Rover V8 EFI wont run pulling my hair out now!!!
Discussion
Good afternoon new member here,
firstly sorry for hi-jacking your forum but I was very impressed with members assistance to some one with a problem like mine in an earlier post.
I have a range rover classic 1988 with a v8 EFI flapper system in it that I have been restoring, (not getting to much assistance on rover site).
when I bought it the engine has been rebuilt with shells, rings etc I have been doing body repairs then thought it was time to try and start it for the first time the other day only to find it pops and bang but it will not run,
I have so far done a compression check getting around 150-180 PSI, put in fresh petrol, it has a new fuel pump, dizzy cap/rotor arm new leads and distributor module fitted on distributor (old one was 2 pin new one 3 pin) new plugs. After some testing I found the main relay next to ECU is not pulling in properly so this has also been replaced. when cranking it tries to fire the knocks back if that's the right word as though the timing is out, I have moved the distributor but it does not make a lot of difference, have had a timing light on and it appears to be firing between 6 degrees and TDC bit awkward to look at at cranking speed,
I have done all the diagnostic checks in the manual and all seems to check out I have approx. 35 psi fuel pump pressure but although its coughing and spitting it will not run. I have power going into the power capacitor and a voltage at each of the 8 wires coming out for the injectorsI also have 12 volts at each injector plug, but I cannot hear any click when I swiftly operate the throttle butterfly, if I operate the flap in the air flow unit I can hear the fuel pump run, I have checked the timing again and again and I am now close to the point of despair can any one tell me how I can tell if the injectors are firing, (the cold start injector does not fire during cranking)
I am close to the point of stripping the engine down, my initial thought was camshaft timing but with the rocker box off no1 valves are both closed on compression stroke so now not sure, my other fault is ECU faulty but don't want to fork out for replacement if I'm not sure, have a big blue spark at coil HT and sparking at plugs. I was also wondering as it has not been started for around 18 months whether the fuel has gummed up the injectors, now getting to the point I'm worried about burning the starter motor out any help/idea's greatly appreciated
thanks all
firstly sorry for hi-jacking your forum but I was very impressed with members assistance to some one with a problem like mine in an earlier post.
I have a range rover classic 1988 with a v8 EFI flapper system in it that I have been restoring, (not getting to much assistance on rover site).
when I bought it the engine has been rebuilt with shells, rings etc I have been doing body repairs then thought it was time to try and start it for the first time the other day only to find it pops and bang but it will not run,
I have so far done a compression check getting around 150-180 PSI, put in fresh petrol, it has a new fuel pump, dizzy cap/rotor arm new leads and distributor module fitted on distributor (old one was 2 pin new one 3 pin) new plugs. After some testing I found the main relay next to ECU is not pulling in properly so this has also been replaced. when cranking it tries to fire the knocks back if that's the right word as though the timing is out, I have moved the distributor but it does not make a lot of difference, have had a timing light on and it appears to be firing between 6 degrees and TDC bit awkward to look at at cranking speed,
I have done all the diagnostic checks in the manual and all seems to check out I have approx. 35 psi fuel pump pressure but although its coughing and spitting it will not run. I have power going into the power capacitor and a voltage at each of the 8 wires coming out for the injectorsI also have 12 volts at each injector plug, but I cannot hear any click when I swiftly operate the throttle butterfly, if I operate the flap in the air flow unit I can hear the fuel pump run, I have checked the timing again and again and I am now close to the point of despair can any one tell me how I can tell if the injectors are firing, (the cold start injector does not fire during cranking)
I am close to the point of stripping the engine down, my initial thought was camshaft timing but with the rocker box off no1 valves are both closed on compression stroke so now not sure, my other fault is ECU faulty but don't want to fork out for replacement if I'm not sure, have a big blue spark at coil HT and sparking at plugs. I was also wondering as it has not been started for around 18 months whether the fuel has gummed up the injectors, now getting to the point I'm worried about burning the starter motor out any help/idea's greatly appreciated
thanks all
thanks for all your help to date ..
have again checked the distributor definitely pointing to no 1 at tdc, valves both shut, I put a pressure gauge in the cold start injector fuel line pressurised it then pulled the fuel pump relay and cranked the engine with one injector plugged in others unplugged I watched the pressure gauge tick slowly down so guessing the injectors are firing although I cant hear them ticking, agree it definitely sounds like timing out but it checks out, bit the bullet tonight and pulled the timing chest off to check valve timing and unfortunately for me it seems spot on thought I was onto something... need to double check crank pulley timing marks against piston now also need to order new gaskets so will keep you all updated when I get it back together. will also check the wire at AFM
have again checked the distributor definitely pointing to no 1 at tdc, valves both shut, I put a pressure gauge in the cold start injector fuel line pressurised it then pulled the fuel pump relay and cranked the engine with one injector plugged in others unplugged I watched the pressure gauge tick slowly down so guessing the injectors are firing although I cant hear them ticking, agree it definitely sounds like timing out but it checks out, bit the bullet tonight and pulled the timing chest off to check valve timing and unfortunately for me it seems spot on thought I was onto something... need to double check crank pulley timing marks against piston now also need to order new gaskets so will keep you all updated when I get it back together. will also check the wire at AFM
Oh!!
also squirted fuel into the cold start injector hole still just coughed and banged about like the timing was out, guessing the new timing gears that were fitted are marked up ok, crankshaft keyway is around 1 o clock position camshaft keyway around 9 o clock position,, could it be as suggested injectors gone bad or is it possible for the distributor to play up internally and send bad signals even though it has a new module and the pick up coil checks out on tests?
also squirted fuel into the cold start injector hole still just coughed and banged about like the timing was out, guessing the new timing gears that were fitted are marked up ok, crankshaft keyway is around 1 o clock position camshaft keyway around 9 o clock position,, could it be as suggested injectors gone bad or is it possible for the distributor to play up internally and send bad signals even though it has a new module and the pick up coil checks out on tests?
wuckfitracing said:
Dont wish to teach you to suck eggs.Just trying to help. But are you sure its on the compression stroke . Could you feel the compression via the plug hole as you turned it to TDC.
don't worry all help/ suggestions greatly appreciated !!got the missus to stick her finger in the plug hole whilst I turned crank and I heard the air squeeze past he finger I also double checked turning it again and I believe the exhaust valve is open when its 180 out
update on yesterday!!!!!
right after stripping off timing chest and finding all in order I have today removed sump due to water going in from timing case and gasket torn I thought the oil smelt petrol it was new oil last week. re-assembled most bits have not put rad back in yet for easier access, checked and re - checked timing I am in the region of 12 degrees to TDC with dizzy loose, new oil try again cranked over and its trying to fire but wont pick up smelt plenum /AFM intake can smell petrol remove number 1 plug definitely petrol on it not sure if its to much or not !!
I then think I will go back through the fuel injection test as laid out in the manual all is going fine until I get to test7 injector test (resistance check) I carry out test with ECU unplugged ignition off connect ohmmeter to pin14 on ECU plug and pin 87 on main relay I get open circuit 000 on meter - It should be 7-10K I then check all the other 7 injectors ,,,,, all the same, if I unplug injectors as test said it goes back to infinity 1 on the screen , is it logical that all 8 injector windings have gone down or should I be looking at something else, I'm sure they was within range last time I tested only difference I have purchased a decent meter and replaced main relay.
would this be my problem any ideas gratefully received this is my first experience with EFI
right after stripping off timing chest and finding all in order I have today removed sump due to water going in from timing case and gasket torn I thought the oil smelt petrol it was new oil last week. re-assembled most bits have not put rad back in yet for easier access, checked and re - checked timing I am in the region of 12 degrees to TDC with dizzy loose, new oil try again cranked over and its trying to fire but wont pick up smelt plenum /AFM intake can smell petrol remove number 1 plug definitely petrol on it not sure if its to much or not !!
I then think I will go back through the fuel injection test as laid out in the manual all is going fine until I get to test7 injector test (resistance check) I carry out test with ECU unplugged ignition off connect ohmmeter to pin14 on ECU plug and pin 87 on main relay I get open circuit 000 on meter - It should be 7-10K I then check all the other 7 injectors ,,,,, all the same, if I unplug injectors as test said it goes back to infinity 1 on the screen , is it logical that all 8 injector windings have gone down or should I be looking at something else, I'm sure they was within range last time I tested only difference I have purchased a decent meter and replaced main relay.
would this be my problem any ideas gratefully received this is my first experience with EFI
thanks all..
yes I prob have the ohmmeter on the wrong setting I had it on 20K as the book said 7-10k, will put it down to 200
the other thing that confuses me is reading that the voltage gets dropped from 12v to 3volt at the resistor pack my resistor pack checks out on the resistance side of 6ohms on each terminal from the 12volt feed but I get 12volt in with ignition on and 12 volt out to each injector and 12 volt at each injector plug
yes I prob have the ohmmeter on the wrong setting I had it on 20K as the book said 7-10k, will put it down to 200
the other thing that confuses me is reading that the voltage gets dropped from 12v to 3volt at the resistor pack my resistor pack checks out on the resistance side of 6ohms on each terminal from the 12volt feed but I get 12volt in with ignition on and 12 volt out to each injector and 12 volt at each injector plug
Hi,
thanks for that info I'm learning every day!!
so if I connect up the ECU, resistor pack and plug back on injectors should the voltage at injector plug then read 3 volt,
hi all,
I also have a relay mounted near AFM and the spring turret can anyone tell me the correct model of this relay (can only find info on carburettor overrun model) I have a standard one in there ie: live/neutral to switch soleniod and pin 30 then connects to pin 87. I'm unsure what this does but I am thinking it supplies coil negative to ECU.
thanks for that info I'm learning every day!!
so if I connect up the ECU, resistor pack and plug back on injectors should the voltage at injector plug then read 3 volt,
hi all,
I also have a relay mounted near AFM and the spring turret can anyone tell me the correct model of this relay (can only find info on carburettor overrun model) I have a standard one in there ie: live/neutral to switch soleniod and pin 30 then connects to pin 87. I'm unsure what this does but I am thinking it supplies coil negative to ECU.
Right .. thankyou very much for your assistance..
have carried out your test recommendation and found as follows:
injector:
1- 0.1 volt but can be heard clicking
2 - 3.38 volt
3- 3.45 volt
4- 3.-56 volt
5 -3.6 volt
6- 3.44 volt
7 -3.4 volt
8 -0.3 volt but can be heard clicking
also smelt a bit of fuel whilst testing, people say if I operate the throttle swiftly I will hear the injectors click unfortunately I don't..
just a thought wondering if there is an internal fault in the distributor although the resistance check match up and it has a new module on..
found in the workshop manual they have some pin number errors!!
any ideas were to go from here
have carried out your test recommendation and found as follows:
injector:
1- 0.1 volt but can be heard clicking
2 - 3.38 volt
3- 3.45 volt
4- 3.-56 volt
5 -3.6 volt
6- 3.44 volt
7 -3.4 volt
8 -0.3 volt but can be heard clicking
also smelt a bit of fuel whilst testing, people say if I operate the throttle swiftly I will hear the injectors click unfortunately I don't..
just a thought wondering if there is an internal fault in the distributor although the resistance check match up and it has a new module on..
found in the workshop manual they have some pin number errors!!
any ideas were to go from here
SEvans said:
One other thought when reading through this... If the injectors are open or not shutting off you could have an over fuel issue. Once the plugs are wet then maybe they won't fire. I would disconnect the fuel supply, put in a new set of plugs and spray in some Easy Start and see if it runs. Cheers Steve
Thanks stuck in the office at present will get some when I get out tomorrowthanks again,
right went through everything you put on last reply no shorts between wiring etc found faults on 1 and 8 now reading 3.6volts and 3.56 volts
so am I right in thinking that the injection system is working ok? when cranking car wants to go can smell smoke from exhaust, firing but not picking up, I'm certain engine timing is ok (ie number 1 is firing on no1 compression stroke) within a few degrees need it to run to set spot on, so guessing now need to check ECU, I believe the wire from coil neg goes via a relay and triggers the ECU this checked out on continuity test cant see any resistors or anything in that line, still not 100 per cent about distributor even though I have put a new module on it and I'm getting a spark would the pick up be firing in the wrong position ? have set air gap etc. also starter motor is now getting very fed up,, eaze start!
I know this car ran very sweetly before I got it the guy took it off the road and started to restore it then I took it over
right went through everything you put on last reply no shorts between wiring etc found faults on 1 and 8 now reading 3.6volts and 3.56 volts
so am I right in thinking that the injection system is working ok? when cranking car wants to go can smell smoke from exhaust, firing but not picking up, I'm certain engine timing is ok (ie number 1 is firing on no1 compression stroke) within a few degrees need it to run to set spot on, so guessing now need to check ECU, I believe the wire from coil neg goes via a relay and triggers the ECU this checked out on continuity test cant see any resistors or anything in that line, still not 100 per cent about distributor even though I have put a new module on it and I'm getting a spark would the pick up be firing in the wrong position ? have set air gap etc. also starter motor is now getting very fed up,, eaze start!
I know this car ran very sweetly before I got it the guy took it off the road and started to restore it then I took it over
Toltec said:
I can see you have checked that you have checked that cylinder one is timed up correctly on the dizzy, are you sure the rest of the leads are in the correct order?
hi, yes even had the wife watch over me as we went through them all to make sure I wasn't loosing the plot (but I think I am now
jensencars said:
have been confined to office for 2 days due to phone conference calls (work from home) also starter has fried so awaiting new one I'm out and about tomorrow picking some up
have also been getting educated by some very nice people on here I now understand the injection system a lot better350zwelgje said:
A notorious sensor I have not yet read about, is the coolant temperature sensor. It is the one closest to the plenum.
Probably you checked this based on the checks&list that you used, but...
If this sensor is not ok, which happens with old and even new out of the box, it can make the ECU over-fuel due to this wrong signal (too high resistance)!
Simple test is to unplug this sensor and shortcut it (better is a resistor of ???ohm to simulate a warm engine, but short cutting for the test will do) and start the engine. If it will run ok, this sensor is duff.
Another thing is to disconnect the coldstart injector to avoid again over-fueling......
Rob
thanks have had cold start injector disconnected during this but have not bridged the temp sensor yet, it did pass its ohms test but as I have found out this is not always a true test..Probably you checked this based on the checks&list that you used, but...
If this sensor is not ok, which happens with old and even new out of the box, it can make the ECU over-fuel due to this wrong signal (too high resistance)!
Simple test is to unplug this sensor and shortcut it (better is a resistor of ???ohm to simulate a warm engine, but short cutting for the test will do) and start the engine. If it will run ok, this sensor is duff.
Another thing is to disconnect the coldstart injector to avoid again over-fueling......
Rob
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