Elise 111S or 111r?

[arbr]

Hi there, guess what: my first post and it involves some buying tips. Guess nobody saw that one coming

I have been doing some research, read a few forums, some buying guides etc. and think i have distilled my search to two serious contenders:

- Lotus Elise 111S
- Lotus Elise 111R

We are talking second hand cars here, so I think it will be something in the make year between 2002 and 2008.

Now, as far as i can work out both cars are rather similar, except of course obvious stuff as 160hp vs 190hp, different gearing which results in the same 0-100km times and a higher top speed for the 111R.

Is this a no-brainer? Go for the obvious choice: POWER! Or is it not that simple?

Are there any potential rookie mistakes i am overlooking? What would you recommend, are both engines reliable? The high-revving 111R sounds great to me, but the whole second camshaft and high-revs also sounds rather risky. Even though it's a Toyota engine, is it up to the task to rev the pants off it for 150.000 miles or more?

Rust probably isn't an issue on an Elise But what is?

Looking forward to some tips, maybe some links to buyer guides I might have missed, any info is more than welcome!

Thanks!!

Edited by arbr on Friday 26th November 23:07

[arbr]

I did some more work going through the forum and have found some things, which may or may not be correct:

- The 111S is lighter than the 111R because it lacks servo assisted brakes, airbags and some other stuff
- The 111R has a turbo-like power delivery due to the power-cam, the 111S is more linear
- The 111S has an engine that must have a belt change every 4 years, regardless of mileage (the 111R has other issues?)
- The price difference between the 111S and 111R is small
- A lot of people seem to prefer the 111S over the 111R as it is a simpler car, straight-forward engine and lighter

Please correct me if i'm wrong...

PS: Isn't there some document online which explains the difference a bit more? I think many people will have to decide between the 111S and 111R and it will result in the same questions over and over again.

[arbr]

I am used to driving 2.0/2.5l turbo engines, so very used to kick-in-the-pants power delivery. Yet i really love engines with nice low end torque and smooth power delivery, it's less dramatic, but better to drive on the road.

Just to specify: the whole 111S vs 111R debate goes a bit further for me. I would be interested in either:

111S 02-06
111R 04-06
R 06->
SC 08->

The current S model seems to deliver just 136hp and that just doesn't do it for me.

I will be using the Elise as a second car, mostly used in weekends for small to medium distance runs. For commuting I will be using a different car, so it's ok if the Lotus is not that practical.

And how about that SC version. Of course a bit more expensive, but is the addition of a supercharger to the second cam effect not too much for regular use?

[arbr]

Thanks for the replies. After searching through the forum I did of course notice a lot of S vs R debates, and of course I read quite a lot of them. Yet, some of these older posts never really apply to the specific information I might need. As you can see I am also open to buy the new R or maybe even the SC. Some posts that I found dated from before the time the current SC model had even been launched.

So thanks for all the positive feedback on this old and probably tiresome topic. It really helps to get all sorts of information from practice, so keep the advice coming!

Maybe a short side-note: I am not from the UK. I live in Holland and I'm afraid that over here we have an extremely limited choice of cars, so I will probably be forced to extend my search into the UK and Germany. It's not really easy to test drive several cars over here, cause there simply is very limited stock available.

That's why any information I can gather from experts before I actually touch a car I might be interested in is very important to me.

Edited by arbr on Saturday 27th November 11:47

[arbr]

For example: a simple question for all the people here, but I am getting confused. I see the terms like ' Tourer, Touring Pack, Stage 2 Lotus Exhaust' and all sorts of other features coming by. I guess that a touring/tourer pack is some sort of options pack which could be ordered? Also, I am guessing that a 'Stage 2' exhaust is probably a factory installed sports exhaust or something?

Were there a lot of options and packs available for the cars and is it common for cars to be tuned straight out of the factory?

[arbr]

We have a similar system over here, I think it is accessible to anyone who would like to buy a car, foreign or not. Isn't possible it for me to get hold of the accident history based on chassis number or something?

I think i know which trader you mean, I will also refrain from naming the company. One thing of course not to be overlooked for UK-cars is the right hand drive 'problem'. The Elise is a small car, so practical issues like getting into a garage or a MacDrive are not too bad. Driving a RHD on the continent does seem to be a bit of strange thing for me. I can get used to stick on the left, but sitting on the right side might result in strange situations.

This only gives me one option: get an LHD. As a result this will limit my search by about 80% and getting a nice example with low mileage in the colour and spec i'd like will be near impossible. Almost all LHD cars seem to be regular Elises or and Elise S. The Elise R that i still see as my preferred car will be hard to find in LHD...

Edited by arbr on Sunday 28th November 22:40

[arbr]

Am I right in thinking this car is a USA import? It is LHD, but has an orange reflector strip which I reckon is a silly American addition?

http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/showDetails.html...

[arbr]

So, if i got this right, the SC is really not an option. It's quite expensive and will just add more power on the second cam. I think the 111R is already hugely powerful compared to the weight of the vehicle. I currently drive cars with around 250ps and 1400/1500kg, so this will be a different experience acceleration and especially grip wise.

Is there really a clear difference between a <2006 and >2006 111R? Does the current R (with the same engine) differ a lot from the 111R in build quality and extra's?

What is the difference of a younger 111R compared to an older one? For example i have seen some interiors with a sort of cloth finish on the dash, where the other are just plain plastic.

For me ABS will really be a plus. TC i can do without. Normally there's only one person to blame when TC would have helped (the driver), but when it comes to ABS there is also a big chance that another person (other drivers) are to blame. Being able to steer whilst braking is such a huge advantage in real life that I really think it is a must-have option...

[arbr]

Another thing that would be quite interesting to know for me is how, if at all, tall people fit inside it? I'm 1.90m (around 6 feet 2 or something?) and I was wondering if it will be possible to drive the Elise properly without chopping a few inches off of my feet and head?

Edited by arbr on Monday 29th November 21:05

[arbr]

Yes, this is something I noticed when watching Clarkson getting in and out of these machines, each time more stupendous and silly. He is a tall guy as well, so apparently you can drive it. I reckon I'm rather slim as well, so I should be fine

The whole LHD/RHD is really getting annoying. A LHD 2006 Elise R is... well almost impossible in Holland. There is one for sale now, which really looks great. Good mileage, the colour is great, looks like a fair car. It was already imported from Germany, but that's no problem. The problem? Look at the silly price tag:

http://www.autotrack.nl/tweedehands/lotus/elise/70...

Actually, now I've had a closer look... It's not even German, it's a US import and it's not a 2006 model, it's a 111R... So that leaves me with no LHD option at all. Great (!). I guess my best option would be to take the car across the channel, book a few hotels and drive around the UK to check some of them out and just deal with the RHD...

Edited by arbr on Monday 29th November 22:29

[arbr]

Duncs: yes, i've been looking over there as well. Some interesting stuff. An LHD conversion might be nice, but the cost will probably be too high to get something back for it. I'll manage with RHD in the end, it's just a matter of resale value I'm afraid of..

The Speedster turbo is a great alternative, it is a Lotus with a GM engine in. In fact it's the same engine that i have in one of my cars right now (Saab 93 Aero). In my Saab it develops around 240bhp because it's tuned (or rather: remapped). To be honest, it's a nice engine, but it really lacks a bit of emotion. It's just heaps and heaps of low-end torque and high power output at high revs, but the sound is soso and the feeling of the engine is a bit tame. It's almost an 'extended diesel', it just delivers power in a huge long punch with an extra kick at around 3500 rpm when the turbo really starts doing it's business. Also, I know for a fact that 240bhp needs 98 or even 100 octane to really work smoothly. With regular 95 there is huge amounts of knock when the turbo pressure is on which almost makes it undriveable as a day-to-day car. The ECU is aggressively trying to correct fuel/air mix and this of course results in terrible performance.

The Toyota engine really gives an extra dimension with the high revs and second cam that the GM block simply won't have. Of course I know only one of the engines really well, the Toyota engine just from word of mouth and youtube

Also, the Speedster is still a rather rare car at around the same cost as an Elise 111R and just slightly cheaper than a 2006/7 Elise R.

[arbr]

Yeah, it's really strange, it seems it's mainly the regular 147hp Speedster that we have available here. By the way: I checked which engine is in a Speedster Turbo and it's not exactly the same GM unit as in the 93 Aero, it's a cast iron block whereas the Saab version is aluminum and a bit more complicated with extra reinforcements. The bore and stroke is exactly the same and the rest of the engine layout seems almost identical, so I reckon it will have a similar delivery of torque and power.

What I find particularly interesting, although it's a bit OT, is that this Ecotec block has been developed by Opel, Saab and guess what... Lotus Engineering! That makes it even more peculiar why Lotus choose to develop the original Elise S2 project (which the speedster is in a way) with the GM block and their own Lotus branded Elise S2 with a Toyota block that they seemingly had nothing to do with...

Concerning RHD to LHD conversion: the cost is around 5000 euro when it is done professionally and will take around 3 weeks. 5000 euro is about the amount that one can save by importing a young Elise R or slightly older 111R from the UK into Holland... So not really that interesting.

[arbr]

The S/C really isn't an option for me as finding a well priced 111R or new R is already a huge task on the continent. In fact: finding one at all is extremely hard. I have found 2 S/C's for sale in Holland, Belgium and Germany... At ridiculous prices of course.

I really think the 111R or new R will be my choice. I have based my choice on:
- The R has more power and more important a 6th gear to reach higher topspeeds (will drive the car in Germany, so 212km/h just won't cut it)
- The R has abs
- The R has a high-revving engine (i love high rpm!)
- The R seems to have a little better suspension on bumps

Now some added criteria for my perfect R. If possible 2006 or younger (so not the 111R but the R):
- Better seats
- Fly-by-wire/redesigned pedal box
- LED taillights

Options:
- Touring pack (will use the car for longer trips, not as daily driver)
- Hardtop (will use it in winter weekends)
- A stage 2 / Larini / whatever brand exhaust (not a hard criterium)
- LHD (would be great, but guess it will be almost impossible with all the other criteria)

Anything missing?

I think that with the stuff above I will have to buy a RHD car, probably import from the UK, or maybe get lucky in Germany.

[arbr]

Thanks. So the seats, what's the exact story here? Can you maybe get a bit more in detail about the whole Probax stuff and the seats that were fitted to a <2006 and >2006 car?

The LED lights are just to make the car easier to sell, it of course does nothing for the driver in any way.

Fly-by-wire is something to avoid if i get you right? I have driven many cars with fly-by-wire and, when applied properly, it's great. Some cars are terrible with FBW because the mapping is just so poor. Sometimes you have to floor them to get any power, sometimes just the lightest touch launches you. Same car, just the ecu deciding you are in a 'sporty' mood or a 'comfort' mood. Very annoying. I guess Lotus has sorted this right?

[arbr]

Sure thing, thanks for the extensive post. Don't get me wrong: I am primarily buying the car for it's driving specs, not for it's bling or toys. But that said, I will be using the Elise for all non-work drives, so I really would like some extra's as I explained before. If i wanted a hardcore circuit car there are options available that are more interesting.

Also thanks for the seat info, cleared that up for me.

I'm not a Grand Prix driver, far from it, but I do have a few years of karting experience, had a tuned 944 turbo (300hp rwd no t/c with a huge turbo lag + kick at 3000rpm) and also did some short courses in basic car control. I can hold a small powerslide, know how to avoid oversteer (main mistake on the road with RWD) and know how to brake/steer in tricky conditions. That's about it. No expert and no novice, i reckon the Elise will be a nice step forward. I never take any silly risks with my cars that can put myself or others in danger.

My idea about the Elise will mainly be enjoying it's superb handling and acceleration out of corners on B-roads. Also I will be using it on the Autobahn at full speed, but I don't consider this fun, it's mainly to get there quicker

[arbr]

The whole autobahn stuff should is rather relative: these days you barely get to cruise above 200kph, it's mainly that the cruise at 200kph should be easily reached and kept. Also from 200 you might sometimes wanna go up to 230/240, but there is almost no space for that these days. Normally you would cruise around 180 and do short stints of 200/220. At the moment I have a Saab 93 Aero with BSR-2 pack as one of my cars which does all this perfectly. It has heaps and heaps of low end torque combined with a lot of top end power. Yet it is of course is a very comfortable car with lots of sound padding etc. At 250kmh it's still very easy to talk to each other, of course this will not be the case in the Elise. The main point here is that the car should be able to go along with the traffic and 6th gear is a must if you ask me...

Still main objective is finding one and using it for acceleration, cornering, fun on B roads, all that stuff that you already actually do 95% of the time. Going fast in a straight line is just as boring as sitting in a traffic jam if you ask me.

The posts so far seem to indicate that 2006+ car clearly isn't a must. The seats aren't that different, the pedal box is ok on both, they both have airbags... One would have to go into meaningless points like LED lights to really find a difference it appears.

So is a loud exhaust something that will add to the fun of driving or is it just unpractical? I've read and seen/heard good things about the Larini, Janspeed and 2Bular, but should i buy a car that has one fitted to it already, or should I leave these ones alone and buy as-stock-as-possible?

[arbr]

Oops, where i said 'they both have airbags', of course i meant they both have ABS. Excuse me. Airbag was already clear for me.

All this has been very insightful so far, real great info. Got me from a total noob into someone who knows what to look for on car classifieds sites. Well a bit, at least

Too bad it's snowing like hell here, will have to postpone a testdrive for a few days. It should be a nice time to buy them though..