Exige MOT failed - garage unable to jack the car up
Discussion
Hi all.
My Exige V6 went in for an MOT test today at a local garage.
It strictly didn't need one until late December this year due to the covid extension, but I wanted to do it to keep both my cars around the same time.
The garage aren't a lotus specialist, just a regular shop with an MOT testing section. I mentioned while booking that the car might not be great with ramps and they said it'd be fine and mentioned they'd not use the brake rollers becausethe car might be too low to safely drive onto/off them. There are other ways of testing brakes. Great, I said. They put blanking plates on the rollers and popped the car on the 4-post lift.
Everything was going as expected until the part where they needed to get the rear wheels off the ground to check for wheel bearing problems or similar.
They weren't able to jack the rear of the car up without the front wheels coming off the ramps, effectively making the car very unstable, like a seesaw.
The reason for this appears to me that they were using the jack points at the rear part of the doors (jacking point A on the diagram) to try to get the back of the car off the ground; these are meant for jacking one side of the car off the floor at a time, not to pick up the car. See image for info.
The tester started to get bottlejacks out, in his words "to jack up the car on the rear suspension". At that point I stopped him.
Jacking up the car on the suspension members is very unadvisable. See manual for Lotus info on it.
I didn't want the car damaged so in order to get the car back, I paid and left with a certificate the tester handed me.
I didn't actually read it until I got home.
On reading it, the car now has a failed MOT for "inspection may be dangerous or cause damage" and "unable to jackup rear of vehicle safely".
Because the car was in a covid-related MOT extension, today's failed MOT test result apparently means it immediately has no valid MOT and can no longer be driven freely until it has a valid MOT. The extension is no longer valid.
I wasn't aware this was a possibility -- if you have a normal MOT and take the car in for an additional one the original remains valid (as far as I know -- please correct me if this is wrong!).
To say I'm annoyed would be a massive understatement.
Calling the DVSA to try to discuss it leads to a 6 minute long automated voice talking about IVA and then a 20 minute hold with crap music before I gave up because (1) life's too short, and (2) it's getting close to closing time anyway.
If I'd simply chosen a garage able to deal with jacking the exige properly I'm sure this car would have passed its MOT.
Has anyone else come across this before?
My Exige V6 went in for an MOT test today at a local garage.
It strictly didn't need one until late December this year due to the covid extension, but I wanted to do it to keep both my cars around the same time.
The garage aren't a lotus specialist, just a regular shop with an MOT testing section. I mentioned while booking that the car might not be great with ramps and they said it'd be fine and mentioned they'd not use the brake rollers becausethe car might be too low to safely drive onto/off them. There are other ways of testing brakes. Great, I said. They put blanking plates on the rollers and popped the car on the 4-post lift.
Everything was going as expected until the part where they needed to get the rear wheels off the ground to check for wheel bearing problems or similar.
They weren't able to jack the rear of the car up without the front wheels coming off the ramps, effectively making the car very unstable, like a seesaw.
The reason for this appears to me that they were using the jack points at the rear part of the doors (jacking point A on the diagram) to try to get the back of the car off the ground; these are meant for jacking one side of the car off the floor at a time, not to pick up the car. See image for info.
The tester started to get bottlejacks out, in his words "to jack up the car on the rear suspension". At that point I stopped him.
Jacking up the car on the suspension members is very unadvisable. See manual for Lotus info on it.
I didn't want the car damaged so in order to get the car back, I paid and left with a certificate the tester handed me.
I didn't actually read it until I got home.
On reading it, the car now has a failed MOT for "inspection may be dangerous or cause damage" and "unable to jackup rear of vehicle safely".
Because the car was in a covid-related MOT extension, today's failed MOT test result apparently means it immediately has no valid MOT and can no longer be driven freely until it has a valid MOT. The extension is no longer valid.
I wasn't aware this was a possibility -- if you have a normal MOT and take the car in for an additional one the original remains valid (as far as I know -- please correct me if this is wrong!).
To say I'm annoyed would be a massive understatement.
Calling the DVSA to try to discuss it leads to a 6 minute long automated voice talking about IVA and then a 20 minute hold with crap music before I gave up because (1) life's too short, and (2) it's getting close to closing time anyway.
If I'd simply chosen a garage able to deal with jacking the exige properly I'm sure this car would have passed its MOT.
Has anyone else come across this before?
stevemcs said:
was it on a ramp or on a 4 post (drive on ramp) ours is a 4 post and we have a sliding jack that moves front to rear and we can always put wood under the wheels to give us extra room. The rear would only need to come off the ground to check bearings and tyres for cuts.
As for the MOT, yes its correct that if they fail they cannot be used on the road until repairs are carried out, however given yours hasn't actually failed given the tester wasn't able to continue the test maybe they should have aborted the test. The problem is once they have logged on its time to pass or fail it. They could have carried on with the test, checked everything else then moved it to a different ramp such as a 2 post lift to check the rear, it might have worked as a fail and then pass but at least you would have an MOT.
This type.As for the MOT, yes its correct that if they fail they cannot be used on the road until repairs are carried out, however given yours hasn't actually failed given the tester wasn't able to continue the test maybe they should have aborted the test. The problem is once they have logged on its time to pass or fail it. They could have carried on with the test, checked everything else then moved it to a different ramp such as a 2 post lift to check the rear, it might have worked as a fail and then pass but at least you would have an MOT.
I've cropped out the name of the garage (I'm not asking about this for name & shame reasons, they seem nice enough people).
I've blotted out the numberplate for obvious reasons.
The 4-post has a saddle beam jack, standard stuff for most commercial garages.
It was this the MOT tester used to jack up the front of the car (using jacking points B at the front of the car) and then he tried to use on jacking points A, which caused the front of the car to point at the sky with the rear wheels still on the ramps.
The problem appears to be that jacking points C and D at the rear of the exige are all hidden behind the rear undertray - you have to take the undertray off to get to them in order to jack the rear wheels off the ground safely.
Is there a way to carry out an MOT on a V6 Exige with its rear undertrays still on? The MOT obviously requires wheels off the deck in order to check for suspension play/wheel bearings and the like.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/complai... exists. Lets see how that goes.
BertBert said:
Presumably you have to Jack each side up individually on A and do one side then the other?
Presumably the simplest solution is to book another MoT with somewhere that can do that and get it tested?
Very annoying!
Bert
I've been trying. It's not actually that easy.Presumably the simplest solution is to book another MoT with somewhere that can do that and get it tested?
Very annoying!
Bert
I'm considering taking the rearward part of the undertray off in future to avoid this sort of thing.
stevemcs said:
You cannot take the covers off, that's a 4 post ramp similar to what we have, we haven't had an Exige on it but have a couple of Elises. You can appeal and DVSA will meet you at the test centre. Ours has a saddle beam but i'm sure there would be a way around it.
I've had an elise (S1) before and never had this sort of problem with it because on that car you can actually get the rear wheels off the floor just with jacking points at "A".The current car is a V6 exige, so it's a bit more bum-heavy and has about an extra 8" behind the jacking point, so the balance point is probably further back, behind those jacking points.
I suppose I could put bags of stuff in the footwell?
BertBert said:
What's the objection?
It's just access to remove them -- I don't have any.I don't have ramps and the car has a rear ride height of ~135mm, which is about 5 1/2".
Per Lotus you're not supposed to drive the car with the undertray off.
MOT testers aren't allowed to remove panels as part of the test.
I suppose I could ask to borrow their ramps for a few minutes beforehand to take off the fixings (which are supposed to be renewed every time you remove them, per lotus) and remove the undertray, then a few minutes afterwards to re-fit.
I didn't know this would be a specific problem on the V6 exige -- never had it with my old S1 elise.
Edited by CraigyMc on Thursday 10th September 13:00
jules_s said:
ash73 said:
CraigyMc said:
The problem appears to be that jacking points C and D at the rear of the exige are all hidden behind the rear undertray...
What an idiotic design.Sounds like the MoT tester took umbrage after you told him to stop, so he failed the car.
I'd take it back, show them how to jack it up properly, and ask them to re-do the test.
IIRC you jack using point A on one side only and just chock the opposite rear wheel
I think the problem that may not be apparent is that the extra weight of the V6 exige makes it tip backwards on the A jacking points.
My S1 elise would tip forwards on the same jack points.
The difference is likely the extra 8" of chassis behind the doors in the V6, and the extra weight of the V6/supercharger/bigger brakes+wheels, etc, most of which is rearward of the jacking point on the V6.
GTRene said:
scary stuf those elise/exige cars, although some other cars have also such sort 'problems'
this elise is pretty known
so its good you do some homework before you put your car on such bridge. :-)
en ow, here a example for the lotus
https://howtune.com/articles/124-locating-the-corr...
and pff many other cars had such, also the new C8 corvette...
https://www.google.com/search?q=car+falls+from+lif...
I think that yellow elise is from the US, I remember rearing the story on LotusTalk, the forum started by Randy Chase (ChaseCam guy). IIRC the car was written off?this elise is pretty known
so its good you do some homework before you put your car on such bridge. :-)
en ow, here a example for the lotus
https://howtune.com/articles/124-locating-the-corr...
and pff many other cars had such, also the new C8 corvette...
https://www.google.com/search?q=car+falls+from+lif...
An update from me.
The webform-based appeal for an MOT fail on I submitted on Monday evening resulted in an email back to me on Wednesday (Yesterday) saying someone from the local DVSA area would be in touch.
The local DVSA chap called me up this morning (Thursday) and explained that I still have a valid MOT.
On their system, the MOT was abandoned so the result is null and void, and the printout I was given which states "If this vehicle had an MOT extension in place at the time of the test, it is no longer valid. The vehicle must pass and MOT before it can be used on public roads" is actually wrong. The car can still be driven up to the end of the extension period, which in my case is in December.
I thanked him for his time and told him returning to refund the MOT fee wasn't worth my time (I will be out driving the car on my first week off of 2020, which is this week).
He offered to visit the garage and sort out the "here's how you jack up a car" issue, but upon conversation I suggested this would be slightly unfair on the garage (it's an awkward car, I'll take it somewhere that deals with them frequently, so we don't get a repeat of the problem). Effectively when he told me I still had a valid MOT, that was sorted for me.
'll pay somewhere else for an MOT to be done safely, later in the year.
It's a bit annoying and a waste of my time and £50, but it'll waste time when it's probably raining and I won't be out driving about for fun anyway.
The webform-based appeal for an MOT fail on I submitted on Monday evening resulted in an email back to me on Wednesday (Yesterday) saying someone from the local DVSA area would be in touch.
The local DVSA chap called me up this morning (Thursday) and explained that I still have a valid MOT.
On their system, the MOT was abandoned so the result is null and void, and the printout I was given which states "If this vehicle had an MOT extension in place at the time of the test, it is no longer valid. The vehicle must pass and MOT before it can be used on public roads" is actually wrong. The car can still be driven up to the end of the extension period, which in my case is in December.
I thanked him for his time and told him returning to refund the MOT fee wasn't worth my time (I will be out driving the car on my first week off of 2020, which is this week).
He offered to visit the garage and sort out the "here's how you jack up a car" issue, but upon conversation I suggested this would be slightly unfair on the garage (it's an awkward car, I'll take it somewhere that deals with them frequently, so we don't get a repeat of the problem). Effectively when he told me I still had a valid MOT, that was sorted for me.
'll pay somewhere else for an MOT to be done safely, later in the year.
It's a bit annoying and a waste of my time and £50, but it'll waste time when it's probably raining and I won't be out driving about for fun anyway.
stevemcs said:
The key part is the test was abandoned which means the existing mot is still in place, however if they had completed the test and failed it then it should not leave the test centre until it had been repaired.
The result literally says "fail" in section 7 (which is the result section). It doesn't mention abandonment.Here's a redacted scan of the document I was given on Monday. Would you think the car still had a valid MOT if you were given this?
ash73 said:
CraigyMc said:
He offered to visit the garage and sort out the "here's how you jack up a car" issue, but ... I'll pay somewhere else for an MOT to be done safely, later in the year.
If you went back to the garage with him they could complete the test and pass it, better for the car's history, you save £50 and the next person who rocks up with a Lotus doesn't have to jump through all the same hoops.The £50 isn't nothing but the time is more valuable to me at the moment.
stevemcs said:
CraigyMc said:
The result literally says "fail" in section 7 (which is the result section). It doesn't mention abandonment.
Here's a redacted scan of the document I was given on Monday. Would you think the car still had a valid MOT if you were given this?
No I agree, with that piece of paper i would take that as a fail and do not drive as highlighted in the bold section. However given the test was not completed then i wouldn't have expected to be given a fail sheet either, the test wasn't completed so whatever MOT was in place should still be in effect, I would expect the MOT to confirm that to you or if in doubt ring the DVSA for clarification, it shouldn't be for the customer to deal with. I wouldn't expect you to have to pay either, it wasn't your fault the test was aborted. Given you had paid I would expect the MOT centre to carry out a free test.Here's a redacted scan of the document I was given on Monday. Would you think the car still had a valid MOT if you were given this?
We have seen a couple of local test stations give customer 48 hours to get repairs done or have to go through a full test which effectively forces the customer to have the repairs carried out by garage. We are 10 working days, regardless if we do the repairs, the customer does or another garage does. It makes no difference to us, its just a paper work exercise - as well as checking the repairs are done.
You really should have to be running around like you have, the garage really should have done more to complete the test.
I think in future I'll be putting the car through a Lotus shop, or if I can't do that, I'll be arranging for the rear undertray to come off before and go back on after the MOT.
BertBert said:
CraigyMc said:
My first elise was an S1 in 2002, I never had a problem like this with that car even though the jacking points all look similar on the diagram.
I think the problem that may not be apparent is that the extra weight of the V6 exige makes it tip backwards on the A jacking points.
My S1 elise would tip forwards on the same jack points.
The difference is likely the extra 8" of chassis behind the doors in the V6, and the extra weight of the V6/supercharger/bigger brakes+wheels, etc, most of which is rearward of the jacking point on the V6.
What happens if you ask them to Jack up the whole side as the lotus instructions say you can?I think the problem that may not be apparent is that the extra weight of the V6 exige makes it tip backwards on the A jacking points.
My S1 elise would tip forwards on the same jack points.
The difference is likely the extra 8" of chassis behind the doors in the V6, and the extra weight of the V6/supercharger/bigger brakes+wheels, etc, most of which is rearward of the jacking point on the V6.
I don't know if there's a safe way to jack the car on one side and still jiggle the rear wheels around enough to feel for bearing play etc -- for a start the handbrake would need to be off in order for the wheels to rotate to check the tyres, so I suppose the car would need to be chocked.
I'd be surprised if this wasn't possible though.
BertBert said:
CraigyMc said:
I won't be taking the Lotus back there freely (only if I have a problem) so won't be able to ask for this. I have no problem with them, they just aren't set up for this car.
I don't know if there's a safe way to jack the car on one side and still jiggle the rear wheels around enough to feel for bearing play etc -- for a start the handbrake would need to be off in order for the wheels to rotate to check the tyres, so I suppose the car would need to be chocked.
I'd be surprised if this wasn't possible though.
I'm just curious really as to how it gets done. Either with the under tray off, jacked up one side or other method!I don't know if there's a safe way to jack the car on one side and still jiggle the rear wheels around enough to feel for bearing play etc -- for a start the handbrake would need to be off in order for the wheels to rotate to check the tyres, so I suppose the car would need to be chocked.
I'd be surprised if this wasn't possible though.
Bert
Because the MOT extension is valid, this can actually be any time between now and December.
hyphen said:
CraigyMc said:
The result literally says "fail" in section 7 (which is the result section). It doesn't mention abandonment.
Here's a redacted scan of the document I was given on Monday. Would you think the car still had a valid MOT if you were given this?
If this is showing up on your online MOT History, then keep a link to this thread safe. As a future buyer of your car may query it.Here's a redacted scan of the document I was given on Monday. Would you think the car still had a valid MOT if you were given this?
Buzz84 said:
Don't normally venture into these parts of the forum, but saw this post on the "whats new" and had a read.
I'm sure that even if this "fail" did happen to show up on the MOT history it would be easy to explain to a sensible buyer as it clearly says "unable to jack up car"
Where I work deals with high performance cars, rear-mid engined.
When being worked on the jacking points are in front of the engine. So when on a twin post lift the majority of the weight is hanging out the back. For normal stuff its fine and stable enough. But for anything more substantial the front gets strapped to the lift arms to stabilise the car.
Perhaps something similar could be done to the Lotus to stop it seesawing without having to take off the undertrays. A soft sling from a wheel spoke on each side connected to a ratchet under the lift. This wouldn't put any load on anything not designed for it.
Though it could be a bit of a pain to do this and arrange it with the tester when you could just take it to a specialist (if you have any locally/available) maybe pay a bit more and be done with it...
Interesting idea.I'm sure that even if this "fail" did happen to show up on the MOT history it would be easy to explain to a sensible buyer as it clearly says "unable to jack up car"
Where I work deals with high performance cars, rear-mid engined.
When being worked on the jacking points are in front of the engine. So when on a twin post lift the majority of the weight is hanging out the back. For normal stuff its fine and stable enough. But for anything more substantial the front gets strapped to the lift arms to stabilise the car.
Perhaps something similar could be done to the Lotus to stop it seesawing without having to take off the undertrays. A soft sling from a wheel spoke on each side connected to a ratchet under the lift. This wouldn't put any load on anything not designed for it.
Though it could be a bit of a pain to do this and arrange it with the tester when you could just take it to a specialist (if you have any locally/available) maybe pay a bit more and be done with it...
TBH, I don't think the suspension is designed to take a load in that direction (effectively trying to pull the front wheels off, downwards) but by the same token I'd be shocked if that was a problem given the fact the same suspension has to deal with things like yumps.
I'll bear this in mind in future -- ta.
Buzz84 said:
Though it could be a bit of a pain to do this and arrange it with the tester when you could just take it to a specialist (if you have any locally/available) maybe pay a bit more and be done with it...
I have generally gone to specialists for all my cars but since I have an MOT location literally 2 minutes away from my house versus the nearest specialist which is a 50 minute drive each way, the former means I can get the car done while I'm on a break at work, the latter is really a half or full day off.To me, the money angle isn't the cost of the MOT, it's the opportunity cost of the day off (old jokes about people on PH all being musclebound directors etc etc aside, the day off is more valuable to me than the money).
Also -- the local place had availability when I was free (the specialist is really busy) and until it became clear there was a problem doing it locally, I'd rather have fed the local business.
I've already been convinced to just take the exige to a specialist for the MOT in future.
fridaypassion said:
CraigyMc said:
Lotus (who obviously designed the car) don't agree with you.
Is there any official advice regarding jacking for the purposes of an MOT?Bear in mind I get around 50-60 MOTs per year done specifically on Lotus cars. You stick a rubber chock on the jacking beam and raise the car up un the wishbone under the balljoint or on the edge of the lower part of the wishbone there is a crossmember/gusset on some of the older cars that I think is actually there for this exact purpose. It's not a suitable jacking point for working on the car because the suspension is of course under compression but for the simple purpose of checking the bearings and toe link joints that is how you do it. There simply isn't another way to do it without removing the undertray which is a half hour job on a V6.
A lot of a kerfuffle over absolutely nothing.
Gassing Station | Elise/Exige/Europa/340R | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff