MOT Exemption - Thoughts

[alfaspecial]

My car is (almost) 50 years old. It was 'substantially changed' (heavily modified) just over 30 years ago.
I believe that it qualifies as being exempt from needing an MOT. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/histori...

I 'could' have elected not to have an MOT this year, but I like the thought of an independent expert running an eye over the car - some safety issues can arise progressively so that as the only driver I might not notice (say) slowly deteriorating stopping distances etc.

Now my car, for the Tester, must be one of the quickest MOT tests.
There are lights, indicators, brake lights, horn etc and steering / brakes / handbrakes obviously
But conversely, no bodywork to rust (alloy/grp), no doors, no boot, no windscreen (no wipers/ washers demister etc) and it's far too old for any emissions test etc
'Coz it's an old car, I get it up on ramps and give everything underneath a quick once over when greasing nipples (oooh-er, missus!) as part of it's service schedule.

The only thing it (has occasionally) fails on is the parking brake - old cars (often) get stretched cables and so, as a consequence I always park in gear (it's a habit - I always park in gear, no matter what car I'm driving.)




So I pay £45 to stand around and watch someone test all the simple things that I check at home before the test....... And then put the car on the brake test machine.
Or, should I just go to an MOT station and ask them to test the brakes - give the operator a couple of £ for their time. A 'printed' break test result would 'prove' that I made at least some effort to test basic safety issues (other than the obvious ones; that every motorist should test at home, irrespective of a formal MOT)


Obviously, as my car is MOT exempt I could just save the money.... but there is always that nagging doubt that a slowly arising issue has been missed.

What would PH'ers do in my situation?

[alfaspecial]

Had I been 'in charge' of changes to the MOT system, I'd would have suggested a two tier MOT.

Standard Vehicle MOT for non historic cars (ie new, less than 40 years old)
Historic Vehicle MOT - basic tests - structure, lights, brakes steering etc but no emissions / ABS etc at a reduced rate.
HV MOTs could be carried out by 'basic' garages, rather than specialised MOT stations as part of a service package

[alfaspecial]

HealeyV8 said:

As with all things this is really about money. I costs to create manuals and training for testers to follow and historic vehicles need to be tested to the limits at their time of manufacture. It's easier and more importantly cheaper to train them for modren vehicles only. Those of us with older cars know we have to do the work to find a sympathic tester who won't try and apply modern car testing values to our cars or they would fail.

I think you hit the nail on the head regarding money. 'Old' rules, to which 'old' cars are subject to, are easily open to misinterpretation.
Couple of examples;
On one occasion the tester asked me to start and warm up the car for an emissions test...... my car's 'emissions testing' is limited to visible smoke. Still, it was interesting to see that it was - just about - legal, even for a more modern car.
And once, I was given an advisory re slight play in a rear wheel bearing. Nothing wrong with the bearing - but the splines on the rear axle / wire wheel was a little worn. I could (possibly) have resolved this just by hitting the spinner on harder - although I had a spare wheel (spare to the spare, if that makes sense) painted, newly tyred and ready for fitting. Problem solved.
But the tester 'missed' the possibility of something other than the obvious. Not a criticism - but a tester can only st with the arse that he's got. (If you'll pardon the expression!).


It's a bit of an ask for MOT testers to know 'old' cars, with all their foibles - were an MOT tester to miss something obvious to the owners then the value of an MOT (in the event of a subsequent accident) might be bought into question.

[alfaspecial]

300bhp/ton said:

t.boydy said:

If your 'historic' vehicle is modified, you will need to present it for an MOT.

Not according to The Government.

Here is the relevant document V112, which lists the exempt categories

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...


Checking back on my MOTs for 30 years..... my only failure(s) have been handbrake related (twice since 2005). And to be honest, I know that - it's a simple enough check. Possibly it is better (as in safer) for ME to take responsibility, rather than rely on a once yearly test.

I would rather have a cheaper MOT test - for older vehicles, not needing emissions etc But MOT stations would need to be 'old car sympathetic'* and these getting somewhat more difficult to find.

• By 'sympathetic' I mean aware of rules being applied based on age of vehicle and not a blanket approach

Edited by alfaspecial on Wednesday 20th November 07:43

[alfaspecial]

lowdrag said:

300bhp/ton said:

t.boydy said:

If your 'historic' vehicle is modified, you will need to present it for an MOT.

Not according to The Government.

Which is of course why the DVLA withdrew my V5 and demanded an IVA. The car was modified over 30 years ago but the DVLA used the catch-all phrase "A reconstructed classic vehicle as defined by DVLA guidance". I lost my private plate too. No amount of evidence was supplied, from brochures for the car to testimony from the original builders but they were obdurate.

Hi Lowdrag,
Sorry to hear of your problem with the DVLA.

Might I ask which car? Was it your E-type or (D-type) / XKSS replica ?
Reason I ask is that whilst (obviously) the XKSS was a Lynx or RAM (or whatever) was a replica but you have, from previous postings, rebuilt the E-type at least a couple of times. So possibly that might have fallen foul of the substantially modified rules?

What was the issue?
And when was the problem - critically, was it since the MOT exemption changes?

Or was it perhaps to do with the 'name' on the on the registration document?


The kit car boys had fun and games a decade or so ago.
Particularly 'replicas' eg Cobras.

Many were constructed, MOT'd, taxed etc for decades but the registration document had been left 'unchanged' ie Assuming they used - say - Jaguar running gear, the registration document was unchanged so that the car was registered on the road as a Jaguar (XJ6 or whatever). Clearly this was erroneous. But equally, they could not describe the car as a AC Cobra ('coz that might be deemed to be pretending the car was something when it wasn't).
The 'correct' way of dealing with the registration would be to register the car as (say) a Gardiner Douglas / Southern Roadcraft or even a Jaguar 'sports'.
I think quite a few people were caught out this way.
The authorities 'said' that they gave plenty of notice for owners to correctly re-register their car but those that missed the deadline would have to re-register the car AFTER obtaining an IVA.

You do occasionally see kit cars for sale, taxed and on the road, but with (technically) incorrect documentation. The value of these is far, far less than a correctly registered car because (technically) on taxing the vehicle the document is saying it is something other than what it is.
eg On the road looking like a 'Seven', registered as a Ford Sierra



You've probably discussed this on site many, many times - if so please could you direct me to the thread. Or possibly PM me if you don't want to discuss it in the open.

Once again. Very sorry for you. An IVA is impossible for many older kits/specials/ re-constituted classics.
Try getting a Pur Sang Bugatti through an IVA: you'd have a failure list so long that it would involve cutting down the entire Brazilian Argentinian rain forest!

[alfaspecial]

Thanks for the prompt reply, Lowdrag

So it seems you were 'caught' with the bureaucratic registration nightmare I referred to.........

My car is 50 years old but was modified over 30 years ago. According to the back of the V112 leaflet it qualifies as category R: A vehicle.... registered or manufactured 40 years ago and which has not been substantially changed in the last 30 years.
Interestingly all the other cars of my 'make', about 20 were made, are seemingly all registered as 'Austin Healey'.
eg https://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/lenham/healey... reg 272 YMC is a registered as an Austin

I think mine is technically the only car registered correctly (although the 'How Many Left' site does not recognise the name)


I was passing the Post Office this morning and went in and asked for a V112 (thought I'd impress them by my knowledge of the paperwork!). They'd never heard of a V112 but did know of a Declaration of Exemption from MOT......... (A V112)


I'm only considering my options - the MOT runs out in February, is (free) road taxed until July - but the PO didn't know whether or not I could change to Exempt straight away, whether I'd have to wait until the MOT expired, or whether I'd have to wait until I next came to (free) tax it and make a declaration then - in which case theoretically I could be (illegally) un-MOT'd between Feb & July next year.



I think you implied it's best to avoid trouble with bureaucracy by just keeping quiet.
The authorities usually only hang people who hand them their own rope!


Your XKSS looks great btw.

[alfaspecial]

lowdrag said:

300bhp/ton said:

MoT and Tax exemption aren't the same thing, so you are correct. And the dates are slightly different, thus it is possible to have a vehicle that is MoT exempt, but still needs to pay road tax.

Well, yes and no, because here we are discussing 40+ year-old cars which while not tax exempt are free road tax. If the car is "taxed" that is all it needs when the MOT expires, and the declaration can take place the next time you tax it. Oh, and I forgot to mention earlier, the stupidest part is that here in France the "V5" is for a Lynx XKSS.

Thanks for the info chaps,
300bhp/ton My car is MOT'd until Feb and taxed (exempt) to July. It qualifies I believe, as MOT exempt (over 40+ years old & no substantial mods for 30+ years).

I just want to (if I decide to go down the MOT exempt route) make sure I don't make a rod for my own back. As, unfortunately, Lowdrag did when, as I understand it, he tried to change the V5 name from something that was obviously inaccurate (E-type) to the correct name (Lynx XKSS).

How about this. As I don't use the car over winter perhaps I could SORN it in January and re-tax it (free) in February, ticking the MOT exemption declaration ..... any possible gaps in my logic?

[alfaspecial]

300bhp/ton said:

alfaspecial said:

Thanks for the info chaps,
300bhp/ton My car is MOT'd until Feb and taxed (exempt) to July. It qualifies I believe, as MOT exempt (over 40+ years old & no substantial mods for 30+ years).

I just want to (if I decide to go down the MOT exempt route) make sure I don't make a rod for my own back. As, unfortunately, Lowdrag did when, as I understand it, he tried to change the V5 name from something that was obviously inaccurate (E-type) to the correct name (Lynx XKSS).

How about this. As I don't use the car over winter perhaps I could SORN it in January and re-tax it (free) in February, ticking the MOT exemption declaration ..... any possible gaps in my logic?

Sounds fine, although technically as stated, if it is over 40 years, it automatically qualifies for MoT exemption, so you don't need to do anything and just await the self declaration.

And overall that is the crux of it with all of this. It is all self declaration, there is no official assessment you can go through to determine if a car qualifies or requires an IVA to be road legal or if the modifications mean it isn't exempt.

The only options are submit for an IVA, which means you'll be needing to pass it and register/re-register it or say nothing and continue using it.

The DVLA will not give you a ruling and will only ever offer the 'opinion' of the person you are speaking too. And sadly, if they want to pursue you, they will. Thus there really isn't one simple rule for everyone and every car is a case by case basis.

I contacted the DVLA/DVSA earlier in the year, not specifically about a classic, but about a modified car I want to create. According to the info published it should be fine to retain it's identity and not need an IVA. But the DVLA would not confirm or deny this, even when giving detailed descriptions of what I planned to do. I wanted to ask in advance, as it would be a waste of money to build it first to then see. But the only option they have is to submit it for an IVA, there is no process to actually determine if it needs to be submitted however.

Thanks 300bhp/ton
I think that is the way to go. If I decide to go that route.

The modified/kit car scene has changed beyond all recognition.
Thanks to IVA, gone are the days of building something from scratch. Panel conversions are 'the' thing.

I know someone who has a D-type replica. On (yes) a Triumph Vitesse chassis / engine.
You'd have thought if you were going to 'do' a D-type you'd want a Jaguar basis BUT his reasoning (I think) was that the only way you could do a Jaguar panel conversion would be to butcher a separate chassis Jaguar, such as a XK120 - which obviously would be sacrilege, these days..... so for him a Vitesse chassis was the way to go.
TBH I don't know if he started it or just bought a part finished kit. But I don't think he had any problems re registration. It certainly looks the part in Ecurie Ecosse blue





Some of these panel conversions look pretty good.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... (watch out: photobucket)
http://www.tributeautomotive.com/250swb.html


But unfortunately, for me, it is still 'just' a BMW with a body. A beautiful body.




What's your project? Fascinating to do something original.

[alfaspecial]

lowdrag said:

Already said, but in the day we "found" a brown log book for our respective marque and built what we wanted to build. I've don it years ago, and with the help og the official club authorised person the car was fine. But today, we really have no idea as to where we are. There are so many replica cars out there, and if you want to build a C-type then all you need is an XK120 official log book. I asked the DVLA many years ago if the C-type was classified as an XKC but they said such a definition did not exist, even though there is plenty of proof it did, so an XK120 it is. You are home and dry. But let's move up the scale and think about the people who have taken a DB4, shortened the chassis by 9 inches and recreated a DB4 Zagato. I'd stay rather quiet about it if I was them. How about all the Bentley MK 6 saloons which are now Le Mans replicas. The same reply. The whole thing is a minefield and I was naive enough to believe what I was told only to be kicked severely in the teeth. Lie low, dear friends.

Building cars from a log book: This applies to just about every valuable car....... vintage Bentley / Ferrari / D -types etc Maserati 250F's

You know what they say: Of the 100 made there are only 150 remaining!




A friends father (this is in the 1950s) had (wait for it) 7 Invictas (S types), low chassis in various states of dereliction. Only one was on the road. He'd bought them for pennies as donor cars, just after the war when old cars were just old cars.
Unfortunately, when he moved house he left the derelicts in an attached 'barn', promising the new owner he'd pick them up when he had the space. Of course, the years went by and the new owner, of the house had them taken away as scrap.

A low chassis Invicta - just the engine / gearbox / axles and chassis (the required 7? points) would easily be worth what £250k a throw. Times 6 £1.5million

Still his son, my friend, bought, and still has, a Lotus 11. He paid £250 in 1970-something.

[alfaspecial]

lowdrag said:

I've been following low chassis Invictas for over 30 years hoping to buy one one day. They are now around £1 million, and when I first fell in love they were £75,000. I was offered a replica three years back at £500,000. Unless I win the lottery they will always be out of reach.

Beautiful cars. John's Dad's remaining car was sold many, many years ago to some who tried to rejuvenate the marque. Mike Bristow, in Chippenham. I think he made a number of continuation models such as this one.

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20931/lot/246/
From what you said, £192,000 sounds like a bargain, but then I suppose it is merely a 'continuation' car

The article says says that 68 of the 75 cars manufactured survive..... ie 7 cars are 'lost'
Given that I was told that 6 were scrapped in one go..... it looks like, over the years the survivors must have multiplied! One engine from one chassis becomes one car, the gearbox from the same donor becomes another car. You know the rest.


The seller / creator of this one tried to revive the marque with a modern twist. 2004-2012 S1
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/first-drives/...

Unfortunately, outside of those in the know, the Invicta was not really a 'big' enough name - unlike Bugatti or Bentley.
But then, superlative cars from any era were merely superlative in their time
And time waits for no-man.
And here endeth the lesson!