Daimler 250 V8 engine mods

[dave de roxby]

Hi Folks!

Does anybody know if fuel injection has ever been applied to the old Daimler V8 engines?

I fancy having a go on my old Mk2 250V8 (manual gearbox). Got a complete Rover V8 hot-wire system to play with. Just wondered if anyone has done this before? Can't seem to find anything on the net.

Cheers,

Dave

[dave de roxby]

Thanks for that!

[dave de roxby]

Jalopnik said:

Might be worth posting this in the drag racing section of Motorsport on this site. A couple of other places you might ask it too..

http://www.nsra.org.uk/newforum/

http://www.rodsnsods.co.uk/forum/

Hi, Thanks again. Seems to be some interest in this topic so can we congregate on my thread under Technical / Engines & Drivetrains

[dave de roxby]

a8hex said:

I was an Paul Roach's (RW774) yesterday. There were a few XK engined cars there that he'd done fuel injection for. There was also a Dart and an 250 there, I don't know whether he's done things for them.

Hi, Thanks - I'll check this out. Seems to be some interest in this topic so can we congregate on my other thread under Technical / Engines & Drivetrains

[dave de roxby]

RW774 said:

I personally would put those parts you have in the bin. Start with two ford DIS packs and dump the dissy.Use the carbs as throttle bodies and then look at injector bosses to be welded in the manifold.Then you need to construct a proper airbox to get some cool air in, submersible fuel pump and regulator, fuel lines and injector feed to be constructed.Then a special crank trigger plate designed to be mounted on the solid part of the damper . Bracket made for the sensor, complete with a decent ECU and then construct the wiring harness.The throttle pot needs to run off of one carb, so the linkage should be absolutely bang on otherwise problems will occur.We have a bracket to run the old Ford Zetec throttle pot but I believe these are presently in short supply.
You cannot achieve any benefits if it is still an auto, it will be impossible to map on the rollers, the car will be forever changing down when put under load.Manual box is the way forward. The engine needs to be in excellent condition without issue ,especially without any of the problems with crank seals or smoke.A decent rebuild with some decent compression should do it.
The bottom end of the 2.5 is very strong. The drag boys used to run standard rods and crank, putting up with some 1500BHP output. The rods are Chrome moly I believe.

Thanks, all very interesting! Well, nothing is set in stone at this point but I'm trying to create a professional conversion which I could later offer as a kit, rather than just a one-off even though that might work fine. I really dont want to use the original manifold/carb arrangement in any form and, for me, a multipoint is the way to go. Also want to keep costs reasonable - but maybe you're right about the Rover parts. Just happened to have them kicking about! We'll see. The car I have is a rare manual version with a well rebuilt engine, although I'm considering putting in a more modern 5 speed unit, probably Getrag/ZF. Its good to get reports of the strength of the bottom end, even though its a bit heavy by modern standards. Thanks for your thoughts.

[dave de roxby]

RW774 said:

Hey , I was talking multi point too! .If you have no experience in this field, with respect, don`t waste your time unless it is just a hobby. We have been carring out these mods now for 8 years or so.

Drinking in all you say and acknowledge you have much experience and expertise! Glad to have your contributions. Let me just put things into context. I admit I have no direct experience of designing an injection system from scratch - yet. However, I am a 65 year old retired consultant engineer with so many letters after my name my business cards had to be a foot long! Over the years, I've had more Jags than you can shake a stick at inc 3.8's, V12's, 3.6 and 4.0 litres etc. But I really like the idea of a mildly potent burbling V8 Mk2. And mine just happens to be a really original 1 owner example. So its a bit like the climbing Everest thing - Why?? Well, because its there!! But seriously, I'll give your ideas some real consideration - I'm still on a learning curve here. Nowt's gonna happen in a hurry.

[dave de roxby]

aeropilot said:

dave de roxby said:

I really dont want to use the original manifold/carb arrangement in any form and, for me, a multipoint is the way to go.

Custom made 8 port intake manifold with a Hilborn modular system

See here http://www.hilborninjection.com/product.asp?Id=430...

but that won't really fit with the following

dave de roxby said:

Also want to keep costs reasonable

Edited by aeropilot on Monday 14th September 14:58

More interesting stuff - thanks. The injector bodies are exactly what I had in mind. Just wondering if I could build by own!

[dave de roxby]

aeropilot said:

dave de roxby said:

Just wondering if I could build by own!

Can you cast alloy ?

I know the processes involved and could fabricate the patterns. There are small foundaries available locally which could help. I no longer have personal access to machining facilities but again have contacts with local firms.

[dave de roxby]

As suggested, I'd say in the long run it would be cheaper and certainley less hassle to buy the throttle bodies and associated gubbins from Hilborn or others, and then fabricate a manifold and airbox etc yourself. At least you stand a much better chance of it working out of the box so to speak

Edited by aeropilot on Tuesday 15th September 08:43

[/quote]

Agree! This is the way I want to go. Will be checking prices and availability. Just hope something's within my budget! If not, it'll be back to my engine-uity again. I never give up!

[dave de roxby]

jith said:

dave de roxby said:

As suggested, I'd say in the long run it would be cheaper and certainley less hassle to buy the throttle bodies and associated gubbins from Hilborn or others, and then fabricate a manifold and airbox etc yourself. At least you stand a much better chance of it working out of the box so to speak

Edited by aeropilot on Tuesday 15th September 08:43

I have another suggestion for you Dave, and one that will be well within your budget.

Why don't you consider fitting K-Jetronic to your engine? This was arguably the finest injection system ever made all things considered, and certainly the most reliable.

It is absolutely ideal for a V engine as the fuel metering unit and throttle body is integral and fits neatly in between the heads a la Mercedes. Absolutely everything is available second hand from many sources.

There are minimal electronics, although if you wanted to run it very clean you could fit KE-Jet and stick a lambda sensor in the manifold to run it closed loop. This would give you excellent fuel economy and dead smooth running.

If you want to know how to tune the system there are a number of excellent books available through Amazon.

Your biggest problem would be adapting the unit to an inlet manifold; but if you have access to machinery it should be easily overcome.

Edited by jith on Tuesday 15th September 13:21

Edited by jith on Tuesday 15th September 13:22

Well, now I've really got some thinking to do! Do I remember K-Jetronic on 80's Audi's and my old beloved Scirocco? Believe it had no actual electronics at all. Was a good practical system needing little or no attention. Oh dear, my head is starting to spin! Time for my brandy!!

[dave de roxby]

RW774 said:

You have forgotten the ECU.So how do you map it Jith? who`s going to give you access to the software? Bosch? .Nope .
Also how do you gain access to the ECU . They are all pre set by the factory.
Non starter I`m afraid

Oh my goodness! What have I started? Now I'm not going down this K-Jet route but what about boring the Daimler to 3.0 litres then fitting twin Mk1 Golf Gti systems? Just musing!

[dave de roxby]

On the topic of k-Jetronic, just trying to blow some cobwebs out of my mind but: Wasn' the k-Jet a totally mechanical system without an ECU? I remember struggling with the D-Jetronic on my old 350 SLC then a similar systems on the early V12 Jags which did have ecu's but I thought the Golf Gti and similar Wolfsburg products with K-Jet were just mechanical. Probably wrong! My memory is going. Anyone fancy a pint?

[dave de roxby]

[quote=RW774]Excellent, more ccs,bigger valves and cam it ,


Hey! I take your point. Lets get back to reality 'cos I'm serious here.

[dave de roxby]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the recent replies to my thread. I'm just sitting back and drinking in all the information. There's a lot to learn and consider here. But great to have stimulated a really interesting technical discussion. Thanks to all!
David

[dave de roxby]

Mornin' chaps!

Thanks again for all the various ideas and opinions on my quest to add fuel injection to my old Daimler V8. This debate seems to have sparked a lot of interest and touched a few nerves! It has unearthed some very valid ideas which I had not even thought about. So its been great to 'gas' about this topic.

At the end of the day, I am going to have to make a decision and go down one particular route.

So I am now re-asking myself "Dave, what exactly is it you're trying to achieve here!"

Well -

Firstly, I am committed to keeping my old Mk2 250 V8, no question about this. It's a good example and I have already started dressing it up with chrome wires, Coombes arches, woodrim steering wheel etc etc. I've had several 3.8 Jags over the years, loved them all and know just how far you can go with performance. So I know what this old 60's chassis is capable of. But I always like to be that little bit different - that's just me! And the Daimler is already sitting there! And I really fancy a reasonably potent V8 with a lovely sound track. (Back in the seventies in Central Africa, I had a Sunbeam Tiger with home-built straight through 'silencers' - they could here me coming for miles!)
So I want to squeeze some more performance out of the basic engine and also gain some reliability and maybe some (relative) economy. I want to do this by adding fuel injection. That much is decided.

I feel sure that by adding some modern technology in a properly engineered way, much can be achieved. I am a capable guy in both practical and technical terms but admit I haven't delved into applying fuel injection to a virgin engine project before. But if you knew what I have achieved in life, you'd understand that my current inexperience aint gonna hold me back for long.

The Daimler V8 was only dropped by Jaguar for political/rationalisation reasons at the time. So one line of thought is to try and imagine what Jaguar/Daimler might have done if they had decided to keep the engine in their lineup. Maybe K-jet would have been the way to go.

But if I'm going to do this today in 2009, I might as well go all the way. However, I want the end-product to look like it might have been production-engineered by Daimler - no cobbled-up job for me, even if it does work. I want to ditch the carbs and the original manifold, pretty as it is - I've got one sitting on my desk as we speak! But let's forget about Paxton superchargers, a stack of ram pipes sticking up through the bonnet and the like. I'm not creating a hot-rod!

I am going to investigate the possibility of increasing the capacity but suspect there could be problems including sourcing suitable pistons. If anyone has specific information on this I would be grateful to hear from you. I will do whatever I can to improve the existing heads - I feel sure there is room for gasflow improvement here plus a chance to convert to unleaded if needed.

So that leaves the induction. Right now I am favouring individual injector bodies (either bought in or made-up) topped by a custom-made manifold (or pair of cross-manifolds) plus carefully designed air-box(s) and throttle-body(s). I want an ECU I can play with and ignition system to suit.

You've given me plenty of information and ideas to chew on and I am truly grateful to you all! I've now got a lot of homework and research to do. I'll obviously be letting you know of progress in due course. (As someone famous once said 'I may be some time!')

Thanks again. Have a nice weekend!

David

[dave de roxby]

niva441 said:

As an aside to this topic how difficult would it be to replace the Borg Warner 3 speed automatic with a more modern unit with lock up overdrive top gear? Are there any obvious replacements that would be a relatively straightforward swap.

I looked at one on Friday (bit of a nail, but it got me interested) and would like to know how difficult it would be to make it a bit more suitable for modern motorway cruising.

Thanks

Fortunately for me, my Daimler is one of the rare manual gearbox versions, only 80 or so made, although I am considering replacing that with a modern 5-speed manual.

As far as the automatics are concerned, I can't say for sure. But the Jags used progressively better BW units over the lifetime of the Mk2 range. I guess anything is possible? Hope someone else knows for sure.

[dave de roxby]

If anybody is still interested, further to my thoughts about increasing the capacity of the 2.5 V8, I have just found a factory engineering drawing of the engine and, if it is accurate (which I suspect it is from this era), there seems little or no extra meat to have a go at around the bores. The workshop manual says +40 thou pistons are the max available but, even if I could find some, I think they would be expensive. So I'm stuck with around 2.5 litres max. The valves also look to be as big as the heads will take. So I'm left with gas-flowing the ports. Aside from the inlet system which I plan to completely re-design anyway, one area that looks ripe for attention is the design of the exhaust manifolds. Maybe a few hp to be gained there.

[dave de roxby]

RW774 said:

Dave you need to look outside the box on this one. More research is needed via the old drag car boys.You can bore out the old Jag 2.4 to 3.0 litres, an increase of 125ccs per pot, so I don`t see a problem bore and sleeving the 8 to increase bt 75ccs and designing pistons to suite.

Yep, you're right about the bores. There I go again, opening my mouth before my brain is in gear! But the pistons might be less easy due to pent-top design - of course, anything is possible. Open to advice here.
Dave

[dave de roxby]

mph said:

If you want to keep the pleasant characteristics of the original engine, then there is apparently very little you can do to improve the performance dramatically.

This is directly from the chap who is the acknowledged expert on these engines Russ Carpenter.

Obviously some improvement can be obtained by blueprinting, mildly raising the compression ratio and fitting fuel injection but I doubt it would be worth it financially for a few extra horses.

A manual gearbox would be my preferred option.

I also considered fitting the Majestic Major engine but there isn't much information out there as to how easy the transplant is.

Thanks for that. I'm lucky to have the rare factory manual/overdrive box 250 V8 model but am considering a more modern 5 speed manual box, plenty to choose from. As for the 4.5 Majestic Major engine, have considered this. Although it is obviously from the same family, it is actually bigger and heavier in very respect. The rear end is the same as the 2.5 so theoretically it will bolt to existing gearboxes. But its longer and, more importantly, wider by a few inches. I have heard it can be squeezed into the Mk2 by modifying the inner wings. Prob need different engine mounts, resite radiator etc. But, although initially tempting, think you would end up with too much weight up front which would make it a pig to handle. Siting the engine/box further back would be a major undertaking, even if its dimensionally possible, which I doubt.

[dave de roxby]

Nick_F said:

Would the 4.5 be any heavier than a Jag XK unit?
..

Good thought.