Next Elise - what do you want?
Discussion
Bit disappointed with the response to date. If this was a new Porsche by now we'd have had a hundred posts about contrasting stitching and the need for a colour matched nappa leather willy warmer.
But my thoughts. I'm probably one of the many who would like an Elise but who would find it just too impractical for the way I' d want to use the car and would have an impossible task selling it to the OH - except as my weekend fun car. She'd probably never go in it and certainly not drive it - hence the Alpine.
Clearly existing virues must be retained - steering feel and (for me) the lack of width. It doesn't make sense to go head to head with the Alpine, but some significant improvements in practicality are needed if the Elise is to appeal to a wider audience. The car will need to be a daily driver and/or holiday car for some - at least as a model variant. So:
1) Easier access - not much of an issue to me, I'm small, but it will be for many
2) More luggage space. I'd say 2 aircraft carry on bags plus a few odds and sods. That will almost certainly mean some extra length, which I don't mind so long as width is not affected. It will help with the drag coeffient, which currently is poor by class standards. (circa cd of .4 vs .3 for the opposition)
3) Much more refinement - enough so a decent infotainment system is useable on the motorway. This should be an option - not everyone wants it to be as quiet as the Alpine. Perhaps a seperate model (what the last Europa failed to deliver)
4) Steering needs assistence - so a real dilemma, which I notice Gordon Murray is grappling with for his new T50. Fully manual from (say) 40mph with decreasing assistance up to that speed. But how to engineer that without suffering feel robbing drag from the mechanism, I'll leave to the engineers. The scrubby understeer near full lock which makes the car feel clumsy on mini roundabouts and right angle junctions needs fixing (I don't remember it being so bad on my S1 but was dire on the Sport 220 I drove recently)
5) Engine. Another dilemma. I personally prefer the S220 engine to the turbo of the Alpine - less artificiallity to the noise - and delivers on improved throttle response over the Alpine (which many modern NA engines don't at medium to high revs). However the Alpine engine is much more "effective" - the 0-60 time advantage the Elise Sport 220 has is misleading. At higher speeds the Alpine is faster through the gears and vastly more flexible. The Alpine feels a lot faster car in practise. Economy of the Elise is also pretty poor. The engine needs more midrange to be competitive.
6) weight - no more than existing model spec for spec. If, as rumoured it's going to have a carbon tub it had better be lighter.
7) Trim - the Alpine comes in for some criticism in this area - but is far better than the Elise, so the more luxurious versions need to at least match the Alpine.
8) Again (optionally) similar to the base Alpine - but I would expect things like air con and sat nav to be extra or included in a "luxury" model
9) Price perhaps £50k for the base model if it has the kudos of a carbon tub.
But my thoughts. I'm probably one of the many who would like an Elise but who would find it just too impractical for the way I' d want to use the car and would have an impossible task selling it to the OH - except as my weekend fun car. She'd probably never go in it and certainly not drive it - hence the Alpine.
Clearly existing virues must be retained - steering feel and (for me) the lack of width. It doesn't make sense to go head to head with the Alpine, but some significant improvements in practicality are needed if the Elise is to appeal to a wider audience. The car will need to be a daily driver and/or holiday car for some - at least as a model variant. So:
1) Easier access - not much of an issue to me, I'm small, but it will be for many
2) More luggage space. I'd say 2 aircraft carry on bags plus a few odds and sods. That will almost certainly mean some extra length, which I don't mind so long as width is not affected. It will help with the drag coeffient, which currently is poor by class standards. (circa cd of .4 vs .3 for the opposition)
3) Much more refinement - enough so a decent infotainment system is useable on the motorway. This should be an option - not everyone wants it to be as quiet as the Alpine. Perhaps a seperate model (what the last Europa failed to deliver)
4) Steering needs assistence - so a real dilemma, which I notice Gordon Murray is grappling with for his new T50. Fully manual from (say) 40mph with decreasing assistance up to that speed. But how to engineer that without suffering feel robbing drag from the mechanism, I'll leave to the engineers. The scrubby understeer near full lock which makes the car feel clumsy on mini roundabouts and right angle junctions needs fixing (I don't remember it being so bad on my S1 but was dire on the Sport 220 I drove recently)
5) Engine. Another dilemma. I personally prefer the S220 engine to the turbo of the Alpine - less artificiallity to the noise - and delivers on improved throttle response over the Alpine (which many modern NA engines don't at medium to high revs). However the Alpine engine is much more "effective" - the 0-60 time advantage the Elise Sport 220 has is misleading. At higher speeds the Alpine is faster through the gears and vastly more flexible. The Alpine feels a lot faster car in practise. Economy of the Elise is also pretty poor. The engine needs more midrange to be competitive.
6) weight - no more than existing model spec for spec. If, as rumoured it's going to have a carbon tub it had better be lighter.
7) Trim - the Alpine comes in for some criticism in this area - but is far better than the Elise, so the more luxurious versions need to at least match the Alpine.
8) Again (optionally) similar to the base Alpine - but I would expect things like air con and sat nav to be extra or included in a "luxury" model
9) Price perhaps £50k for the base model if it has the kudos of a carbon tub.
otolith said:
I'd rather a manual, but it will probably need a flappy paddle gearbox as at least an option
I should have mentioned that too. Alpine concluded that the market for manuals was small and even the Evora sells 50% with the auto option. Manual is still essential to maintain the existing fan base.Composite Guru said:
I think they need to stick to the original ethos.
Just don't go turning it into an over refined boredom mobile like the all the other cars on the market.
Up to date styling and better quality parts will see it good as there is nothing wrong with the underpinnings of that car.
Unfortunately that ethos alone doesn't sell enough cars - 274 in total in the UK last year across all models (and that was the best year globally since 2011). A decent dealer base can't be maintained on so few cars. They absolutely must widen their appeal. Caterham sell more 7s than all the Elise/Exige variants put together in the UK!Just don't go turning it into an over refined boredom mobile like the all the other cars on the market.
Up to date styling and better quality parts will see it good as there is nothing wrong with the underpinnings of that car.
giveitfish said:
They sold 3000 a year of the original S1 which was the most basic of the lot, and like you say the more focused Caterham also sells well,
I can see where you’re coming from in your earlier post but none of your requirements would be on my wish list. Room for two carry-on suitcases? More refinement? You’re not even describing an MX5, you’ve gone all the way to a Z4. Sounds like you want an Evora roadster, which would be a fine car but it’s not an Elise.
I'm describing a car that covers more or less where the current Elise is to half way to an Alpine in terms of practicality (the Alpine takes two carry on cases in the front boot and a rear boot is at least as big as that of the Elise). The rear boot of an Elise has the volume for a carry on suitcase - but the limited opening and shape precludes it. Let me put it this way I'm looking for a car the size of my Lotus Europa S2 (not the more recent one) with similar (rather less in fact) boot space. Nothing like the length width or weight of a Z4. Gordon Murray said that the Alpine would be the perfect sports car if it was 4" narrower. I'm not sure I'd entirely agree - steering would need to match the Elise as well, but he's not far off the markI can see where you’re coming from in your earlier post but none of your requirements would be on my wish list. Room for two carry-on suitcases? More refinement? You’re not even describing an MX5, you’ve gone all the way to a Z4. Sounds like you want an Evora roadster, which would be a fine car but it’s not an Elise.
Kenzle said:
Honestly I'd change very little. I love my little Elise.
If I wanted a luxury two-seater with refinement, room for luggage, electric roof etc I would have bought a Z4 or a Boxster.
Not sure why people are assuming that the alternative to an Elise is a Thames barge. The Alpine is already as (actually rather more) refined and well equipped as a Cayman , but smaller and 300+kg lighter. Personally wouldn't consider buying a Z4 which is even heavier. It's all very well saying you like the car as it is (I do too - but only as a weekend toy) but it doesn't sell enough and if you want the brand to continue (I do!) they have give the new model more of what the market demands - as well as keeping the existing customer base on side. If I wanted a luxury two-seater with refinement, room for luggage, electric roof etc I would have bought a Z4 or a Boxster.
sato said:
I agree - the Alpine gets the right balance as far as I am concerned. If it was manual and soft top I'd probably have one by now. But that's also the problem, Alpine have stolen that space now - the market isn't big enough for two very similar cars. Purely from a business perspective a new Elise would have to come up with a different formula.
Don't disagree - the Elise shouldn't go head to head with the Alpine, but doesn't need to. It has some significant advantages that it needs to build on. Steering is much better (at least most of the time), it has a manual gearbox (which the Alpine is unlikely ever to get) and it's significantly narrower and lighter. Highly relevant is the fact that it comes as a convertible -it will take a lot of re-engineering to make the Alpine open. (But that reminds me that the Elise hood needs re-engineering to be easier to use - perhaps replaced with a stowable targa top)I get the impression that some regard "hard core" as part of the DNA of Lotus. It has certainly become part of the DNA of the Elise/Exige but historically Lotus weren't hard core at all (at least once they had passed the 7 onto Caterham). The original Elan and Europa were, by the standards of mainstream sportscars (MG and Triumph) actually quite plush as were subsequent models. It was always Chapman's intention to push Lotus up market. The success of the Elise perhaps encouraged Lotus to go more hard core - but I'm not convinced it was a sensible long-term strategy. Porsche sell halo models like the GT3 on the back of their more mainstream offerings - not as their core business.
Baldchap said:
I have to be honest, having recently bought a Cup 250, until I read a 'what shall I look at thread' on here I had forgotten that Lotus existed!
They need to market their cars more.
On topic, the current Elise is head and shoulders a better car to drive than the Alpine because it has a mechanical connection between driver and car. Power steering and automatic boxes may sell cars to commuters, but they dilute the driving experience and move vehicles ever more towards watching TV vs actually driving.
We have a 2019 RS5 in the house. It's 1.7 tons and awash with 'stuff'. It goes like a stabbed rat and is excellent for blasting across countries. It's well equipped, quiet, smooth and absolutely everything that an Elise categorically should never be.
So what should the new Elise be like? We'll, sales volumes aside, like the current one is my answer.
Defo stay supercharged, not turbocharged. The throttle response is needed for blipping on downshifts.
While I don't really disagree with your drift - and on a sunny day down the right road I'd prefer the Sport 220 I recently drove over my Alpine - but imo you overstate the case. Have you actually driven an A110? Many who have conclude that the power steering and lack of manual don't really matter half as much as you (or I) think they might - the car is still a hoot to drive. If I could justify an Elise as a weekend/track car in addition to an Alpine (for the rest of the time, holidays, boring long journeys), I'd buy one - but I can't. That is the problem Lotus face.They need to market their cars more.
On topic, the current Elise is head and shoulders a better car to drive than the Alpine because it has a mechanical connection between driver and car. Power steering and automatic boxes may sell cars to commuters, but they dilute the driving experience and move vehicles ever more towards watching TV vs actually driving.
We have a 2019 RS5 in the house. It's 1.7 tons and awash with 'stuff'. It goes like a stabbed rat and is excellent for blasting across countries. It's well equipped, quiet, smooth and absolutely everything that an Elise categorically should never be.
So what should the new Elise be like? We'll, sales volumes aside, like the current one is my answer.
Defo stay supercharged, not turbocharged. The throttle response is needed for blipping on downshifts.
CABC said:
bcr, did you see Harry's garage? he proposed the Evora 410 rather than the A110. i love both, but i can see the allure of the Evora now - it's been finely honed over 10 yrs and feels resolved. My GT86 will be replaced by an Alpine/Evora/Supra/Mustang/MX5. that's a mixed list and depends on my mood. Not afraid of mods, the Skyactive MX5 with 220 and coilovers is quite a proposition. thread drift.... Elise, my best car ever. as is.
I see the 400 has now been discontinued and the 410 starts at £90k - probably nearer 100k with some extras. Difficult to justify that much new.
Edited by bcr5784 on Monday 22 July 09:17
ash73 said:
Nobody cares about small lightweight sports cars outside the UK. The reason we care is we used to see them race every week at local circuits or on telly; that's what sold 911s, Escort Cosworths, Caterhams, etc. If he wants to create a market either go racing (and win!), or get some product placement in a programme on telly (or a film). Make it cool to own one!
Adding tat to appeal to the Chinese is a fundamental mistake, imo.
Not entirely true - the Japanese are mad keen on both Caterhams and Alpines. They had to run a lottery for who would get one of the 50 Premier Edition Alpines. They stopped people subscribing when 1000 people applied! Japan looks likely to eventually become the second biggest market for Alpines (after France).Adding tat to appeal to the Chinese is a fundamental mistake, imo.
CABC said:
bcr5784 said:
Personally I preferred the Alpine's lack of mass,
i fully recognise that aspect, which is why the Elise has the most secure slot in my garage! otolith said:
Some actual weights here, though nothing recent.
https://wiki.seloc.org/a/Elise_weight
Would be interesting to know how much this saved;
The cost savings started instantly with Gales setting up a 'lightweight laboratory'; he put every component used in building a Lotus on a large table, and attached price and weight tags, with the aim of reducing both. Many parts were re-engineered either internally or by Lotus suppliers, and savings of five to 10 per cent were made
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/best-of-bri...
It was nice to see that Lotus are focussing on light weight seriously, but it does seem they are still coy about quoting DIN weights - hence the question. Apparently since WLTP new cars will come with itheir WLTP weight - which includes all the options you specify. Should stop all the manufacturers playing fast and loose with figures.https://wiki.seloc.org/a/Elise_weight
Would be interesting to know how much this saved;
The cost savings started instantly with Gales setting up a 'lightweight laboratory'; he put every component used in building a Lotus on a large table, and attached price and weight tags, with the aim of reducing both. Many parts were re-engineered either internally or by Lotus suppliers, and savings of five to 10 per cent were made
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/best-of-bri...
highway said:
I drove a 220 at the weekend (and a 250 Cup) back to back with my S1 111S. Remarkable how the new cars retain so much Elise DNA. The new cars deal with bumps without leaving you wanting to wince. They feel much more substantial. Still great steering (though the wheel isn’t pretty) and far better brake pedal feel than the S2’s I owned.
Throttle response isn’t as immediate as a k series car. You also need to have ‘sport’ engaged as without the throttle response really feels blunted.
I can’t see the next Elise being anything other than a Boxster rival. Nothing else would make commercial sense.
Interesting comment about throttle response - I knew things had gone down hill since emissions ruled. There is a lot of nonsense talked about the throttle response of NA cars - it's not a given. I did find the response of the 220 good - much better than my 981 Cayman - but not as good (from memory) as (say) the original Cooper S. Kangaroo petrol is pretty much unobtainable these days - though I did find an (oldish) Caterham with some.Throttle response isn’t as immediate as a k series car. You also need to have ‘sport’ engaged as without the throttle response really feels blunted.
I can’t see the next Elise being anything other than a Boxster rival. Nothing else would make commercial sense.
As you say, for commercial success, the Boxster must be a major target. However the new Elise will need a lot more refinement for success against it - it's actually a tad quieter (roof up) than its coupe sibling. Manage that level of refinement there is no reason why a new Elise can't pinch sales from both the Alpine and Cayman too.
ash73 said:
Pointless imo; folk who want a Porsche will always buy a Porsche. The Elise should be the Alpine's dirty little sister.
Not all Porsche owners are brand fanatics - quite a few of us have switched to Alpines and some of us would really like to buy Lotus, given the right car. Some will have gone Alpine because Lotus was (or had become due to change of circumstances) too compromised for them. Some (like me) will have gone the other way because the Cayman wasn't as much fun as they hoped. Not all Porsche owners are the same!Zarco said:
Is the Alpine as refined as the Boxster/Cayman? My gut feel is not.
It's actually MORE refined - and I've owned both and driven them back to back. Measured by Autocar on a smooth surface the Alpine is a couple of db quieter, but on a coarse motorway the Alpine has far less tyre noise (the achilles heal of the Cayman, but rarely mentioned in road tests). It's perfectly pleasant to listen to music at 3 figure speeds in the Alpine - not so in the 981 Cayman. (in Germany of course)Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 25th July 08:43
Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 25th July 08:51
otolith said:
But the Alpine is 20% heavier than even the S3 Elise. And for a properly refined car you need more than just a couple of hundred kgs of sound deadening, you also want to look at things like the trade offs in suspension bushes.
That is why I asked the question about weight - Lotus have played fast and loose with weights - Alpine haven't. Spec for spec I doubt it's more than 10% lighter The PE has been weighed many times and comes within a few kg (over or under) of it's quoted 1105kg DIN weight- that is with a full tank, tools and fully equipped with dual clutch box, power steering, climate control, a good sounding infotainment system, mats, electic folding mirrors, cruise control, auto lights and wipers and a level of trim which is in a different league to the current Elise.It's not rocket science - Alpine have just been religious about applying Chapman's "adding lightness" mantra. Lotus can do the same and if they make a smaller car, probably with a carbon tub to replace the aluminium one (as rumoured), they should be able to do better on weight. Part of Lotus's problem are the engines - they are heavy lumps. I'm not sure what alternatives Geely can make available.
Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 25th July 08:41
Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 25th July 08:43
otolith said:
Working back from what Lotus says the power to weight ratio is, it looks like about 930kg for the current Elise. Which sounds about right,
.
Of course it would agree - lotus are using their own quoted weight and power. But if the real world (DIN) weight is greater the power to weight becomes correspondingly less. If, as I suspect the 930kg is without fuel 30kg) , aircon (20kg?) , radio (7kg?), carpets and soundproofing (20kg?) you are over 1000kg already - hence my question..
Gassing Station | Elise/Exige/Europa/340R | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff