Smart Motorway - I'm Confused...

[dr_gn]

My commute is several miles of M1 (J35 - 31) and back. Today I had to extend the return to J37.

From what I've read on the gov. Website, if a gantry shows a limit (eg 60), then from that gantry onwards it's a 60 limit until another limit, or the national speed limit sign appears on a subsequent gantry.

Today, there was 40 limit and the inner lane closed due to a broken down car. There're were no subsequent gantry signs illuminated for the remainder of the smart motorway several junctions further north. Sometimes there is a n.s.l. Sign after a limit, sometimes not.

Some drivers were doing 70+ In the closed lane Immediately after (and in some cases before) the obstruction was passed, despite no further instruction to negate the lower limit, or indicate the blocked lane was open. Others were doing 40.

Apparently people joining at subsequent junctions didn't have a limit or lane block imposed, but I was still doing 40 for a mile or so before giving up and going with the flow, mainly for safety reasons. Some did likewise, some didn't.

It's totally inconsistent - at first I thought it was due to comissioning the system, but apparently not.

What's correct?

[dr_gn]

Yes, I saw the "if nothing displayed..." bit, but then why have the national limit sign displayed at all (which sometimes happens, sometimes doesn't)? That's what is confusing.

Why wouldn't they display the de-restriction sign? Saving power? I thought the whole point of the gantrys was to clearly inform drivers of prevailing limits.

Maybe time to get a dash cam, otherwise there appears to be no way of proving what was displayed should you get caught "speeding".

Edited by dr_gn on Thursday 1st June 07:56

[dr_gn]

Sheepshanks said:

dvenman said:

That'll be interesting the first time someone takes a ticket for that to court...

I might be missing something here, but in what circumstances could it result in a ticket?

If you're doing 70 after a previously displayed lower limit, despite the de-restriction sign not being displayed on subsequent gantries.

[dr_gn]

vonhosen said:

dr_gn said:

Sheepshanks said:

dvenman said:

That'll be interesting the first time someone takes a ticket for that to court...

I might be missing something here, but in what circumstances could it result in a ticket?

If you're doing 70 after a previously displayed lower limit, despite the de-restriction sign not being displayed on subsequent gantries.

Without the lower limit being displayed on subsequent gantries you aren't going to get that ticket.

Then why display the national speed limit on gantries at all?

On the stretch of motorway I use, there is no default - sometimes there's nothing after a restriction, sometimes there's the national speed limit.

What about lane closures - when do you assume the lane is re-opened, if nothing is displayed on subsequent gantries? The next blank gantry? Or - as happens sometimes - speed limits shown for all lanes again?

Another anomaly is restrictions on Tinsley viaduct for high winds - a few weeks back there was a 40 limit before the viaduct, and again immediately after, despite there being no issue after the viaduct. In that case the national speed limit was displayed about a mile further on. Crazy.

It's as if the people operating the signs have no clue about the reality of what's happening - similar to the matrix signs which inform you of non-exsistant hazards.

Edited by dr_gn on Thursday 1st June 11:10

[dr_gn]

essayer said:

Looks like legislation is defined per section of motorway
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/909/regula...

"(2) A section of road is subject to a variable speed limit in relation to a vehicle being driven on it if—
(a)the road is specified in the Schedule;
(b)the vehicle has passed a speed limit sign; and
(c)the vehicle has not passed—
(i)another speed limit sign indicating a different speed limit; or
(ii)a traffic sign which indicates that the national speed limit is in force."

So I infer from this that a blank sign cannot indicate the end of the section..and the lower limit applies until reaching a sign displaying the contrary or the section covered by legislation ends..?

So me travelling at 40mph as per the last illuminated sign, while most others were doing 70mph plus, is probably correct, despite undoubtedly being a hazard, (particularly since HGV's were moving to lane 2 to avoid me on a busy stretch)?

In other words I have a choice of potentially causing an accident (due to me driving within the law), or getting a ticket due to speeding?

Edited by dr_gn on Thursday 1st June 12:00

[dr_gn]

vonhosen said:

dr_gn said:

essayer said:

Looks like legislation is defined per section of motorway
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/909/regula...

"(2) A section of road is subject to a variable speed limit in relation to a vehicle being driven on it if—
(a)the road is specified in the Schedule;
(b)the vehicle has passed a speed limit sign; and
(c)the vehicle has not passed—
(i)another speed limit sign indicating a different speed limit; or
(ii)a traffic sign which indicates that the national speed limit is in force."

So I infer from this that a blank sign cannot indicate the end of the section..and the lower limit applies until reaching a sign displaying the contrary or the section covered by legislation ends..?

So me travelling at 40mph as per the last illuminated sign, while most others were doing 70mph plus, is probably correct, despite undoubtedly being a hazard, (particularly since HGV's were moving to lane 2 to avoid me on a busy stretch)?

In other words I have a choice of potentially causing an accident (due to me driving within the law), or getting a ticket due to speeding?

Only from a practical point you won't get a ticket where you've passed the gantries which aren't illuminated, so that choice won't exist.

OK, I'm assuming you're a policeman or have direct knowledge of how these things are intended to operate.

Officially though, these two official government guidelines directly contradict each other:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-drive-on-a-smar...

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/909/regula...

Not sure how this is possible considering the amount of time, money, resource and inconvenience to drivers it's taken to get this stretch of motorway "upgraded".

[dr_gn]

That's progress folks!

The first few times it happened I thought I'd missed a sign somewhere, but after a few times it happened I thought I'd just not kept up with the Highway Code. On the face of it, it seems like there is some ambiguity.

[dr_gn]

On my commute I've noticed that the majority of people joining the 4 lane bits (where the slip road becomes lane 1) immediately move into lane 2 as for a normal slip road, irrespective of need. This invariably leaves lane 1 almost empty.

I've learned to treat anyone joining from that junction (34) as a potential psychopath. I've seen countless near misses, all of which were unnecessary.

[dr_gn]

turbojay555 said:

dr_gn said:

My commute is several miles of M1 (J35 - 31) and back. Today I had to extend the return to J37.

From what I've read on the gov. Website, if a gantry shows a limit (eg 60), then from that gantry onwards it's a 60 limit until another limit, or the national speed limit sign appears on a subsequent gantry.

Today, there was 40 limit and the inner lane closed due to a broken down car. There're were no subsequent gantry signs illuminated for the remainder of the smart motorway several junctions further north. Sometimes there is a n.s.l. Sign after a limit, sometimes not.

Some drivers were doing 70+ In the closed lane Immediately after (and in some cases before) the obstruction was passed, despite no further instruction to negate the lower limit, or indicate the blocked lane was open. Others were doing 40.

Apparently people joining at subsequent junctions didn't have a limit or lane block imposed, but I was still doing 40 for a mile or so before giving up and going with the flow, mainly for safety reasons. Some did likewise, some didn't.

It's totally inconsistent - at first I thought it was due to comissioning the system, but apparently not.

What's correct?

The smart motorway finishes at j35a northbound anyway, and straight after that juction there is a permanent nsl sign on the verge saying end of variable limit, so if you passed that juction on your way up to j37 then you also passed the nsl sign.
Also a lot of the gantries don't have speed cameras so people will get straight back up to speed.

The permanent nsl sign after J35a isn't the issue, it's perfectly clear what applies after that.

The broken down vehicle was just after J34 (Meadowhall), it's over 4 miles, and many gantries before the end of the smart motorway (after J35a). It was probably 6 or 7 miles between the first 40mph smart sign warning of the obstruction (well before Tinsley viaduct IIRC), and the end of the smart motorway. That's a lot of gantries not displaying anything at all, and a lot of drivers being confused as to what speed they should be driving at. There was also no 'official' re-opening of the closed lane either (I'd expected the next gantry to show nsl on all four lanes after the obstruction).

Another issue is that if you join northbound at J35, the only speed limit on joining is a matrix sign at the exit of the junction roundabout (which I believe is advisory). So in theory, if there's, say, a 40mph limit on the smart motorway, you could, based on what you can see and prevailing traffic conditions, ignore the advisory matrix sign (which may/may not advise 40mph), and join at 70mph and immediately get done by a traffic officer.

Its all very poorly thought out and managed as far as I can see. The two conflicting accounts of where and when speed limits apply in the gov.uk documents linked previously appear to prove this.