she refuses to do the hours & consecutive days she could risk getting the boot? Her boss is a bit of a sod anyway & is quite often taking advantage & is used to the girls not standing up to him. She has had many weeks in the past when he's asked her to work the full 7 days, which she always has.
Thanks,
Ben
Thanks for the replies.
Her main issue is the no days off. She's also pretty sure the 2-3 weeks will turn into much longer. She doesn't want/need the money but also was expecting to do a bit extra than usual due to the likely demand.
She is going to speak to her boss about having at least one day off a week & she is kind of thinking/hoping that he couldn't do without her at the moment (she has is the most experienced there) but I just hope it doesn't backfire! Yes, it is a fine line!
If it seems like he (her boss) isn't breaking any rules, then it appears she's just going to ask nicely about a day off a week & accept whatever he says.
Thanks,
Ben
Her main issue is the no days off. She's also pretty sure the 2-3 weeks will turn into much longer. She doesn't want/need the money but also was expecting to do a bit extra than usual due to the likely demand.
She is going to speak to her boss about having at least one day off a week & she is kind of thinking/hoping that he couldn't do without her at the moment (she has is the most experienced there) but I just hope it doesn't backfire! Yes, it is a fine line!
If it seems like he (her boss) isn't breaking any rules, then it appears she's just going to ask nicely about a day off a week & accept whatever he says.
Thanks,
Ben
BertBert said:
The trouble is that the guy obviously wants to deliver as much as possible which I presume is financially good for the staff as well. The only suggestion is to try and negotiate with owner - but you've answered that question. I also presume there's a lot of possible staff for the boss to choose from. Addressing it as a legal problem of employment law will only end up in one place.
Bert
Without going into too much detail, a lot of which I don't know the full story anyway, the bloke does seem like a bit of a dodgy geezer. He is definitely focused on the pound note & doesn't really care how he gets it, but I suppose you have to be to some extent. He also still pays them in cash, which I can't work out why, but they do have a payslip with tax, national insurance details etc.Bert
The one reason he's given for the long hours, no days off is they are short staffed but that excuse is rolled out every time he wants them to work an extra day.
Basically I think he wants to get as much out of as few a staff as possible. A lot of it, to me, seems morally harsh but perhaps not legally wrong.
Cheers,
Ben
Carbon Sasquatch said:
Just think through the other options & then make a decision.....
4 staff - all do 7 days
alternatively they each do 6 and you hire an additional other person to cover the 4 days off.
Similar scenario if they don't want to work evenings.
Then things return to normal & you have 5 staff on zero hours, so you just reduce the hours of everyone proportionately - or you zero the hours of a 'troublemaker'.
No right answer - consider the options & potential consequences - then make a decision.
Good points, hadn't really thought of it like that. Could end up shooting themselves in the foot.4 staff - all do 7 days
alternatively they each do 6 and you hire an additional other person to cover the 4 days off.
Similar scenario if they don't want to work evenings.
Then things return to normal & you have 5 staff on zero hours, so you just reduce the hours of everyone proportionately - or you zero the hours of a 'troublemaker'.
No right answer - consider the options & potential consequences - then make a decision.
Perhaps it's best to ride out the 2-3 weeks & see what happens after that. I will pass on these points to her.
Cheers,
Ben
helix402 said:
Thanks, I will have a read through. Lord.Vader said:
Surely you are outside the European working time directive and that is not enough breaks.
For a 11 hour day I would expect a minimum of 30 minutes lunch plus two 15 min breaks, also what is her commute time as you should have a minimum 11 hours rest between working.
To put it bluntly I’d tell him to pay an extra 20% or FRO.
This was my thinking, including the last comment!! She only has a 20 minute commute so no issue there.For a 11 hour day I would expect a minimum of 30 minutes lunch plus two 15 min breaks, also what is her commute time as you should have a minimum 11 hours rest between working.
To put it bluntly I’d tell him to pay an extra 20% or FRO.
WonkeyDonkey said:
If she doesn't massively need the cash then I would negotiate hard just to work what she wants to work. If they wanted more they should have gave her a proper contract in the first place.
Is he providing adequate PPE?
My initial advice was just this, but she is a bit paranoid about losing the job altogether I think. I don't think that would be the end of the world as she's ok financially but she's very independant & doesn't want to rely on anyone else inbetween jobs, which I understand.Is he providing adequate PPE?
Yes, they have sorted out all the PPE, at least.
Cheers,
Ben
Pegscratch said:
Is she paid hourly?
If she is paid hourly and can find something to spend the money on the common sense approach right now might be to take the extra money. As has been said, the risk of employing someone else is that they are good enough that it affects the keenness to retain certain individuals after this has passed. The argument about doing it with as few people as possible - if they're paid hourly - is weak at best as if you're paying for 50 working hours a day it costs you (thereabouts) the same for five people to do it as it does for ten people to do it.
Its oft trotted out - and occasionally unfairly - but particularly in retail and salons the line "grateful to have a job at the end of this" is very much something to bear in mind. There are a LOT of places that are not going to survive reopening and the changes that this period is likely to have brought about long term, and smashing a few weeks work for a 65% pay bump is a great way to "show support" whilst (frankly) absolutely rinsing it at the same time. That's got to be a half decent holiday abroad at the end of it...
EU WTD is something you can opt out of anyway, and based on her previous hours she was precariously close on some weeks anyway. Bank the money, have a discussion if it goes on much further than the three weeks would be my stance, unless it significantly impacted other people (i.e. dependents).
Yes, she's paid hourly.If she is paid hourly and can find something to spend the money on the common sense approach right now might be to take the extra money. As has been said, the risk of employing someone else is that they are good enough that it affects the keenness to retain certain individuals after this has passed. The argument about doing it with as few people as possible - if they're paid hourly - is weak at best as if you're paying for 50 working hours a day it costs you (thereabouts) the same for five people to do it as it does for ten people to do it.
Its oft trotted out - and occasionally unfairly - but particularly in retail and salons the line "grateful to have a job at the end of this" is very much something to bear in mind. There are a LOT of places that are not going to survive reopening and the changes that this period is likely to have brought about long term, and smashing a few weeks work for a 65% pay bump is a great way to "show support" whilst (frankly) absolutely rinsing it at the same time. That's got to be a half decent holiday abroad at the end of it...
EU WTD is something you can opt out of anyway, and based on her previous hours she was precariously close on some weeks anyway. Bank the money, have a discussion if it goes on much further than the three weeks would be my stance, unless it significantly impacted other people (i.e. dependents).
Perhaps we've been looking at it the wrong way & should look at the positives of the extra money & see how it stands after the 3 weeks. She is going to be bloody knackered but, in the current climate, things could be worse. I will pass on all the thoughts to her & see what she thinks. Her mindset seemed to be changing slightly after being quite put out initially!
Cheers,
Ben
Regarding the suggestions about the opportunity to go mobile, we actually discussed this last night & did agree it's worth looking into but I think she will only do that if she gets the boot, i.e. a worst case scenario, whereas I would be thinking of it more as a possible opportunity....but that's easy for me to say.
She's going to chat to her boss on Saturday, I think her sole aim will be about at last one day off a week. I will report back with the outcome!
Cheers,
Ben
She's going to chat to her boss on Saturday, I think her sole aim will be about at last one day off a week. I will report back with the outcome!
Cheers,
Ben
mmm-five said:
Was the salon owner good enough to pay them during the furlough period (either directly or via the CV Job Retention Scheme) for their average lost hours?
If he did, then I'd probably consider that he's tried to be a decent employer, which would go a long way in your decision to help him now.
If he didn't, then I'd probably consider him a s
t employer and he can go screw himself!
This part I don't understand. & neither does the missus, when we should really.If he did, then I'd probably consider that he's tried to be a decent employer, which would go a long way in your decision to help him now.
If he didn't, then I'd probably consider him a s
t employer and he can go screw himself!What I do know is she was receiving the 80% of her wage. It was going into her Bank, as opposed to the cash in hand (obviously) which was usual.
Whether it was direct or part of the scheme mentioned, I'm not sure. I'll get more detail out of her about this.
Cheers, Ben
Pit Pony said:
So you need to support her, by providing a calm home life, healthy meals, keep the place clean, do the ironing etc.
Have a bath ready for when she walks in, clothes straight into the washing machine. ( because contaminated) and a meal at the table EVERY day.
This is you time to shine.
Thank God she's not on PH to give her any ideas! She actually gets this treatment anyway, just from her Mum as she lives at home! She knows she'd suffer a dramatic drop in service if she moved in with me!Have a bath ready for when she walks in, clothes straight into the washing machine. ( because contaminated) and a meal at the table EVERY day.
This is you time to shine.
Pegscratch said:
littleredrooster said:
An 11-hour shift requires a 30-minute break. I do (did...) them regularly.
This was my understanding. I believe an extra hour "necessitates" a slightly longer break?Either way there's a lot of "it's illegal" (it isn't) in here. There are considerations, but nothing at face value about the request is illegal. Employment and contracts are indeed a two way street so "can we get a day off or two in there" is a reasonable ask, but if you have assurances on it being a one-time thing I'd also consider it a positive that they have paid through furlough (which of course morally they are obliged to do) and an indication of them being overall a reasonable employer, and right now they're just asking you to be a "reasonable" (probably more "exceptional", but anyway) employee.
I did think the 11 hour shift required more breaks but, again, happy to be told otherwise.
Yes true, some credit does need to be given for the furlough payments though so I'll make sure she recognises that.
Cheers,
Ben
gazza285 said:
Do not confuse the right to with must. They are entitled to a break, but do not have to take it, they can work for more than thirteen hours if they want to, and same with the twenty four and forty eight hours continuous rest, if they want to work then they can.
The employer can ask, but the employee has the right to say yes as well as no.
This is the way I saw it. But, if she does politely refuse to say no as she wants a day off then, being zero hours, her boss could just say Ok bye, I'll find someone that does want to work etc etc.The employer can ask, but the employee has the right to say yes as well as no.
If the above is the case, I think it's unlikely he will do that to her but we'll see how 'negotations' go on Saturday.
Cheers,
Ben
Update from the weekend, bit of an anti-climax.
She didn't get to have an 'official chat' with her boss, other than to pass a comment saying she needs to speak to him as there's no way she'll be able to to the advised hours, to which he pretty much ignored apparently. But anyway.....
It doesn't appear that it's going to be as bad as she thought. They shut the shop at 18:00 on Saturday (which was actually earlier than usual!) as there were no customers. She didn't get a break all day but it's probably more down to her not asking.
Sunday they did 11:00 - 17:00, which are usual hours.
So, it looks like it's pretty much the same as usual except no day off for a 2 or 3 weeks but she can cope with this as long as they aren't 11 hour days.
I'm still going to encourage her to look into the mobile option, or at least moving on somewhere else.
Thanks for all the replies.
Cheers,
Ben
She didn't get to have an 'official chat' with her boss, other than to pass a comment saying she needs to speak to him as there's no way she'll be able to to the advised hours, to which he pretty much ignored apparently. But anyway.....
It doesn't appear that it's going to be as bad as she thought. They shut the shop at 18:00 on Saturday (which was actually earlier than usual!) as there were no customers. She didn't get a break all day but it's probably more down to her not asking.
Sunday they did 11:00 - 17:00, which are usual hours.
So, it looks like it's pretty much the same as usual except no day off for a 2 or 3 weeks but she can cope with this as long as they aren't 11 hour days.
I'm still going to encourage her to look into the mobile option, or at least moving on somewhere else.
Thanks for all the replies.
Cheers,
Ben
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