Is it alignment or something else ????

[fendertele]

Hey guys,


Hoping someone could try and figure out this feeling I'm getting while driving.

rear of the car feels solid and I can feel both the wheels connecting/sitting perfectly on the road.

but at the front end something seems to cause the feeling of the car leaning or a flat tyre at one side, and with each alignment it can switch from left to right side.

been told the geometry of the car is okay no issues with suspension... brand new tyres.. all inflated equally... and when I park the car and look at it head on neither side is sitting higher or lower... so it is purely a sensation I get when driving and the fact it can switch from side to side with each alignment readjustment tells me that it is linked to something being done during this process.

thanks for any advice.

[fendertele]

GreenV8S said:

It's hard to make sense of the 'feeling' you describe and I wonder whether it may be in your head i.e. that you have got the idea there may be a problem and now your subconscious is trying to justify that. This is supported by the way you feel that the problem changes when you have the alignment checked - I assume the checks didn't find any significant problems with the alignment since you didn't mention them.

Sorry I didn't go into much detail, when I initially got the car is was veering to the right when the steering wheel was held centered, after a few alignments being unable to get it right. One well respected and knowledgeable guy told me the rear needed shimmed and the front end needed camber bolts to get I back in spec.

I paid for this work and although I immediately felt a huge improvement when I was driving the car it felt like the front left had a flat tyre/lean I took it back for a second check and he asked me to centre the wheel this time and then made a few adjustments and when I drove off this time it felt like the car was now leaning/flat trye on the front right side.

So I was just wondering could too much positive camber on one side cause this sensation when driving ? even if it isn't a massive amount ? or uneven tie rod lengths ? because he is certain this car is now perfectly aligned and as I know the tyres are brand new also ( put new ones on before the work was done).

Another way I could describe the feeling is similar to when you leave the car parked up a few nights with the road crowning when you go to drive off it feels a bit flat on the side the car was leaning.

And this is most noticeable when I take roundabouts... whatever side i'm feeling the lean/flat tyre leans more on turns where as the other side feels great taking turns.

hope that gives a better idea

cheers.

Edited by fendertele on Saturday 6th January 18:20

[fendertele]

GreenV8S said:

It's hard to make sense of the 'feeling' you describe and I wonder whether it may be in your head i.e. that you have got the idea there may be a problem and now your subconscious is trying to justify that. This is supported by the way you feel that the problem changes when you have the alignment checked - I assume the checks didn't find any significant problems with the alignment since you didn't mention them.

Sorry I didn't go into much detail, when I initially got the car is was veering to the right when the steering wheel was held centered, after a few alignments being unable to get it right. One well respected and knowledgeable guy told me the rear needed shimmed and the front end needed camber bolts to get I back in spec.

I paid for this work and although I immediately felt a huge improvement when I was driving the car it felt like the front left had a flat tyre/lean I took it back for a second check and he asked me to centre the wheel this time and then made a few adjustments and when I drove off this time it felt like the car was now leaning/flat trye on the front right side.

So I was just wondering could too much positive camber on one side cause this sensation when driving ? even if it isn't a massive amount ? or uneven tie rod lengths ? because he is certain this car is now perfectly aligned and as I know the tyres are brand new also ( put new ones on before the work was done).

Another way I could describe the feeling is similar to when you leave the car parked up a few nights with the road crowning when you go to drive off it feels a bit flat on the side the car was leaning.

And this is most noticeable when I take roundabouts... whatever side i'm feeling the lean/flat tyre leans more on turns where as the other side feels great taking turns.

hope that gives a better idea

cheers.

Edited by fendertele on Saturday 6th January 18:23

[fendertele]

GreenV8S said:

Your references to 'leaning' and 'flat tyre' seem to be interpretations of the symptoms and not the actual symptoms. Clearly the car wasn't actually leaning and didn't have a flat tyre. What are the actual symptoms? Also, specifically what adjustments were made which made you feel the symptoms had changed?

That's exactly it the car doesn't have a flat tyre nor does it sit lower/lean as when I park up the car I no longer feel it, I only feel it when driving.. I have no idea what was actually adjusted beyond he need to shim the rear and adjust the front with camber bolts, I didn't see any hunter/supertracker equipment I believe he is old school he is very well recommended as they do rally cars etc.. and when I even suggested it was off a little got very defensive.

I feel there is still a slight steer to the right but he told me that was just the torque, another thing I have noticed when I come out of a turn it feels likes the tire scuffs when straightening up.

but these things don't bother me as much as the feeling of the car not sitting evenly tire to tire when driving.

I know I sound mad but I have driven cars perfectly aligned and had no issues I have also driven cars in the past where I have felt something similar one in particular has the seem feeling at the back end and was caused by hitting the back left in a big pothole and it forever felt like the back right side was leaning/flat.

Edited by fendertele on Saturday 6th January 18:48

[fendertele]

sorry if this is sounding a bit crazy but I just know something aint quite right at the front end, I will book in with another place with the hunter setup to verify the work that's just been done and hopefully they maybe spot something just out a little bit that might get to the bottom of this.

thanks

[fendertele]

E-bmw said:

What you need to do is to try different roads & see if this affects the feeling as from what you describe it could equally just be the road having a more/less pronounced crown.

just took it a drive there and what I noticed is i'm slowing down heavily when I come to bumpy roads a lot, reason being I'm unsure how the car is going to react going over them... don't get me wrong the car is a lot better than it was before taking it to him but something just feels off and slightly unstable.

I will report back once I've taken it into a hunter 4 wheel place, I just hope that the shim work and camber bolts won't make it a problem for the next guys.

I forgot to mention he did say he was going to toe in the back for better stability cornering and I have noticed my car doesn't want to slide out at the back as much so I think the back end is bang on just that something is off at the front...

[fendertele]

GreenV8S said:

What on earth does this mean? Are you actually breaking traction on the rear wheels, or is this 'wanting to slide out' another 'feeling'?

on a flat motorway with the steering wheel held dead centre the car will gradually drive from the inside lane to the outside lane if I don't adjust the steering wheel... but was told this is due to torque. however when I clutch down the car still continues on the same line so not sure what to think of it.

[fendertele]

GreenV8S said:

What on earth does this mean? Are you actually breaking traction on the rear wheels, or is this 'wanting to slide out' another 'feeling'?

can you explain the steering weight on corners thing ?

[fendertele]

HustleRussell said:

The alignment is either in spec or not- the hunter machine will create a print-out, did the mechanic give it to you?

Your description of the symptom isn’t great but it does sound as though something isn’t right. If we can rule out geometry that’s great. It could be the camber or castor is way off because something is bent or there’s a worn bush under there which is allowing excessive movement.

Does the brand and age of the tyres on the axles match? What about the shock absorbers and springs?

I bought the car brand new but from the first time I drove it it felt off.... I took it to the dealership as it is under warranty and when they supplied the print out it was still out and told me they could understand if I was unhappy with it and to bring it back.

I then got in contact with the dealer that supplied me the car asking to swap it and they wouldn't back down about exchanging it and wanted the chance to rectify it.... roll on 8000 miles and countless alignments I got the finance company involved and they offered to fix whatever needed fixed and that is when I visited the most recent guy who told me that the front was out and needed camber bolts and the that rear thrust line was off and needed shimmed.

I expected this time that the car would be driving near perfect with the work that got done and when I drove off it still felt like it was driving slightly to the right... when I questioned this he got a little defensive and told me it is the torque... he never gave a printout and I believe from what I seen in his garage he does it with old school methods as I didn't see any hunter or tracker system setup... but he came very highly recommended but for his good work he is quite expensive but as the finance guys were helping out I decided to go with him.

the car is much improved on what it was like when I brought it too him I can't argue this... but it is still out and I get the feeling it is at the front somewhere..


Sorry forgot to reply to the tyre question all 4 tyres are brand new and the same, I got them put on before he did the fixes.

Edited by fendertele on Saturday 6th January 23:46

[fendertele]

anyways cheers for help guys i'll not ramble on about it and said without proper printouts and going on how it feels it could be anything.

if he has aligned it with some old school method i'm not sure if it would be as accurate as say the hunter machine or not, but I will try seeing what it looks like on a hunter machine without them changing anything and hopefully then I can show what work he has done.

[fendertele]

E-bmw said:

As you say obviously that isn't due to torque steer.

IIRC the "thrust-line" of a car as standard will do exactly what you describe, so it sounds like a non-issue to me but a Hunter check/printout will confirm this.

Well that was why the back was shimmed to fix the thrust line being off, so if it is then that would mean it wasn't corrected quite enough.. but I know he toed both back wheels inwards for better cornering.. he mentioned all cars should have toe inwards at the back for better stability

[fendertele]

Hey everyone just back with a little update.

So for anyone that might not have read the op...

The car felt out of alignment from the moment I got the car.... after many alignments done and it still feeling out, I contacted my finance company who told me to take it to the best guy I knew to fix it and they would foot the bill.

I took it to a guy that I had read good things about that was a bit more expensive but got the job done right.

When I took the car to him, he told me it was way out and that the following work was required to fix it.
( please see the invoice upload for work done)

I still felt it was off when driving it and despite showing him while driving it, he told me the issues I was experiencing was due to torque steer and that the car is bang on... and he would be telling the finance company it was.

So at this point I could tell he was getting a little agitated with me so I decided to just back down and tell him if the car is bang on then it must be me.... at the end of the day he is the professional and i'm just driving the car.

After a day or two driving it a little more I still felt it was off so today I decided to take it to another garage with the hunter wheel alignment system and this is the before and after printout.... the only thing they adjusted was the toe at the front, but they were concerned about the rear total toe, and I've no idea why they didn't adjust the front camber not that I have the camber bolts...

The problem I feel when driving is that the car when I hold the steering wheel centered will drive to the right and an excessive lean when the road is crowing at the front left side.

Edited by fendertele on Wednesday 10th January 18:53

[fendertele]

HustleRussell said:

You aren’t going to get it better than that. It must be in your head!

So it is bang on then ? and it is me being oversensitive to possible camber then ? that's cool just needed it clarified, I don't have any printouts from the original work done he never gave any... just what worked needed done and the invoice... but I know the car was feeling a lot better than when I gave it to him just not bang on...

It does feel better again since the hunter guys fixed the front toe I must admit...

alright I will let it go and just put it down to me being camber sensitive then I am constantly checking the trye pressure as that is how it feels to me but they are always bang on...

cheers.

[fendertele]

Fastpedeller said:

One thing I've had experience of in the past, but a good 'setup guy' should spot is that the steering rack has to be central ie same amount of trackrod into trackrod end on both sides. With the car in straight-ahead this won't necessarily show up on alignment (but the steering wheel will not be straight). It can give an 'odd' feeling, though usually (if at all) only when there is some steering input. It was more likely to happen with older cars where there is a spline on the steering column/steering wheel interface, so it could be incorrect but still have a straight steering wheel.

Yeah well I can confirm I do not feel the lean anywhere near as bad if any when the car is parked up, it is only when I begin to set off and holding the steering wheel.. had described it as something shifting about from one side to the other.

But as you can see by my previous posts i'm awful at describing things... the back feels solid that always feels great it's at the front.... any decent sized bump on the road can shift whatever it is i'm feeling from the front left to the front right... and vice versa... and I've always thought it was tire pressure after the bump but I've checked it isn't that.

So then i thought maybe it is the camber possibly moving as with the camber bolts installed maybe there is some play or slipping...

another thing i have noticed is when it shifts i find myself having to hold the steering wheel every so slightly off centre to keep the car going straight.

So when i feel the issue at the front left side i tend to hold the wheel slightly more to the right to keep straight and when it shifts to the front right side i will be holding the wheel slightly more the left to keep it going straight...

[fendertele]

Fastpedeller said:

One thing I've had experience of in the past, but a good 'setup guy' should spot is that the steering rack has to be central ie same amount of trackrod into trackrod end on both sides. With the car in straight-ahead this won't necessarily show up on alignment (but the steering wheel will not be straight). It can give an 'odd' feeling, though usually (if at all) only when there is some steering input. It was more likely to happen with older cars where there is a spline on the steering column/steering wheel interface, so it could be incorrect but still have a straight steering wheel.

one or two of the alignment guys did re centre the steering wheel taking it off and back on after the alignment.

One of the guys said the alignment was correct but when I mentioned the steering wheel being off centre they said they would take the wheel of and re centred it as the car was tracking good just the wheel wasn't centred correctly.

[fendertele]

Fastpedeller said:

And this is a brand new car? You still haven't said what car it is (unless I missed it )

Seat Toledo 1.6 67 plate sorry i didn't notice i hadn't mentioned in the original post.

Done just under 9000 miles.

Edited by fendertele on Wednesday 10th January 19:51

[fendertele]

HustleRussell said:

If true that’s seriously shoddy practice.

One of the previous guys before getting the work done it.... and the man that did the work listed above did it after i mentioned it was off.

So with the taking the steering wheel off... i'm guessing that isn't the right way to do things by the reply.

When i took it into the hunter place today and centred the wheel before the alignment checks and adjustments would that have fixed any issues that removing the wheel would have caused previously or will i need to get it re centred ?

[fendertele]

I think i'm best to just drive it as it is even if it is a minor annoyance as my lack of knowledge on these things and their willingness to cut corners knowing i won't know the difference aint getting me anywhere lol!

but i appreciate you guys giving me a little more knowledge on these things good to know anyways.

[fendertele]

HustleRussell said:

how would I know what your mechanic did! I can’t believe any mechanic with the first clue would rather remove and refit a steering wheel than correct the toe on the track rods. The wheel wants to be centred to the steering rack, the rack is designed with a straight ahead position.

yeah if i had known then what i do now i would have asked for them to readjust with the wheel centred and not just move the steering wheel.. oh well live and learn eh

[fendertele]

GreenV8S said:

Did you see them do it? It seems pretty unlikely that any professional would be stupid enough to try to do that to center the wheel, is very unlikely to actually be able to correct center the wheel (since the splines are relatively coarse) and the only time it would make sense is to correct the situation where some idiot had previously refitted the wheel in the wrong position.

Never seen them do it but they told me they were going to do it.. i never questioned it as i just thought if the car was aligned right according to them then putting back on the wheel straight would mean it would drive straight with the wheel centred :/ obv i know now that it's the wrong thing to do.